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Thread: BC gets lambasted again.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Default BC gets lambasted again.

    http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/22...nder_Colangelo

    No more justifying BCs moves. They were ugly, inconceivable and outright senseless.

    You be the judge.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    BC has definitely done a bad job but a couple of things.

    1) Bosh is not a franchise cornerstone and should not be compared to LBJ or D12 - like, ever. Selecting Bargnani with Bosh already on roster was a mistake though - no question.

    2) Amir's contract is 5 years and $30M. $6M for an NBA big not on a rookie deal is not expensive - especially with said player entering prime of career.

    3) In the first round, outside of Drummond because that is an old debate and brings us back to #1 with JV already here, who has truly excelled to the point where you say, "Yeah, shoulda picked him instead." Ross is playing really well. Not comparing Ross to Harden but Harden was 6th man for years in OKC. Why can't Ross have a similar role? 3 and D off teh bench is extremely valuable in my opinion. Ross might actually be much more so thta is just a bonus.

    4) The idea of the Raptors not having a franchise player is a good one. Unfortunately the Raps haven't had a pick higher than #5. Irving and Davis are legit future stars and franchise players - who were also #1 PICKS in drafts with consensus #1's. Bargnani was no such thing and there was no consensus #1 in 2006. Since Bargnani the Raps have picked 9th, 13th, 5th, and 8th. Oh yeah, I for one am very glad we don't have DMC on the roster - no question of his talent but also no question of his immaturity 3 years in to the league. Since DMC is in his 3rd year and was picked 5th (again due to off court issues, not his talent), lets wait and see what JV is doing in year 3 to use that example.



    I definitely think BC has botched more than he has done right in Toronto. But this piece is nowhere close to the issues of why.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Matt? Can you add " My name is sitnonDfence, and I approve this message" to your signature? It would save me a lot of typing.

    Thanks

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    YEah, I read this article earlier. Pretty good analysis. The Amir contract is definitely not a bad one though. Although I do agree to some extent that we probably didn't need to jump out and sign him on the first day of free agency. BC has definitely failed over and over again trying to make the right choices in building a team. Even if Bosh wasn't a franchise player, he really screwed trying to build any kind of team with him. Obviously there are lots of what ifs, but the writer is 100% correct about the Bargs pick creating a problem because there was no way he and Bosh would never really fit together.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...I definitely think BC has botched more than he has done right in Toronto. But this piece is nowhere close to the issues of why.
    Might as well call me flag. Whichever way the wind blows is where I go. I thought the piece nailed it till I saw your comments Matt. You have a much more analytical mind than I do, that's certain.

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    Raptors Republic Starter knickz's Avatar
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    glad i'm not the only one not happy with the ross pick. once g state picked barnes that pick should have been moved. i like ross but you don't draft some projected to go 17th at 8. draft workouts are different from playing in the nba
    "the raptors were my fav team growing up"-kevin durant

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote knickz wrote: View Post
    glad i'm not the only one not happy with the ross pick. once g state picked barnes that pick should have been moved. i like ross but you don't draft some projected to go 17th at 8. draft workouts are different from playing in the nba
    What deals were there?

    Who is to say Ross would have been available later?

    For all those projections, Robinson was projected to go #2 yet fell to #5 and what he has done this year makes it seem like he should have fell farther.

    Projections mean dick squat and just as there is hype around certain NBA teams there is also hype around certain conferences and universities/colleges. Ross did not come from a hyped conference or school.

    There were rumours that Houston wanted Ross themselves if I recall correct.

    But again, who selected in the first round after Ross would have been a better pick outside Drummond? (who is still debatable I might add)
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie JalenRose5's Avatar
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    Great Article, agree with most of it.

    With regards to the Terrance Ross draft, I was definitely not a fan at first, but more and more he is starting to grow on me. He has a nice release on his shot, he can jump out the building, he's not scared to drive and he moves his feet on defense. Still suspect with his dribbling and decision making but that will go away with game experience. People forget that the 2 and 3 positions are very similar and require athletic guys that are around 6'5 - 6'9 (Historically) DeRozan is 6'7 and gains 5 pounds of muscle each year. Terrence Ross is 6'6 and has only up to go. the two of them can definitely play on the court together and can become a very deadly combination if Ross can consistently hit his jumper and Demar continues to Drive.

    It's unfortunate that Bryan Colangelo will forever be linked to Andrea Bargnani.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What deals were there?

    Who is to say Ross would have been available later?

    For all those projections, Robinson was projected to go #2 yet fell to #5 and what he has done this year makes it seem like he should have fell farther.

    Projections mean dick squat and just as there is hype around certain NBA teams there is also hype around certain conferences and universities/colleges. Ross did not come from a hyped conference or school.

    There were rumours that Houston wanted Ross themselves if I recall correct.

    But again, who selected in the first round after Ross would have been a better pick outside Drummond? (who is still debatable I might add)
    Let's not forget that marvelous Cleveland pick at #4. What was that guy's name again? You know, that one guy with the face that was drafted 2 spots ahead of Lillard but couldn't even start on his collegiate team? Great pick, great pick.

    Thanks Chad Ford!

    ~Golden state, Portland

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    BC has definitely done a bad job but a couple of things.

    1) Bosh is not a franchise cornerstone and should not be compared to LBJ or D12 - like, ever. Selecting Bargnani with Bosh already on roster was a mistake though - no question.

    2) Amir's contract is 5 years and $30M. $6M for an NBA big not on a rookie deal is not expensive - especially with said player entering prime of career.

    3) In the first round, outside of Drummond because that is an old debate and brings us back to #1 with JV already here, who has truly excelled to the point where you say, "Yeah, shoulda picked him instead." Ross is playing really well. Not comparing Ross to Harden but Harden was 6th man for years in OKC. Why can't Ross have a similar role? 3 and D off teh bench is extremely valuable in my opinion. Ross might actually be much more so thta is just a bonus.

    4) The idea of the Raptors not having a franchise player is a good one. Unfortunately the Raps haven't had a pick higher than #5. Irving and Davis are legit future stars and franchise players - who were also #1 PICKS in drafts with consensus #1's. Bargnani was no such thing and there was no consensus #1 in 2006. Since Bargnani the Raps have picked 9th, 13th, 5th, and 8th. Oh yeah, I for one am very glad we don't have DMC on the roster - no question of his talent but also no question of his immaturity 3 years in to the league. Since DMC is in his 3rd year and was picked 5th (again due to off court issues, not his talent), lets wait and see what JV is doing in year 3 to use that example.



    I definitely think BC has botched more than he has done right in Toronto. But this piece is nowhere close to the issues of why.
    You wouldn't want Cousins?

    He will most definitely be a top 3 center in this league for many years to come. Maturity issues no doubt, but many young men have maturity issues. You can't teach the competitivness or nastiness in his game and he will only get better moing forward.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    You wouldn't want Cousins?

    He will most definitely be a top 3 center in this league for many years to come. Maturity issues no doubt, but many young men have maturity issues. You can't teach the competitivness or nastiness in his game and he will only get better moing forward.
    Definitely wouldn't want him.

    He is the best player on your team and he has no work ethic. Raps can tell you what that does until this year and Bargnani wasn't even a locker room disruption.

    He is nasty - or I would actually label him dirty after some of the plays this year. He is competitive - but is it from a team perspective or individual stats perspective?

    He complains to the media, is a locker room disruption, and is a thorn in 2 coaches already in his young career.

    He actually plays around the hoop and has Bargnani shooting percentages.

    So no, definitely would not want Cousins.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Definitely wouldn't want him.

    He is the best player on your team and he has no work ethic. Raps can tell you what that does until this year and Bargnani wasn't even a locker room disruption.

    He is nasty - or I would actually label him dirty after some of the plays this year. He is competitive - but is it from a team perspective or individual stats perspective?

    He complains to the media, is a locker room disruption, and is a thorn in 2 coaches already in his young career.

    He actually plays around the hoop and has Bargnani shooting percentages.

    So no, definitely would not want Cousins.

    Cousins continues to do his thang:

    Akis Yerocostas ‏@Aykis16

    Kings replay showing Cuz and Keith Smart jawing at each other after the 1st quarter.
    Retweeted by Hardwood Paroxysm
    6h D-WooD D-WooD ‏@ASp0rtsAholic

    @HPbasketball cousins been benched for the 2nd half....didn't even come out the locker room from halftime
    Retweeted by Hardwood Paroxysm
    Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

    What's sad is not that the Kings' best player was benched in the 2nd half. What's sad is it happened and all the Kings fans just shrugged.
    Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

    Smart was supposed to be the guy who "got" Cousins. Went to his house to reach him, everything. Sad.
    Definitely would not want that guy. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Cousins continues to do his thang:


    Definitely would not want that guy. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
    I think its very difficult to get a good grasp of anyone on that Kings organization because they are such a mess. I don't watch alot of Sacramento ball so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on them but how they view their players seems so chaotic. One minute they are treating Evans like a franchise player, and then they try to move him around and take the ball out of his hands. Then it looks like they are going to Cousins, and they do the same thing there. The team shows some promise with Thomas running the point, and Smart proceeds to bench him and leave him deep in the depth chart. They show no signs of wanting anything resembling leadership on the court. Ownership is trying its hardest to pinch every dime to the point I'm sure they'd pay their players in General Mills coupons if possible. From all accounts they can't wait to get the team out of Sacramento.

    Cousin's was viewed as a hot head before coming into the league, and hasn't shown much to change that reputation. But that entire organization is a complete disaster. A bit tin foil hat here, but I'm actually quite convinced they are trying to put their players in bad situations so they can undercut their salaries when rookie deals run out.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Definitely would not want that guy [Cousins]. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
    There is no way you'd take Beasley; your stance on talented-but-crazy players is well known!

    And that consistent stance deserves a +100 in my book.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    1) Bosh is not a franchise cornerstone and should not be compared to LBJ or D12 - like, ever. Selecting Bargnani with Bosh already on roster was a mistake though - no question.
    Thing is though, at the time the consensus was Aldridge or Bargs for #1. And Aldridge was more of a known quantity and even more of a duplicate of Bosh's game. Shitty selection, yes. But it was a shitty draft. After Aldridge you had Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, and Shelden Williams. Roy was great for a minute there, but the reason he wasn't in the conversation for #1 were his knees, and that turned out to be a pretty valid judgement.

    I can't stand Bargnani, I hated the contract extension from day 1, and I hate how many minutes he's been given here over the course of his career. But drafting him made plenty of sense, and I wouldn't call it a mistake. It was a high-risk bet that had a gigantic potential payoff. The thing I fault BC on is not knowing when to cut his losses.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Thing is though, at the time the consensus was Aldridge or Bargs for #1. And Aldridge was more of a known quantity and even more of a duplicate of Bosh's game. Shitty selection, yes. But it was a shitty draft. After Aldridge you had Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, and Shelden Williams. Roy was great for a minute there, but the reason he wasn't in the conversation for #1 were his knees, and that turned out to be a pretty valid judgement.

    I can't stand Bargnani, I hated the contract extension from day 1, and I hate how many minutes he's been given here over the course of his career. But drafting him made plenty of sense, and I wouldn't call it a mistake. It was a high-risk bet that had a gigantic potential payoff. The thing I fault BC on is not knowing when to cut his losses.
    All valid points. I've made the same in the past. Rudy Gay was also on BC's radar. Clearly he does not care about projections as evident by the Ross selection. Raps were in desperate need of a SF and there was a 6'8", 7''2" wingspan SF available. Obviously a case of hindsight on my part but the need was there nonetheless.

    I agree with your take on when to cut losses but I'll raise you one more: with the selection of Bargnani and giving the Raps 2 jump shooting bigs who did not care to mix it up on either end of the court, one should have been traded immediately.

    I am totally being an armchair GM here and it is really easy to do so with the benefit of history on your side. Making decision in the 'here and now' changes everything which is why the bold statement above gets a huge +1.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ... Making decision in the 'here and now' changes everything which is why the bold statement above gets a huge +1.
    Just read about an interesting study on how people over value things they have. Two groups of college students entered into a draw for NCAA tournament tickets. Half won, half didn't. the study authors than asked the losers what was the absolute max they would pay for tickets if some extras came available. Average answer was $178. Then they asked the winners what was the absolute lowest price they would sell their tickets for if a buyer could be found. average sale price was $2400. Huge mismatch in perceived value.

    You see the same thing all the time at yard sales. Some people price their stuff at brand new (on sale) prices. Once something is in your possession, there is a tendency to over value to justify your acquisition cost.

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    Great find. I agree with this 100%

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I agree with what was said about Ross. He's a good kid, has obvious talent, but he's a SG. Matts point about bringing him off the bench as a 6th man is valid, but I highly doubt that is why he was drafted and at this point Ross isn't anywhere near as advance as Harden was coming into the league. I'm sure there is a really good reason for them picking him, but just doesn't make much sense right now. Same with Acy. Why draft yet another PF whose smaller than some SF when you could take a shot at someone with a high risk, high reward potential like Q. Miller?

    Dont' agree with what was said about drafting Bargnani. The one other guy who was in the running for being the #1 pick was Aldridge and his game is even more similar to Bosh than Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I agree with what was said about Ross. He's a good kid, has obvious talent, but he's a SG. Matts point about bringing him off the bench as a 6th man is valid, but I highly doubt that is why he was drafted and at this point Ross isn't anywhere near as advance as Harden was coming into the league. I'm sure there is a really good reason for them picking him, but just doesn't make much sense right now. Same with Acy. Why draft yet another PF whose smaller than some SF when you could take a shot at someone with a high risk, high reward potential like Q. Miller?

    Dont' agree with what was said about drafting Bargnani. The one other guy who was in the running for being the #1 pick was Aldridge and his game is even more similar to Bosh than Bargnani.
    I think picking Ross made a lot of sense. Who was picked after Ross in the first round that is having a standout year? Drummond, maybe, but that then what about ED and JV?

    Picking Ross and signing Fields, now that made little sense.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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