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Thread: BC gets lambasted again.

  1. #21
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    BC has definitely done a bad job but a couple of things.

    1) Bosh is not a franchise cornerstone and should not be compared to LBJ or D12 - like, ever. Selecting Bargnani with Bosh already on roster was a mistake though - no question.

    2) Amir's contract is 5 years and $30M. $6M for an NBA big not on a rookie deal is not expensive - especially with said player entering prime of career.

    3) In the first round, outside of Drummond because that is an old debate and brings us back to #1 with JV already here, who has truly excelled to the point where you say, "Yeah, shoulda picked him instead." Ross is playing really well. Not comparing Ross to Harden but Harden was 6th man for years in OKC. Why can't Ross have a similar role? 3 and D off teh bench is extremely valuable in my opinion. Ross might actually be much more so thta is just a bonus.

    4) The idea of the Raptors not having a franchise player is a good one. Unfortunately the Raps haven't had a pick higher than #5. Irving and Davis are legit future stars and franchise players - who were also #1 PICKS in drafts with consensus #1's. Bargnani was no such thing and there was no consensus #1 in 2006. Since Bargnani the Raps have picked 9th, 13th, 5th, and 8th. Oh yeah, I for one am very glad we don't have DMC on the roster - no question of his talent but also no question of his immaturity 3 years in to the league. Since DMC is in his 3rd year and was picked 5th (again due to off court issues, not his talent), lets wait and see what JV is doing in year 3 to use that example.



    I definitely think BC has botched more than he has done right in Toronto. But this piece is nowhere close to the issues of why.
    You wouldn't want Cousins?

    He will most definitely be a top 3 center in this league for many years to come. Maturity issues no doubt, but many young men have maturity issues. You can't teach the competitivness or nastiness in his game and he will only get better moing forward.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Well, we us fans can speculate as much as we like on things like DeMar possibly being able to play SF or that Ross can be effective coming off the bench and providing shooting and D or that the 2013 draft being weak, where our pick will end up being in this draft etc..

    Speculation is fine, but it's not concrete and we have the ability to look at things in hind sight now. A GM doesn't have the luxury of speculating so much and should have a bit more of a firm grasp on how he thinks things will shape up. Does BC have the luxury to speculate that DD could one day play SF alon side Ross? I don't see any evidence of him being a good defender even at SG, so guarding larger players is even more unlikely. Does he think his team is good enough that he could use a solid asset to get him a bench player? It's the only conclusion after giving DD a new contract and also bringing in LF to an eye catching contract as well. Is Lowry and Ross the best he could have done with the 2012 and 2013 draft picks? Lowry, imo was a great pick up, but as yet, we are searching for our SF of the future. Picks are just assets and don't have to be used to draft players. I personally would have liked to see him be more creative with the pick to fill in a position of need.

    Hopefully Ross blows up next season and forces Casey to move DD to small forward in order to start Ross, but if that doesn't happen and odds say it won't then the pick just seems like a waste.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    You wouldn't want Cousins?

    He will most definitely be a top 3 center in this league for many years to come. Maturity issues no doubt, but many young men have maturity issues. You can't teach the competitivness or nastiness in his game and he will only get better moing forward.
    Definitely wouldn't want him.

    He is the best player on your team and he has no work ethic. Raps can tell you what that does until this year and Bargnani wasn't even a locker room disruption.

    He is nasty - or I would actually label him dirty after some of the plays this year. He is competitive - but is it from a team perspective or individual stats perspective?

    He complains to the media, is a locker room disruption, and is a thorn in 2 coaches already in his young career.

    He actually plays around the hoop and has Bargnani shooting percentages.

    So no, definitely would not want Cousins.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Well, we us fans can speculate as much as we like on things like DeMar possibly being able to play SF or that Ross can be effective coming off the bench and providing shooting and D or that the 2013 draft being weak, where our pick will end up being in this draft etc..

    Speculation is fine, but it's not concrete and we have the ability to look at things in hind sight now. A GM doesn't have the luxury of speculating so much and should have a bit more of a firm grasp on how he thinks things will shape up. Does BC have the luxury to speculate that DD could one day play SF alon side Ross? I don't see any evidence of him being a good defender even at SG, so guarding larger players is even more unlikely. Does he think his team is good enough that he could use a solid asset to get him a bench player? It's the only conclusion after giving DD a new contract and also bringing in LF to an eye catching contract as well. Is Lowry and Ross the best he could have done with the 2012 and 2013 draft picks? Lowry, imo was a great pick up, but as yet, we are searching for our SF of the future. Picks are just assets and don't have to be used to draft players. I personally would have liked to see him be more creative with the pick to fill in a position of need.

    Hopefully Ross blows up next season and forces Casey to move DD to small forward in order to start Ross, but if that doesn't happen and odds say it won't then the pick just seems like a waste.
    I am more than happy to agree to disagree.

    #8 was in play since the draft lottery according to all news sources and rumours. If there was a deal out there for it I truly believe it would have been made.

    I am very happy with Ross given the remaining prospects in the draft. I'm still waiting for a suggestion of a better pick than Ross outside of arguably Drummond. I am going on the assumption there was little out there in the trade market for the pick.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    All the same questions you have for Ross are equally applicable to Drummond and looking at the remaining talent pool who in the first round was a better selection than Ross? Isn't it possible the media and bloggers making projections were wrong?

    Ross might not be able to play SF but DeRozan possibly can. Also in the new age of small ball, no reason why TR and DD can't play at the same time - which they have shown capable of thus far in my opinion. I also don't think TR and DD are a duplicate of each other than height to be honest. Each players weaknesses are complimented by the others strengths. Ross is a very good defender and his shooting stroke/mechanics suggest his current percentages are not a true representation of his ability.

    Considering most draft picks are out of the league in 4 years, I don't see an issue with drafting Ross and having him come off the bench if that was the intention. 3&D off the bench is a valuable commodity. A team also needs more than a starting 5. 3-4 solid players on the bench are always needed.

    Considering 2013 is shaping up to be a very weak draft and the pick has protections, I see no issue with the trade as is.

    The season is far from over. Raps are currently sitting tied for 5th worst. If they end up finishing the year as many, myself included, expected this season to go from the start, then trading the 2013 pick instead of 2012 will likely turn out to be a very good idea. Also, there is still an opportunity for the Raps to pick up a 1st round pick via trade for 2013.

    Please don't take this as support for Colangelo. I'm past that. However, the way things were done with the pick were good by me. My assumption here is that the Raps finish the year as they are currently playing and end up with the 10/11/12 pick being sent to OKC. I believe both Ross and Lowry are better assets than what the 10-12 pick will return this year.
    +1 , +1 & +1

    This article was fine, but the point about Ross was a stretch to the point of idiocy. With so much still left to be determined, to classify it as a stupid draft pick is just a writer filling space.

    I think what threw us all for a loop was the Derozan contract, but that was a risky (probably wrong) move in itself. The drafting of Ross, considering the context, was a fine move in and of itself.

    Again, what bothers me and probably most fans is the fact that we know we're stuck with an unproven, so far mediocre, guy like DD, and it could very well be the case that Ross becomes a better player who should take DD's spot.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    +1 , +1 & +1

    This article was fine, but the point about Ross was a stretch to the point of idiocy. With so much still left to be determined, to classify it as a stupid draft pick is just a writer filling space.

    I think what threw us all for a loop was the Derozan contract, but that was a risky (probably wrong) move in itself. The drafting of Ross, considering the context, was a fine move in and of itself.

    Again, what bothers me and probably most fans is the fact that we know we're stuck with an unproven, so far mediocre, guy like DD, and it could very well be the case that Ross becomes a better player who should take DD's spot.
    DD is arguably the best player on our team..... sorry to burst your bubble, but he's definately not mediocre and unproven. The whole league has been "game planning for" and noticing Demar since last year! He was selected for the US Select team and is CLEARLY IMPROVED this year.

    His work ethic is insane and it make fans like you eat their words and feel silly because you clearly dont know what your talking about. I'm not MLSE's accountant, but i'm not at all dissappointed in DD's contract. It seems very reasonable to me compared to JOSE's or BARGS' contract.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Demar has been okay. He is a producer, but he has not shown me the leader yet, he has not shown me the competitive nature of an Anderson. Maybe I am being too hard on him, maybe my expectations were greater. I think he is a good player, but I am not as enamoured by him as most of the fan base. Wish he drove more near the end of games, find that he settles for jumpers at the wrong time of the game.

  8. #28
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    +1 , +1 & +1

    This article was fine, but the point about Ross was a stretch to the point of idiocy. With so much still left to be determined, to classify it as a stupid draft pick is just a writer filling space.

    I think what threw us all for a loop was the Derozan contract, but that was a risky (probably wrong) move in itself. The drafting of Ross, considering the context, was a fine move in and of itself.

    Again, what bothers me and probably most fans is the fact that we know we're stuck with an unproven, so far mediocre, guy like DD, and it could very well be the case that Ross becomes a better player who should take DD's spot.
    My issues with DD's contract are:

    1) it was an overpayment based on what he had done so far,
    2) it took away from possible flexibility at the start of this summer,
    3) Raps gave away leverage with right to match.


    With that said, I am pleasantly surprised with his performance thus far this season. His handle has improved significantly. His 3pt shooting is no longer laughable. He has made better decisions. His post game is stellar. His rebounding is no longer miniscule. If he can become a better defender - like even get to average - then I think his contract is actually quite acceptable. Given the improvement seen from this year to last, his work ethic, and desire to improve, I think he might actually be able to raise his game another notch or two.
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  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I am more than happy to agree to disagree.

    #8 was in play since the draft lottery according to all news sources and rumours. If there was a deal out there for it I truly believe it would have been made.

    I am very happy with Ross given the remaining prospects in the draft. I'm still waiting for a suggestion of a better pick than Ross outside of arguably Drummond. I am going on the assumption there was little out there in the trade market for the pick.
    And yet we were able to trade our 2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry, for Lowry.

    That's cool, I have no issue with a difference in opinion and I don't think that Ross is going to be a bad player.

    My arguement is just that I don't see where he fits in the long run. Moving either DD or TR to SF is just speculation that either will be able to play that position for an extended period of time. That leaves one of the two to come off the bench which to me is an inefficient use of a fairly high lottery pick or yet another big contract given out to a player you want coming off the bench.

    Once again, it's not about who was there to be picked that would be better than Ross, it's about the way the pick was used. We didn't improve in any significant way because of that pick. Teams tank so they can get better through the draft by using their pick(s) or trading them. We remained stagnant with the Ross pick imo.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    people thought Ross was a stretch really? the kid is a shooter and defender skills any team would want. I remember around draft some people were clamoring for Drummond thats a little silly when we had JV coming over and Austin Rivers.... can you imagine if we got Rivers? guy is just a chucker he went 3-24 shooting in a summer league game and hes just stinking up the joint in Hornetsland, kid was not ready for the NBA should have stayed in college another year.

    Ross was a good pick and you cant follow the draft mock as a definite thing it never is really. I was happy with the pick as soon as it was made people just didnt know who the poor guy was cause he got little media attention cause honestly Ross is well a modest quiet guy the camera misses him he just lets his game speak for itself.

  11. #31
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    And yet we were able to trade our 2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry, for Lowry.

    That's cool, I have no issue with a difference in opinion and I don't think that Ross is going to be a bad player.

    My arguement is just that I don't see where he fits in the long run. Moving either DD or TR to SF is just speculation that either will be able to play that position for an extended period of time. That leaves one of the two to come off the bench which to me is an inefficient use of a fairly high lottery pick or yet another big contract given out to a player you want coming off the bench.

    Once again, it's not about who was there to be picked that would be better than Ross, it's about the way the pick was used. We didn't improve in any significant way because of that pick. Teams tank so they can get better through the draft by using their pick(s) or trading them. We remained stagnant with the Ross pick imo.

    What do you mean by "...2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry..."??

    Does worse mean the Raps will have a pick higher than 8 (7, 6, 5, 4) or does worse mean the Raps will pick lower than 8 (9,10,11,12,13,14)?
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  12. #32
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    Cleveland had Terrence Ross on their short list.

    I was OK with Toronto selecting him but would have preferred they swung for the fence and draft Andre Drummond instead. Having said that, unless Drummond improves his FT shooting significantly, I think he will be a major liability on offense in games that matter.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Everytime Colangelo's track record comes up, people get lost in the details debating a particular draft pick or trade. Don't get lost in the weeds.

    Bottom line is he has one winning season in 6 years (soon to be 7): two playoff appearances; 4 (soon to be 5) straight years out of the playoffs; he has failed to draft, trade for, or sign a single all-star. The team's winning percentage is no better, and maybe worse, than in the previous 6 seasons.

    You can debate any single move until the cows come home but the bottom line is that his teams have failed - badly - and, despite years of failure, the modus operandi of this management team hasn't changed much, if at all.

    Any other GM, in any other city, would have been fired. He is only safe here for 3 reasons:

    1. His last name
    2. The fact he is good buddies with Tannenbaum
    3. MLSE has no idea how run a NBA team

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Everytime Colangelo's track record comes up, people get lost in the details debating a particular draft pick or trade. Don't get lost in the weeds.

    Bottom line is he has one winning season in 6 years (soon to be 7): two playoff appearances; 4 (soon to be 5) straight years out of the playoffs; he has failed to draft, trade for, or sign a single all-star. The team's winning percentage is no better, and maybe worse, than in the previous 6 seasons.

    You can debate any single move until the cows come home but the bottom line is that his teams have failed - badly - and, despite years of failure, the modus operandi of this management team hasn't changed much, if at all.

    Any other GM, in any other city, would have been fired. He is only safe here for 3 reasons:

    1. His last name
    2. The fact he is good buddies with Tannenbaum
    3. MLSE has no idea how run a NBA team
    slaw lowers the B-O-O-M! and speaks the truth.

    There are many areas where BC has messed up but this article from RealGM did not address the cause of his failures in Toronto.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What do you mean by "...2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry..."??

    Does worse mean the Raps will have a pick higher than 8 (7, 6, 5, 4) or does worse mean the Raps will pick lower than 8 (9,10,11,12,13,14)?
    The latter.

  16. #36
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    DD is arguably the best player on our team..... sorry to burst your bubble, but he's definately not mediocre and unproven. The whole league has been "game planning for" and noticing Demar since last year! He was selected for the US Select team and is CLEARLY IMPROVED this year.

    His work ethic is insane and it make fans like you eat their words and feel silly because you clearly dont know what your talking about. I'm not MLSE's accountant, but i'm not at all dissappointed in DD's contract. It seems very reasonable to me compared to JOSE's or BARGS' contract.
    LOL we'll have to see....

    Although your argument is so thin...and because you take a personal dig at my basketball knowledge..I will dissect:

    "DD is arguably the best player on our team"- even if that were true and i obviously don't agree. What does it really mean to be the best player on the Raptors? That's not what I was talking about. I am talking about comparing him to other 2 gaurds in the league. If you look at it, he is mediocre. Saying he is unproven is merely pointing out that we are yet to see what he can become...how can you argue with that??

    "The whole league has been "game planning for" and noticing Demar since last year!"- even if you knew that which you can't say you do...that is not a function of how good a player he is, or even how good of a defensive player he is. You could also assume that Teams game plan for Bargnani, does that make him some how amazing? It just simply means that he is one of the best offensive threats we have...i.e. they have to game plan for someone

    "He was selected for the US Select team and is CLEARLY IMPROVED this year"- not really relevant...if anything it just shows that he is still unproven as a player

    "His work ethic is insane and it make fans like you eat their words and feel silly because you clearly dont know what your talking about."- what exactly makes fans like me eat our words....has he done something that I missed?

    Like I said...we'll have to see what happens

  17. #37
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    My issues with DD's contract are:

    1) it was an overpayment based on what he had done so far,
    2) it took away from possible flexibility at the start of this summer,
    3) Raps gave away leverage with right to match.


    With that said, I am pleasantly surprised with his performance thus far this season. His handle has improved significantly. His 3pt shooting is no longer laughable. He has made better decisions. His post game is stellar. His rebounding is no longer miniscule. If he can become a better defender - like even get to average - then I think his contract is actually quite acceptable. Given the improvement seen from this year to last, his work ethic, and desire to improve, I think he might actually be able to raise his game another notch or two.
    I agree with you....like I just said to special1....hopefully he can. Otherwise we are stuck with a long term contract for essentially a role player who should have a contract that is more interchangeable with other 2 guards in the league....especially since Ross has a chance to be better than him

  18. #38
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    DeRozan has developed that ability to get us out on shooting droughts. Countless times this season i've seen him make big plays to get us out of a shooting slump. Whether it be posting up and dishing it out, realizing a mismatch and calling for an iso to go to work, or just dribbling the ball up court and drawing contact on his way to the hoop. He's really on his way to becoming one of the top wing plays in the league

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Definitely wouldn't want him.

    He is the best player on your team and he has no work ethic. Raps can tell you what that does until this year and Bargnani wasn't even a locker room disruption.

    He is nasty - or I would actually label him dirty after some of the plays this year. He is competitive - but is it from a team perspective or individual stats perspective?

    He complains to the media, is a locker room disruption, and is a thorn in 2 coaches already in his young career.

    He actually plays around the hoop and has Bargnani shooting percentages.

    So no, definitely would not want Cousins.

    Cousins continues to do his thang:

    Akis Yerocostas ‏@Aykis16

    Kings replay showing Cuz and Keith Smart jawing at each other after the 1st quarter.
    Retweeted by Hardwood Paroxysm
    6h D-WooD D-WooD ‏@ASp0rtsAholic

    @HPbasketball cousins been benched for the 2nd half....didn't even come out the locker room from halftime
    Retweeted by Hardwood Paroxysm
    Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

    What's sad is not that the Kings' best player was benched in the 2nd half. What's sad is it happened and all the Kings fans just shrugged.
    Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

    Smart was supposed to be the guy who "got" Cousins. Went to his house to reach him, everything. Sad.
    Definitely would not want that guy. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
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  20. #40
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Cousins continues to do his thang:


    Definitely would not want that guy. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
    I think its very difficult to get a good grasp of anyone on that Kings organization because they are such a mess. I don't watch alot of Sacramento ball so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on them but how they view their players seems so chaotic. One minute they are treating Evans like a franchise player, and then they try to move him around and take the ball out of his hands. Then it looks like they are going to Cousins, and they do the same thing there. The team shows some promise with Thomas running the point, and Smart proceeds to bench him and leave him deep in the depth chart. They show no signs of wanting anything resembling leadership on the court. Ownership is trying its hardest to pinch every dime to the point I'm sure they'd pay their players in General Mills coupons if possible. From all accounts they can't wait to get the team out of Sacramento.

    Cousin's was viewed as a hot head before coming into the league, and hasn't shown much to change that reputation. But that entire organization is a complete disaster. A bit tin foil hat here, but I'm actually quite convinced they are trying to put their players in bad situations so they can undercut their salaries when rookie deals run out.

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