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Lowry. Bargnani and the new Raptors

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  • #16
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Great post.

    The only thing I would mention is, upon return, Lowry does need to be more selective in applying his extremely large testicular fortitude.
    Absolutely, And 1...

    Sometimes you just got a sense with Lowry that he was testing his own personal limits. I made that shot...hmm, maybe I can make a harder one. Maybe even a more difficult one. Oh, I missed that. I can get it next time. I hope he can learn from Jose and visa versa.

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    • #17
      Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      People need to relax. The only difference between the shots that Kyle Lowry took before his first injury and after are that they went in. It's like Alan Anderson if the shots his been taking lately weren't going in everybody would be calling him a chucker. People in this forum are so not used to having a player that's not afraid of the big moment. Like it or not Lowry is are best player production wise, talent wise and toughness wise. This what good players do they take shots that average player are scared of taking. Don't tell me Calderon does that all the time too. It's easy to take a shot when the ball is passed out to with the clock going down and you don't even have to think about it. What do you guys think "closers"? Players that are willing to take shot knowing if they miss it's on them. It's takes guts to live with that and too keep taking those shots.

      I don't want to take anything away from Calderon cause, his playing extremely well. Lets not start a debate here. There is no way Calderon will survive through this PG. The PG slayer has finally met his match.
      +1

      Just wanted to add that Lowry is not the passer Jose is, but Lowry has that killer instinct which Jose lacks. They are both very different PG's, but I think once the schedule gets tough again and we start facing better teams people will see that Lowry is the better option as our starting PG. I love what Jose is doing right now, but it's no conincidence that his stellar play comes against bad teams with young, inexperienced PG's.

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      • #18
        We shouldn't be talking about these two players in the same breath. It's convenient to talk about Lowry and Bargnani together because they're both injured, but it isn't really fair.

        Bargnani has had YEARS to prove his value, and he gets benefit-of-the-doubt time and time again. Lowry has barely had time to adjust to his new team, and he's had his good and his bad moments.

        It's clear Bargnani's got to go, but Lowry needs the rest of the season before we can assess whether he's a good fit or not.
        _________________________

        Celebrating the Futility of the Toronto Raptors:
        http://www.holycraptors.com

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        • #19
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          +1

          Just wanted to add that Lowry is not the passer Jose is, but Lowry has that killer instinct which Jose lacks. They are both very different PG's, but I think once the schedule gets tough again and we start facing better teams people will see that Lowry is the better option as our starting PG. I love what Jose is doing right now, but it's no conincidence that his stellar play comes against bad teams with young, inexperienced PG's.
          no its not a coincidence. Those just happen to be the teams he's been playing while starting this stretch. If we look at his previous stretch they include a 14 -11 + 13 - 12 night against Holiday, a 20-17 against Mo Williams (triple over time ofcourse), a triple double against Hill, 10-9 against Rondo, a 9 - 18 against Nelson and a 10-15 against Deron.


          Lets not pretend that this stretch of games is just 'chance' events based on his current opposition. Jose has been consistently stellar as a starter this year against ALL opposition.

          I know fans don't want a 'pg controversy', but its here. Jose play absolutely demands it. Doesn't make Lowry a worse player or a bad player or the back up, but one can't ignore just how absolutely phenomenal Jose has been. Not only individually, but in terms of helping this team.


          Semi related note : Assuming Casey will run a 2 pg line up when Lowry is back (and he will), perhaps its time Lowry starts playing off the ball instead of Jose.

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          • #20
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            ...Semi related note : Assuming Casey will run a 2 pg line up when Lowry is back (and he will), perhaps its time Lowry starts playing off the ball instead of Jose.
            The way it should have been from day one. Crazy to have Jose playing SG with his play-making ability.

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            • #21
              Puffer wrote: View Post
              The way it should have been from day one. Crazy to have Jose playing SG with his play-making ability.
              even going back to 2009/10 with Hedo and the 3 ball handler line up, what never made sense to me is why take away Jose greatest strength? Jose can shoot, but he's not a shooter. What he is a playmaker, and he's not going to make plays without the ball in his hands. If Jose is on the floor he should be the PG. If he isn't going to be the PG don't put him on the floor.

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              • #22
                Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                People need to relax. The only difference between the shots that Kyle Lowry took before his first injury and after are that they went in. It's like Alan Anderson if the shots his been taking lately weren't going in everybody would be calling him a chucker. People in this forum are so not used to having a player that's not afraid of the big moment. Like it or not Lowry is are best player production wise, talent wise and toughness wise. This what good players do they take shots that average player are scared of taking. Don't tell me Calderon does that all the time too. It's easy to take a shot when the ball is passed out to with the clock going down and you don't even have to think about it. What do you guys think "closers"? Players that are willing to take shot knowing if they miss it's on them. It's takes guts to live with that and too keep taking those shots.

                I don't want to take anything away from Calderon cause, his playing extremely well. Lets not start a debate here. There is no way Calderon will survive through this PG. The PG slayer has finally met his match.
                Youve got a lot of +1s for this point ... but heres another. Im calling AA a chucker as is, cause I just dont think he has the talent to keep hitting these shots.

                One other point that I havent heard much about is the Raps seem to be running a better offense the last few games. They run their wings around a few screens to start each play .. work the ball from side to side and even pull out a little old school weave with their perimeter guys from time to time. When KL was playing we had the ridiculous pic n pop with AB/AJ/JV offense. The ball went from PG to screener and thats about it, while 2/3 sat in the corner/wing. As a result, KL was stuck in late shock clock situations and this fed right into his chucker mentality. Hopefully with greater movement and ball reversal, KL will fare better.

                One thing I will say in JOse's defense .. is he does seem to have figured out the true pick n roll (not the bs pic n pop) with JV, Ed and AJ (he always had it with AJ). Its got us a lot of easy hoops .. I hope KL can pick that up too ..

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                • #23
                  I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
                  The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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                  • #24
                    Puffer wrote: View Post
                    The way it should have been from day one. Crazy to have Jose playing SG with his play-making ability.
                    Agree completely. Its not to say they cant platoon (ie each of them play a little of both) .. but the base case should be Jose PG and KL SG if we play this lineup. BTW - Im not a huge fan of this lineup to finish games .. I like it to switch things up mid game, but we are too exposed defensively IMO to play the last 6 mins of a game with this lineup. Would much rather see T Ross (or even AA) out there, who can shoot, but can also play some D.

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                    • #25
                      Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
                      I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
                      I actually agree too. Its very simple if the coach allows it to be. No more pic n pop from 20 feet. AB gets the ball in the post or shoots open 3s (similar to the offensive game that LK plays). Thats it. No more isos from the 3 pt line. It might mean he only gets 5 shots a game .. which is fine. If hes abusing his man in the post (which btw, he can with at least half the guys that guard him) - then give him lots of touches. If not, he shoots wide open shots only.

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                      • #26
                        Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
                        I actually think Bargnani could slip back in to the mix easier than Lowry ... all Bargs needs to do is share the rock and hit open opportunities ... Lowry needs to swallow the big pill that he CAN'T play hero ball - it kills everything that's good about the sport.
                        I agree it might be possible on offense but not on defense.

                        This team is down in a stance playing tough, grind it out, help basketball.

                        I don't see Bargnani doing the same and if it he does, how long until he gets bored?

                        If he is a scapegoat, so be it but I don't care, he really - like really - needs to go.

                        #tradeBargnani

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                        • #27
                          It's like Alan Anderson if the shots his been taking lately weren't going in everybody would be calling him a chucker.
                          They go in. He's still a chucker. Just an efficent one. ATM.

                          When he makes back to back shots, i cringe because i know the next two will be bad shots early in the clock. There are very few people in this league that should be doing a "heat check" and AA is not one of them.

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                          • #28
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            I agree it might be possible on offense but not on defense.

                            This team is down in a stance playing tough, grind it out, help basketball.

                            I don't see Bargnani doing the same and if it he does, how long until he gets bored?

                            If he is a scapegoat, so be it but I don't care, he really - like really - needs to go.

                            #tradeBargnani
                            To add to this within the context of this thread, one has to ask the question... how much of this teams turn around is due to Bargnani, Lowry or both being out? I personally think its alot more about Bargnani missing games than Lowry. And we'll likely see that when Lowry returns.

                            Regardless, even when/if Bargnani does come back, and even if he does play great, the team has to take that opportunity and trade him. As you said, how long until he reverts to the mean? We've seen it time and time again. He won't play as bad as he did to start the year for an entire season, but he won't play as good as he did to start last season for a year either.

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                            • #29
                              mountio wrote: View Post
                              I actually agree too. Its very simple if the coach allows it to be. No more pic n pop from 20 feet. AB gets the ball in the post or shoots open 3s (similar to the offensive game that LK plays). Thats it. No more isos from the 3 pt line. It might mean he only gets 5 shots a game .. which is fine. If hes abusing his man in the post (which btw, he can with at least half the guys that guard him) - then give him lots of touches. If not, he shoots wide open shots only.
                              In reply to your fist post: substitution/rotation pattern is different game to game, based on many factors. The only trend possible is the average playing time of players (over a large span of games). Having 2 point guards has its benefits when utilized correctly, like breaking a press defense... or pressing themselves, which by the way I think our Raps should do more. A lot more. Simply based on their deep rotation. When people get tires (more than playing the usual half court), sub them! And for that style, Lowry is instrumental! Anyways, the point here is that you can not simply say.... I want a certain lineup in specific parts of the game. It is a fundamentally wrong statement.

                              As for your last post (the one I'm quoting here): it is not the shot selection of AB. It is his lack of effort. He can shoot, no one argues that... but it is simply not enough to win games. Sit his ass when he comes back; use him only when require another shooter for 3-4 possessions a game, after a time out.

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                              • #30
                                SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
                                They go in. He's still a chucker. Just an efficent one. ATM.

                                When he makes back to back shots, i cringe because i know the next two will be bad shots early in the clock. There are very few people in this league that should be doing a "heat check" and AA is not one of them.
                                Agree with everything; however, he does play smart ball and is not a detriment on the floor; though he's not such a good defender as commentators seem to advertise. Too slow for a 6-6 guy. The main argument against AA is that he's taking time from TRoss

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