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Thread: Lowry. Bargnani and the new Raptors

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    The way it should have been from day one. Crazy to have Jose playing SG with his play-making ability.
    even going back to 2009/10 with Hedo and the 3 ball handler line up, what never made sense to me is why take away Jose greatest strength? Jose can shoot, but he's not a shooter. What he is a playmaker, and he's not going to make plays without the ball in his hands. If Jose is on the floor he should be the PG. If he isn't going to be the PG don't put him on the floor.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    People need to relax. The only difference between the shots that Kyle Lowry took before his first injury and after are that they went in. It's like Alan Anderson if the shots his been taking lately weren't going in everybody would be calling him a chucker. People in this forum are so not used to having a player that's not afraid of the big moment. Like it or not Lowry is are best player production wise, talent wise and toughness wise. This what good players do they take shots that average player are scared of taking. Don't tell me Calderon does that all the time too. It's easy to take a shot when the ball is passed out to with the clock going down and you don't even have to think about it. What do you guys think "closers"? Players that are willing to take shot knowing if they miss it's on them. It's takes guts to live with that and too keep taking those shots.

    I don't want to take anything away from Calderon cause, his playing extremely well. Lets not start a debate here. There is no way Calderon will survive through this PG. The PG slayer has finally met his match.
    Youve got a lot of +1s for this point ... but heres another. Im calling AA a chucker as is, cause I just dont think he has the talent to keep hitting these shots.

    One other point that I havent heard much about is the Raps seem to be running a better offense the last few games. They run their wings around a few screens to start each play .. work the ball from side to side and even pull out a little old school weave with their perimeter guys from time to time. When KL was playing we had the ridiculous pic n pop with AB/AJ/JV offense. The ball went from PG to screener and thats about it, while 2/3 sat in the corner/wing. As a result, KL was stuck in late shock clock situations and this fed right into his chucker mentality. Hopefully with greater movement and ball reversal, KL will fare better.

    One thing I will say in JOse's defense .. is he does seem to have figured out the true pick n roll (not the bs pic n pop) with JV, Ed and AJ (he always had it with AJ). Its got us a lot of easy hoops .. I hope KL can pick that up too ..

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    The way it should have been from day one. Crazy to have Jose playing SG with his play-making ability.
    Agree completely. Its not to say they cant platoon (ie each of them play a little of both) .. but the base case should be Jose PG and KL SG if we play this lineup. BTW - Im not a huge fan of this lineup to finish games .. I like it to switch things up mid game, but we are too exposed defensively IMO to play the last 6 mins of a game with this lineup. Would much rather see T Ross (or even AA) out there, who can shoot, but can also play some D.

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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
    I actually agree too. Its very simple if the coach allows it to be. No more pic n pop from 20 feet. AB gets the ball in the post or shoots open 3s (similar to the offensive game that LK plays). Thats it. No more isos from the 3 pt line. It might mean he only gets 5 shots a game .. which is fine. If hes abusing his man in the post (which btw, he can with at least half the guys that guard him) - then give him lots of touches. If not, he shoots wide open shots only.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
    I agree it might be possible on offense but not on defense.

    This team is down in a stance playing tough, grind it out, help basketball.

    I don't see Bargnani doing the same and if it he does, how long until he gets bored?

    If he is a scapegoat, so be it but I don't care, he really - like really - needs to go.

    #tradeBargnani
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #27
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    It's like Alan Anderson if the shots his been taking lately weren't going in everybody would be calling him a chucker.
    They go in. He's still a chucker. Just an efficent one. ATM.

    When he makes back to back shots, i cringe because i know the next two will be bad shots early in the clock. There are very few people in this league that should be doing a "heat check" and AA is not one of them.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree it might be possible on offense but not on defense.

    This team is down in a stance playing tough, grind it out, help basketball.

    I don't see Bargnani doing the same and if it he does, how long until he gets bored?

    If he is a scapegoat, so be it but I don't care, he really - like really - needs to go.

    #tradeBargnani
    To add to this within the context of this thread, one has to ask the question... how much of this teams turn around is due to Bargnani, Lowry or both being out? I personally think its alot more about Bargnani missing games than Lowry. And we'll likely see that when Lowry returns.

    Regardless, even when/if Bargnani does come back, and even if he does play great, the team has to take that opportunity and trade him. As you said, how long until he reverts to the mean? We've seen it time and time again. He won't play as bad as he did to start the year for an entire season, but he won't play as good as he did to start last season for a year either.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    I actually agree too. Its very simple if the coach allows it to be. No more pic n pop from 20 feet. AB gets the ball in the post or shoots open 3s (similar to the offensive game that LK plays). Thats it. No more isos from the 3 pt line. It might mean he only gets 5 shots a game .. which is fine. If hes abusing his man in the post (which btw, he can with at least half the guys that guard him) - then give him lots of touches. If not, he shoots wide open shots only.
    In reply to your fist post: substitution/rotation pattern is different game to game, based on many factors. The only trend possible is the average playing time of players (over a large span of games). Having 2 point guards has its benefits when utilized correctly, like breaking a press defense... or pressing themselves, which by the way I think our Raps should do more. A lot more. Simply based on their deep rotation. When people get tires (more than playing the usual half court), sub them! And for that style, Lowry is instrumental! Anyways, the point here is that you can not simply say.... I want a certain lineup in specific parts of the game. It is a fundamentally wrong statement.

    As for your last post (the one I'm quoting here): it is not the shot selection of AB. It is his lack of effort. He can shoot, no one argues that... but it is simply not enough to win games. Sit his ass when he comes back; use him only when require another shooter for 3-4 possessions a game, after a time out.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Quote SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
    They go in. He's still a chucker. Just an efficent one. ATM.

    When he makes back to back shots, i cringe because i know the next two will be bad shots early in the clock. There are very few people in this league that should be doing a "heat check" and AA is not one of them.
    Agree with everything; however, he does play smart ball and is not a detriment on the floor; though he's not such a good defender as commentators seem to advertise. Too slow for a 6-6 guy. The main argument against AA is that he's taking time from TRoss

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    To add to this within the context of this thread, one has to ask the question... how much of this teams turn around is due to Bargnani, Lowry or both being out? I personally think its alot more about Bargnani missing games than Lowry. And we'll likely see that when Lowry returns.

    Regardless, even when/if Bargnani does come back, and even if he does play great, the team has to take that opportunity and trade him. As you said, how long until he reverts to the mean? We've seen it time and time again. He won't play as bad as he did to start the year for an entire season, but he won't play as good as he did to start last season for a year either.
    Amen.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    People need to relax. The only difference between the shots that Kyle Lowry took before his first injury and after are that they went in. It's like Alan Anderson if the shots his been taking lately weren't going in everybody would be calling him a chucker. People in this forum are so not used to having a player that's not afraid of the big moment. Like it or not Lowry is are best player production wise, talent wise and toughness wise. This what good players do they take shots that average player are scared of taking. Don't tell me Calderon does that all the time too. It's easy to take a shot when the ball is passed out to with the clock going down and you don't even have to think about it. What do you guys think "closers"? Players that are willing to take shot knowing if they miss it's on them. It's takes guts to live with that and too keep taking those shots.

    I don't want to take anything away from Calderon cause, his playing extremely well. Lets not start a debate here. There is no way Calderon will survive through this PG. The PG slayer has finally met his match.
    I swear, we are brothers from different mothers. Is that how the saying goes? hehehe

    I couldnt have said it better myself.

    I think the real test for Calderon is the Spurs game. I want to see how he does when his bigs and wings get tied up by the opponents tight D, what is he going to do then?

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Youve got a lot of +1s for this point ... but heres another. Im calling AA a chucker as is, cause I just dont think he has the talent to keep hitting these shots.

    One other point that I havent heard much about is the Raps seem to be running a better offense the last few games. They run their wings around a few screens to start each play .. work the ball from side to side and even pull out a little old school weave with their perimeter guys from time to time. When KL was playing we had the ridiculous pic n pop with AB/AJ/JV offense. The ball went from PG to screener and thats about it, while 2/3 sat in the corner/wing. As a result, KL was stuck in late shock clock situations and this fed right into his chucker mentality. Hopefully with greater movement and ball reversal, KL will fare better.

    One thing I will say in JOse's defense .. is he does seem to have figured out the true pick n roll (not the bs pic n pop) with JV, Ed and AJ (he always had it with AJ). Its got us a lot of easy hoops .. I hope KL can pick that up too ..
    To add to that, Cleveland, Houston and Detroit probably are among the bottom feeders when it comes to team perimeter defense. Not take anything away from AA, but if you dont get pressured, you are bound to sink shots.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
    I get the feeling Lowry was trying to play hero ball because the team was struggling and he was trying to take over games. If he returns and the team is still playing well I don't think he'll push the issue as much. But you are correct that Bargnani would have an easier time getting back into the rotation. He is much more familiar with the players and team offense than is Lowry.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what everyone's been saying, including:

    - Bargnani needs to be traded
    - Lowry needs to choose a better shot selection, but probably the best player on team
    - Jose been playing well all year, not just against inferior point guards

    I know I'm in the minority here but I really think Lowry is the one who should be traded between the two point guards that we have.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I agree with most of what everyone's been saying, including:

    - Bargnani needs to be traded
    - Lowry needs to choose a better shot selection, but probably the best player on team
    - Jose been playing well all year, not just against inferior point guards

    I know I'm in the minority here but I really think Lowry is the one who should be traded between the two point guards that we have.
    I am surprised you feel this way.

    What do you see as major differences between Lowry and Kemba? The reason I ask is because I know you were a HUUUGE Kemba fan but yet his game is much more similar, in my opinion, to Lowry than Jose.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
    They go in. He's still a chucker. Just an efficent one. ATM.

    When he makes back to back shots, i cringe because i know the next two will be bad shots early in the clock. There are very few people in this league that should be doing a "heat check" and AA is not one of them.
    +100 .. i keep saying it .. this AA thing will end badly if he keeps thinking he's a scorer ... if he sticks to D and rebounding, he can be a nice piece in the rotation

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I am surprised you feel this way.

    What do you see as major differences between Lowry and Kemba? The reason I ask is because I know you were a HUUUGE Kemba fan but yet his game is much more similar, in my opinion, to Lowry than Jose.
    Interesting point you brought up. Actually, their similarities have everything to do with it. We're rebuilding a franchise here. Major difference is that Lowry is the best player on this team, and as an established player would net the largest possible return in a trade of any player we have right now. Jose is the better fit as we develop players. By the time his contract expires (I'd offer Jose a 3 year deal worth about $15-16m starting next season) Kemba would have taken over as the starter. No point in talking about what could have been, but basically we would have had a younger but better version of Lowry in 2-3 years.

    This team, more than anything, needs to develop their young talent and increase (literally, stockpile) it. As I stated in another thread, Lowry would be GREAT on a team when it's in its contending stages (as Kemba would as well). Thing is, Kemba would be demanding $4m at that time whereas Lowry will be demanding closer to $10m.

    Btw, MKG seems to be developing just fine with Kemba at the helm, and I haven't heard any McHale-like complaints from the coach about Kemba.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I would have no problems trading Lowry as well since he (and JV) are our most prized assets (especially since we can't use a first round pick in any trade).

  20. #40
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    I don't see why we have to move either Jose or Lowry. Our most recent success came with the Forderon line up. Lowry is better than Ford and I love the idea of the different looks these guys give. Plus they only cost like 15 million together. Are Jose and Lowry the equal of one max point guard? I think so.
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