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Thread: Trade Jose at the height of his value

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    The matter of fact that Calderon has started more games than Lowry has nothing to do with talent or ability to take it to the next level. In this regard Lowry can still develop into an elite pg. He's never going to be CP3 or Rondo (and yeah, Rondo is an elite pg now; I remember only last year ppl here threw him under the bridge). He just does not have the passing/court vision (and not going to learn that); however, he can become a poor's man Westbrook. He isn't far now.

    The stat you have brought up is irrelevant. I was referring to the overall skill level of Calderon, and not just with the Raps. Fact is, he wouldn't start on the majority of the teams and he wouln't have started so many games on a good team. I think it's clear. If anything, this stat points to the fact that the Raps have never had a solid point guard since Damon.
    I don't think I could disagree with you more regarding Jose's ability to be a successful starter... If you took Jose right now, and dropped him back in time on any of the NBA champions in the last 5 years, he would have been a starter on most.

    2012 - Miami - They started: Mario Chalmers... this is a no-brainer
    2011 - Dallas - They started: Jason Kidd... in this case, Kidd gets the nod, but Calderon is a superior offensive player at this stage of their careers.
    2010 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... Jose, by a lot.
    2009 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... rinse, repeat
    2008 - Celtics - They started: Rajon Rondo... Rondo is obviously now, a waaayyy better player than Jose, but rookie rondo vs. current Jose? I'd say 2012 Jose. Rondo couldn't hit a shot to save his life as a rookie.

    Fact is, Jose's overall skill is very good. I would even say that Jose is even an elite shooter/distributor. He just doesn't have the foot speed or defensive capabilities to actually be considered an elite point guard.

    That said, if the right deal comes along, of course, Jose should be traded, just like any other player on this team.

  2. #62
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    Quote raptors98 wrote: View Post
    Even with our nice 4 game streak, the raps aren't going to do anything this season. If we trade Calderon now, we could get some valuable assets, and maybe still sign him at the end of the season.
    Some reasonable deals I like:

    Package Jose and Bargnani for Kings first rounder (2013 or 2014), Aaron Brooks and Thompson.
    Calderon to Memphis for Wrotten, and Speights
    Calderon to Dallas for 2013 first rounder(might be lotto) and jae crowder

    I especially like the last deal - especially cause it could definitely happen.
    Your potential deals?
    YES FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. TRADE HIM!!!

    Being a contender is about everybody peaking at the right time. Look at what the Jay's are doing. Their time is now and they realize it.
    This is not our year, nor is next year, or the one after. Trade him for as much young talent and picks as you can get. Never mind where we end up in the lottery this year. We won't be bottom three and we're not making the playoffs so that pick is gone and should be irrelevant to our decision making.

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Had Detroit been an actual good opponent the game quite likely could have turned out differently.


    The play of the Raptors down the stretch highlighted two major concerns offensively with the Raptors:

    1) few, if anyone, can regularly create off the dribble.

    2) when the shots stop falling, the Raptors often go on long droughts of not scoring. Versus Detroit in the 4th they went from 10:13-7:03 scoring just 2 points until Anderson's 3; then from Anderson's 2nd 3 at 6:24 the Raps go until 2:28 and Jose's 3 before they score again. During that second stretch of time they missed 3-three pointers and a 21-foot jumper and the shot they did make was yet again another long shot.


    The Raptors were stone cold from the outside. That happens. When the jumpers are going down, all is good. But when the jumpers fail to fall, what then? What then indeed.


    Lowry is a guy who can break in to the heart of the zone defense and get something at the rim something Toronto has lacked for quite some time. I am not ready to cast him off yet - hell, I waited 7 years on Bargnani. I can certainly give Lowry more than 7 weeks especially considering he has been injured 6 straight/11 total and clearly played 12 games not healthy.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    I don't think I could disagree with you more regarding Jose's ability to be a successful starter... If you took Jose right now, and dropped him back in time on any of the NBA champions in the last 5 years, he would have been a starter on most.

    2012 - Miami - They started: Mario Chalmers... this is a no-brainer
    2011 - Dallas - They started: Jason Kidd... in this case, Kidd gets the nod, but Calderon is a superior offensive player at this stage of their careers.
    2010 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... Jose, by a lot.
    2009 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... rinse, repeat
    2008 - Celtics - They started: Rajon Rondo... Rondo is obviously now, a waaayyy better player than Jose, but rookie rondo vs. current Jose? I'd say 2012 Jose. Rondo couldn't hit a shot to save his life as a rookie.

    Fact is, Jose's overall skill is very good. I would even say that Jose is even an elite shooter/distributor. He just doesn't have the foot speed or defensive capabilities to actually be considered an elite point guard.

    That said, if the right deal comes along, of course, Jose should be traded, just like any other player on this team.
    Finally some healthy discussion... let's entertain your comparisons:

    The first point I will make is that you have compared only one aspect of the game - and its the offense. You have completely neglected the other 50% and that is the defense. And I would argue that all the players you have listed are better defenders. Yes, even Chalmers.

    Second point... well, lets discuss offense. Yes, Chalmers is a no brainer... but so are the other 29 point guards in the entire league on Heat right now. Jose over Chalmers is an upgrade (I'd give you that) of a very small percentage, compared to the other pieces on the Miami roster. Jason Kidd... c'mon he's one of the great point guards in the last decade, at least in my books. I've always loved his game. Took NJ to the finals twice and has not lost much since. Definitely a contributor on the Mavs championship team. Fisher... hm, this is interesting. How many game winners has Fish hit? And that one in the corner against the spurs... do you think Jose would have connected? We do not know... and again, his D is way better. And he's buddies with Kobe and was instrumental on those championship teams. Maybe not in the stats line... Oh, and Rondo - yeah, couldn't hit a shot, but was still very effective offensively distributing to the the big 3.

    This is a pg league now with the young Walls, Irving, Curry, Bledsoe (yeah, I like him too!). Plug Jose into all the teams right now. How many would he start on? And yeah, what I am trying to say is that I'd rather have all the above + all the established PGs over Calderon. And yes, Lowry too.

    Just to be clear, I do not hate Jose. I enjoy his leadership and value his effort on the court. With his limited athletic abilities he tries hard (unlike #7). I conclude the same; trade him if the right deal comes along; if not, re-sign him for cheap in the off-season.

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Had Detroit been an actual good opponent the game quite likely could have turned out differently.


    The play of the Raptors down the stretch highlighted two major concerns offensively with the Raptors:

    1) few, if anyone, can regularly create off the dribble.

    2) when the shots stop falling, the Raptors often go on long droughts of not scoring. Versus Detroit in the 4th they went from 10:13-7:03 scoring just 2 points until Anderson's 3; then from Anderson's 2nd 3 at 6:24 the Raps go until 2:28 and Jose's 3 before they score again. During that second stretch of time they missed 3-three pointers and a 21-foot jumper and the shot they did make was yet again another long shot.


    The Raptors were stone cold from the outside. That happens. When the jumpers are going down, all is good. But when the jumpers fail to fall, what then? What then indeed.


    Lowry is a guy who can break in to the heart of the zone defense and get something at the rim something Toronto has lacked for quite some time. I am not ready to cast him off yet - hell, I waited 7 years on Bargnani. I can certainly give Lowry more than 7 weeks especially considering he has been injured 6 straight/11 total and clearly played 12 games not healthy.

    Further to this post, check the shot chart for the 4th quarter: http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotch...meId=400278086


    Breakdown:

    12 3-point shots (3 made)
    2 long 2's (0 made)
    5 shots in the key (1 made)
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #66
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    I don't think I could disagree with you more regarding Jose's ability to be a successful starter... If you took Jose right now, and dropped him back in time on any of the NBA champions in the last 5 years, he would have been a starter on most.

    2012 - Miami - They started: Mario Chalmers... this is a no-brainer
    2011 - Dallas - They started: Jason Kidd... in this case, Kidd gets the nod, but Calderon is a superior offensive player at this stage of their careers.
    2010 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... Jose, by a lot.
    2009 - Lakers - They started: Derek Fisher... rinse, repeat
    2008 - Celtics - They started: Rajon Rondo... Rondo is obviously now, a waaayyy better player than Jose, but rookie rondo vs. current Jose? I'd say 2012 Jose. Rondo couldn't hit a shot to save his life as a rookie.

    Fact is, Jose's overall skill is very good. I would even say that Jose is even an elite shooter/distributor. He just doesn't have the foot speed or defensive capabilities to actually be considered an elite point guard.

    That said, if the right deal comes along, of course, Jose should be traded, just like any other player on this team.
    You're horribly wrong about this

    2012 - Chalmers because the two best players in the league are bringing the ball up and passing around. Chalmers fit perfectly due to his ability to shoot 3's and aggressive defense, especially jumping passes, because Lebron, Wade, Bosh had it covered if he went for the steal and missed.
    2011 - Kidd was an integral part of that team and a true leader, Calderon takes a seat behind JJ because he doesn't add a spark the way Berea does.
    2010 - What the hell do the Lakers need from Calderon? Fisher fit perfectly beside Kobe the same way Harper did beside Jordan. You don't need a guy who handles the ball for 17 seconds of the clock when you have Kobe on your team, you need a dependable guy who can bail you out when the double comes on Kobe and plays strong D.
    2008 - Rondo is to Calderon what Jordan was to Glen Rice. Sure you put up numbers in one category that weren't that far off but ain't no one in their right mind even making a comparison to who's the better all around player.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Not going to get into the Lowry/Calderon debate, but I don't think this will really drive Calderon's value up that much in the league. The teams that want him now are the teams who always wanted him (Lakers, Mavs) and they still don't have anything that the Raptors really need or should want. It doesn't matter how good Calderon plays, I don't see teams that have the type of young prospects and high picks that the Raps should be looking for getting into the bidding. If the Raptors don't get a really good deal that makes sense for them, I think they should just hold on to Jose and get the cap relief themselves. If all it's going to be is middle of the road players on longer contracts and low picks coming back, I think there's more value in holding on to Calderon. Jose's doing a good job getting the young guys some easy looks, and I think this season's focus should be all about developing those players going forward.

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Or Derrick Williams.
    Yes. That might work for both teams.

  9. #69
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Had Detroit been an actual good opponent the game quite likely could have turned out differently.


    The play of the Raptors down the stretch highlighted two major concerns offensively with the Raptors:

    1) few, if anyone, can regularly create off the dribble.

    2) when the shots stop falling, the Raptors often go on long droughts of not scoring. Versus Detroit in the 4th they went from 10:13-7:03 scoring just 2 points until Anderson's 3; then from Anderson's 2nd 3 at 6:24 the Raps go until 2:28 and Jose's 3 before they score again. During that second stretch of time they missed 3-three pointers and a 21-foot jumper and the shot they did make was yet again another long shot.


    The Raptors were stone cold from the outside. That happens. When the jumpers are going down, all is good. But when the jumpers fail to fall, what then? What then indeed.


    Lowry is a guy who can break in to the heart of the zone defense and get something at the rim something Toronto has lacked for quite some time. I am not ready to cast him off yet - hell, I waited 7 years on Bargnani. I can certainly give Lowry more than 7 weeks especially considering he has been injured 6 straight/11 total and clearly played 12 games not healthy.
    Lowry, unlike AB, will be able to adjust to the needs of our team.

  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Lowry, unlike AB, will be able to adjust to the needs of our team.
    I believe this is true.

  11. #71
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    Default Retire Jose's number

    The Raps should not trade Jose. he should be kept and hopefully 1) resigned at to a reasonable contract
    2) finish his career as a Raptor
    3) have his number retired for all he has given the team with all the crap he has had to listen to / read.

    PG is the toughest position. we have 2 good ones. Why would we want to weaken the roster by bringing in a weaker player at that spot? I believe all the other players have NO PROBLEM with Jose and what he brings. It's just the bloggers who want to knit pick and can't appreciate what he does for this group. Making others better is a VERY SPECIAL talent.

  12. #72
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    Thought this was interesting, from the morning roundup on the front of the site http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=412025:
    "According to 82games.com, Lowry is letting up a 17.7 PER to opposing point guards and the team is sacrificing 6.7 points per 100 possessions more when he is on the floor versus Calderon who is letting up a 14.0 PER to opposing point guards and the team is sacrificing 4.7 points per 100 possessions LESS when he is on the floor. Chew on that nugget for a second."

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote:
    Lowry, unlike AB, will be able to adjust to the needs of our team.
    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I believe this is true.
    Why? Lowry and Bargnani have both been in the league now for 7 years. What makes Lowry so special that he's willing to change his game now? Does he have a proven track record of being understanding and excited to do things for the team rather than for himself?
    your pal,
    ebrian

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Why? Lowry and Bargnani have both been in the league now for 7 years. What makes Lowry so special that he's willing to change his game now? Does he have a proven track record of being understanding and excited to do things for the team rather than for himself?
    Does Primo PastaBoy have a proven track record of being understanding and excited to do things for the team either???

    Does rebounds, assists, taking charges, getting steals, and blocking shots count as things that help your team??

    Bargnani doesn't do any of those things well...... sorry! Time to be the best 6th or 7th man on the team or get traded BARGS! I hope your right and he's a team player so that we can continue to see the primo pasta commercials. Its really funny - he seems to enjoy his pasta on the court! LOL Its on repeat on Raptors NBA TV

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    12 3-point shots (3 made)
    2 long 2's (0 made)
    5 shots in the key (1 made)
    Hey Matt, have you ever checked what his the shot breakdown with Bargnani on and off the floor? Does better spacing create additional inside opportunities?

    I am focusing more on open/guarded looks this year and specifically as it relates to the Cavaliers and their opponents. The Cavaliers have two players, Kyrie Irving and Tristan Thompson, who are very good in one side of the court and bad in the other. Very interesting stuff if you're into charting games.

  16. #76
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Does Primo PastaBoy have a proven track record of being understanding and excited to do things for the team either???

    Does rebounds, assists, taking charges, getting steals, and blocking shots count as things that help your team??

    Bargnani doesn't do any of those things well...... sorry! Time to be the best 6th or 7th man on the team or get traded BARGS! I hope your right and he's a team player so that we can continue to see the primo pasta commercials. Its really funny - he seems to enjoy his pasta on the court! LOL Its on repeat on Raptors NBA TV
    I really hate doing this, but you really need to learn how to read. Go back through the thread and read again. And then you can delete your post. Too much eggnog? LMAO.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Hey Matt, have you ever checked what his the shot breakdown with Bargnani on and off the floor? Does better spacing create additional inside opportunities?

    I am focusing more on open/guarded looks this year and specifically as it relates to the Cavaliers and their opponents. The Cavaliers have two players, Kyrie Irving and Tristan Thompson, who are very good in one side of the court and bad in the other. Very interesting stuff if you're into charting games.
    I have not checked the shot charts with Bargnani on and off.

    I'm not sure how Bargnani makes a difference here though. In the Detroit game the Raptors had plenty of wide open looks as they had Kleiza playing mini-Bargnani. The issue was the wide open shots weren't falling and against the zone they had no other options other than to keep shooting as no one could get in to the key. Ball movement was good. The only way I think Bargnani could have helped here was if he made the shots.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #78
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I really hate doing this, but you really need to learn how to read. Go back through the thread and read again. And then you can delete your post. Too much eggnog? LMAO.
    The company party is CRAYYY ...no eggnog tho! I get it.....just being devils advocate.....your probably like me and wouldnt care if either gets traded.... RIGHT?

    I honestly think we need to give Lowry more than a few months dont you?? Andrea had 7 seasons with the RAPTORS....

    P.s. - what makes lowry special is the fact that he works his ass OFF. Unlike Andrea who many fans think is lazy, indifferent, coddled, etc.

  19. #79
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    Jose is looking good just because other teammate keep moving. However, our last 2 team leader, CB4 or AB7 most of time not play P&R with him to attack the board, but just waiting for Jose to fed them to make JS oustide. It just waste him on off. and only show his weakest on one on one D.

    If we really want to keep Jose, number one thing should fire BC, coz i don't think Jose has too much trust on BC, a person whose to trade him out again and again. Number 2, just Lowry and AB7 to get trade a pick or a star could able to work with the PG.

  20. #80
    Raptors Republic Rookie Th0m79's Avatar
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    I don't think we should trade him. He's been key to our success this year, and having him on the roster always seems to give us an advantage at point guard over many other teams, especially when he's runnig the second unit. If we can get him signed to a reasonable deal in the offseason I say keep him all the way. That way, we have a solid, reliable PG who can run our offense and who already has great chemistry with many of our guys.
    I think he's earned another contract, especially since he's always been professional and a good leader for our guys.

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