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Thread: Trade Jose at the height of his value

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorboy wrote: View Post
    Totally agree...Jose is a legit starter and a superb team player. He is a great leader and it will be a great loss for the Raptors when he leaves. It would be great to see him stay and finish career with Raps but it will not happen. He has proven himself time after time only to watch management look for other solutions at PG. Only when he leaves will we truly realize what we lost.

    Jose vs. Ford = Jose
    Jose vs Jack = Jose
    Jose vs Bayless = Jose
    Jose vs Lowry = Jose

    If he could not prove himself to management after this what else could he do. The damage is done. We are losing Jose and will regret it.
    Jose vs Lowry is still pending I would say. I'd like to see the team play with Lowry at point minus Bargs.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote knowledgep wrote: View Post
    Jose vs Lowry is still pending I would say. I'd like to see the team play with Lowry at point minus Bargs.
    He did get a chance, against Houston this year. He had 7pts, 5asts, 8rbs but shot 3/10 and was a -17. I'm not sure if he was playing injured or not though, but he did get a chance to show his stuff without Bargnani in the lineup, and they lost by 16.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Obviously Jose will have an edge over Lowry when it comes to maturity.


    OTOH, Lowry is young, as he grows more mature and understands his strengths that quantity should only grow, while Jose's age will continue to limit him.

    I personaly think its beneficial for Lowry's growth to be here at this time.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Thu Dec 20th, 2012 at 12:35 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote raptors98 wrote: View Post
    Even with our nice 4 game streak, the raps aren't going to do anything this season. If we trade Calderon now, we could get some valuable assets, and maybe still sign him at the end of the season.
    Some reasonable deals I like:

    Package Jose and Bargnani for Kings first rounder (2013 or 2014), Aaron Brooks and Thompson.
    Calderon to Memphis for Wrotten, and Speights
    Calderon to Dallas for 2013 first rounder(might be lotto) and jae crowder

    I especially like the last deal - especially cause it could definitely happen.
    Your potential deals?
    It is time to make a move....

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    He did get a chance, against Houston this year. He had 7pts, 5asts, 8rbs but shot 3/10 and was a -17. I'm not sure if he was playing injured or not though, but he did get a chance to show his stuff without Bargnani in the lineup, and they lost by 16.
    oh we should trade him then, blow it up. That ONE game this season tells the whole story...

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    He did get a chance, against Houston this year. He had 7pts, 5asts, 8rbs but shot 3/10 and was a -17. I'm not sure if he was playing injured or not though, but he did get a chance to show his stuff without Bargnani in the lineup, and they lost by 16.
    How many times have they lost by double digits with Calderon starting?

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    It is time to make a move....
    i don't like any of those deals above, although i think it's time to trade Calderon, he's an expiring veteran presence playing very well. He's an asset we need to move. 1 step back, 2 steps forward...

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    He did get a chance, against Houston this year. He had 7pts, 5asts, 8rbs but shot 3/10 and was a -17. I'm not sure if he was playing injured or not though, but he did get a chance to show his stuff without Bargnani in the lineup, and they lost by 16.
    Was he healthy? I don't think he has been near 100% since the first 3 games of the season. Came back too soon, overextended himself trying to carry the team, and in doing so made himself look selfish and lacking confidence in teammates.

    Definitely excited to see him come back and work with the youth on this team.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Rookie Raptorboy's Avatar
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    Quote knowledgep wrote: View Post
    Jose vs Lowry is still pending I would say. I'd like to see the team play with Lowry at point minus Bargs.
    I hope Lowry can make us come out of our seats when he gets back. Not sure if the early season injury put out his fire or what but hes not the same guy who was ready to take the reins and will the team to victory.

    Jose has been doing a very good job of getting everyone involved. He might not be the most athletic PG but hes a world class decision maker. Our young bigs are getting excellent experience playing with Jose. Demar is starting to click with him as well. The winning is a bonus of sorts. Player development should be our #1 concern. Jose is an excellent facilitator and perfect candidate to help our young players improve.
    Last edited by Raptorboy; Thu Dec 20th, 2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason: sounds better

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Since Raps. don't have a 1st round pick next year, they should definitely try to acquire one. I don't think trading Jose will help them acquire one though. Trading Lowry will. That's what I think they should do. Get creative and package a big contract along with him for a 2013 1st rounder and a useful piece/s. The PG situation can be addressed in the off-season.
    Lowry can't even be traded this season because we acquired him this season. It sucks because he could bring in real value.

  11. #51
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    He did get a chance, against Houston this year. He had 7pts, 5asts, 8rbs but shot 3/10 and was a -17. I'm not sure if he was playing injured or not though, but he did get a chance to show his stuff without Bargnani in the lineup, and they lost by 16.
    You probably mean the Memphis game (night after the Houston game... Bargnani got 31 minutes against the Rockets). Either way, one game is far too early to write off the idea of a Lowry-led team without Bargs, especially when that game was on the road, on the second night of a back-to-back, against one of the best teams in the league.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Bargnani played in the Houston game. It was the next game against Memphis that Bargnani missed.

    I don't think anyone can come to a conclusion about how well Lowry does or doesn't fit in one game, let alone against one of the best teams in the league.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote knowledgep wrote: View Post
    oh we should trade him then, blow it up. That ONE game this season tells the whole story...
    LOL! I know was just a one game sample that could mean nothing. I would love for Lowry to play like I think he can play without Bargnani shooting bricks. I just don't want to see Kyle and Jose playing together at the same time.

    Houston last year had a very mediocre team but they were playing .500 ball. Lowry is not a liability. I suspect he was playing injured, although it was against the team that traded him so I was hoping for better effort. 8 boards is pretty awesome though.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Bargnani played in the Houston game. It was the next game against Memphis that Bargnani missed.

    I don't think anyone can come to a conclusion about how well Lowry does or doesn't fit in one game, let alone against one of the best teams in the league.
    Crap you're right... I was staring at the boxscore too, but for some reason I assumed it was the Houston game.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Funny to read all these sentimental comments about Jose's leadership, being a pro and other soft-feelings drama. Cut this bull; do what's best for this team and trade him (if there is a good player/high pick coming back). Quite honestly I do not care in which uniform he retires and where his kids go to school. He's a back up point guard in this league. We need Lowry to come back and play the way he can. Yes, sometimes selfish ball. Amir, Ed and Val will fight and get their own. That's their current game.

    Unfortunately, I do not think we'll get a fist rounder for Calderon like the author of this thread is suggesting. He's playing well lately, but I do not think any GM will put a 1st rounder on a table. They might be willing to take back Barg with him as a package... but not for a 1st round pick.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    Funny to read all these sentimental comments about Jose's leadership, being a pro and other soft-feelings drama. Cut this bull; do what's best for this team and trade him (if there is a good player/high pick coming back). Quite honestly I do not care in which uniform he retires and where his kids go to school. He's a back up point guard in this league.
    Kyle Lowry: 375 games played; 154 starts (41.1%)
    Jose Calderon: 507 games played; 305 starts (60.2%)
    your pal,
    ebrian

  17. #57
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    I think the debate as to whether Calderon or Lowry should be traded is sort of futile. Whether their departure from this team would be beneficial or not entirely depends on what this team gets in return, whereas the departure of Bargnani from this team would be beneficial in basically in any manifestation. This is because the presence of Calderon and Lowry on this roster is overall positive, whereas the presence of Bargnani on this roster is overall negative.

    But I would be open to the idea of trading Calderon or Lowry because they are not directly tied in with what seems to be the future of this team, ie. DeMar, Val, ED and Ross.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Kyle Lowry: 375 games played; 154 starts (41.1%)
    Jose Calderon: 507 games played; 305 starts (60.2%)
    The matter of fact that Calderon has started more games than Lowry has nothing to do with talent or ability to take it to the next level. In this regard Lowry can still develop into an elite pg. He's never going to be CP3 or Rondo (and yeah, Rondo is an elite pg now; I remember only last year ppl here threw him under the bridge). He just does not have the passing/court vision (and not going to learn that); however, he can become a poor's man Westbrook. He isn't far now.

    The stat you have brought up is irrelevant. I was referring to the overall skill level of Calderon, and not just with the Raps. Fact is, he wouldn't start on the majority of the teams and he wouln't have started so many games on a good team. I think it's clear. If anything, this stat points to the fact that the Raps have never had a solid point guard since Damon.

  19. #59
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    There is a controversy so its really to late to claim there shouldn't be. But to the bold, the correlation between Jose being on the team and the team not winning is so incredibly low its not even worth arguing. The low emphasis this team has had on him and his role on this team has always made him an under utilized player. Mistakenly so at that. The question should be "can or will this team be able to win with Jose", not "we haven't won with him so he should be traded". (and just to point out saying Jose is like the Nelsons or Chalmers of the league clearly points out that the team therefore can win with him)

    I'm not against trading Jose, but I think as someone said before it has to be for the right package. Trading him is not a necessity and its not essential. Its an option. Thats all.
    Either I'm not explaining myself or you're not understanding my point. (It's probably the first one to tell u the truth)

    What I am saying is exactly what you point out the end. Its an option. But when you evaluate it there is really no debating.

    At this point, as far as where we are and who we have at that position we should. And there should be no question based on our performance as a team with him as a starter.

    There is a reason why I picked Nelson and chalmers as example and it wasn't so I could make ur point for u. The reason why is because like these players, Jose is not a game changer. I think that he could win if he played on a team with lebron and wade, but who wouldnt? bottom line: He doesn't lose us games or seasons, but he doesn't win them either.

    Again this thread is about trading Jose at the height of his value. If you can get a solid player at the wing or a draft pick or whatever for essentially a jameer Nelson, then do it instead of holding on to the idea that we should keep him like he will make a difference. He won't.

    I don't see how anyone can argue with this point. We have years of proof.

  20. #60
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    in 2007/08 Toronto played .500 ball exactly.

    The team was 28 and 28 with Jose as a starter, and 13 and 13 with TJ as a starter. Where's the correlation? Or do you mean the NEXT season when Colangelo fired Smitch promoted Triano, moved Bargnani into a heavier roll, traded for O'Neal and then Marion, had no back up PG and the team played 5-9 ( 35% winning) without Jose, and 28 - 40 (41%) with him? That correlation?
    Again proving what I am saying above. Jose has no impact on the season positively or negatively. That's all I am saying. If you can get a player who can impact the game then he is the best trade chip available besides our young guys.

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