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  • #31
    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    And yet we were able to trade our 2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry, for Lowry.

    That's cool, I have no issue with a difference in opinion and I don't think that Ross is going to be a bad player.

    My arguement is just that I don't see where he fits in the long run. Moving either DD or TR to SF is just speculation that either will be able to play that position for an extended period of time. That leaves one of the two to come off the bench which to me is an inefficient use of a fairly high lottery pick or yet another big contract given out to a player you want coming off the bench.

    Once again, it's not about who was there to be picked that would be better than Ross, it's about the way the pick was used. We didn't improve in any significant way because of that pick. Teams tank so they can get better through the draft by using their pick(s) or trading them. We remained stagnant with the Ross pick imo.

    What do you mean by "...2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry..."??

    Does worse mean the Raps will have a pick higher than 8 (7, 6, 5, 4) or does worse mean the Raps will pick lower than 8 (9,10,11,12,13,14)?

    Comment


    • #32
      Cleveland had Terrence Ross on their short list.

      I was OK with Toronto selecting him but would have preferred they swung for the fence and draft Andre Drummond instead. Having said that, unless Drummond improves his FT shooting significantly, I think he will be a major liability on offense in games that matter.

      Comment


      • #33
        Everytime Colangelo's track record comes up, people get lost in the details debating a particular draft pick or trade. Don't get lost in the weeds.

        Bottom line is he has one winning season in 6 years (soon to be 7): two playoff appearances; 4 (soon to be 5) straight years out of the playoffs; he has failed to draft, trade for, or sign a single all-star. The team's winning percentage is no better, and maybe worse, than in the previous 6 seasons.

        You can debate any single move until the cows come home but the bottom line is that his teams have failed - badly - and, despite years of failure, the modus operandi of this management team hasn't changed much, if at all.

        Any other GM, in any other city, would have been fired. He is only safe here for 3 reasons:

        1. His last name
        2. The fact he is good buddies with Tannenbaum
        3. MLSE has no idea how run a NBA team

        Comment


        • #34
          slaw wrote: View Post
          Everytime Colangelo's track record comes up, people get lost in the details debating a particular draft pick or trade. Don't get lost in the weeds.

          Bottom line is he has one winning season in 6 years (soon to be 7): two playoff appearances; 4 (soon to be 5) straight years out of the playoffs; he has failed to draft, trade for, or sign a single all-star. The team's winning percentage is no better, and maybe worse, than in the previous 6 seasons.

          You can debate any single move until the cows come home but the bottom line is that his teams have failed - badly - and, despite years of failure, the modus operandi of this management team hasn't changed much, if at all.

          Any other GM, in any other city, would have been fired. He is only safe here for 3 reasons:

          1. His last name
          2. The fact he is good buddies with Tannenbaum
          3. MLSE has no idea how run a NBA team
          slaw lowers the B-O-O-M! and speaks the truth.

          There are many areas where BC has messed up but this article from RealGM did not address the cause of his failures in Toronto.

          Comment


          • #35
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            What do you mean by "...2013 pick which by all accounts should be worse that #8 with the addition of Lowry..."??

            Does worse mean the Raps will have a pick higher than 8 (7, 6, 5, 4) or does worse mean the Raps will pick lower than 8 (9,10,11,12,13,14)?
            The latter.

            Comment


            • #36
              special1 wrote: View Post
              DD is arguably the best player on our team..... sorry to burst your bubble, but he's definately not mediocre and unproven. The whole league has been "game planning for" and noticing Demar since last year! He was selected for the US Select team and is CLEARLY IMPROVED this year.

              His work ethic is insane and it make fans like you eat their words and feel silly because you clearly dont know what your talking about. I'm not MLSE's accountant, but i'm not at all dissappointed in DD's contract. It seems very reasonable to me compared to JOSE's or BARGS' contract.
              LOL we'll have to see....

              Although your argument is so thin...and because you take a personal dig at my basketball knowledge..I will dissect:

              "DD is arguably the best player on our team"- even if that were true and i obviously don't agree. What does it really mean to be the best player on the Raptors? That's not what I was talking about. I am talking about comparing him to other 2 gaurds in the league. If you look at it, he is mediocre. Saying he is unproven is merely pointing out that we are yet to see what he can become...how can you argue with that??

              "The whole league has been "game planning for" and noticing Demar since last year!"- even if you knew that which you can't say you do...that is not a function of how good a player he is, or even how good of a defensive player he is. You could also assume that Teams game plan for Bargnani, does that make him some how amazing? It just simply means that he is one of the best offensive threats we have...i.e. they have to game plan for someone

              "He was selected for the US Select team and is CLEARLY IMPROVED this year"- not really relevant...if anything it just shows that he is still unproven as a player

              "His work ethic is insane and it make fans like you eat their words and feel silly because you clearly dont know what your talking about."- what exactly makes fans like me eat our words....has he done something that I missed?

              Like I said...we'll have to see what happens

              Comment


              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                My issues with DD's contract are:

                1) it was an overpayment based on what he had done so far,
                2) it took away from possible flexibility at the start of this summer,
                3) Raps gave away leverage with right to match.


                With that said, I am pleasantly surprised with his performance thus far this season. His handle has improved significantly. His 3pt shooting is no longer laughable. He has made better decisions. His post game is stellar. His rebounding is no longer miniscule. If he can become a better defender - like even get to average - then I think his contract is actually quite acceptable. Given the improvement seen from this year to last, his work ethic, and desire to improve, I think he might actually be able to raise his game another notch or two.
                I agree with you....like I just said to special1....hopefully he can. Otherwise we are stuck with a long term contract for essentially a role player who should have a contract that is more interchangeable with other 2 guards in the league....especially since Ross has a chance to be better than him

                Comment


                • #38
                  DeRozan has developed that ability to get us out on shooting droughts. Countless times this season i've seen him make big plays to get us out of a shooting slump. Whether it be posting up and dishing it out, realizing a mismatch and calling for an iso to go to work, or just dribbling the ball up court and drawing contact on his way to the hoop. He's really on his way to becoming one of the top wing plays in the league

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Definitely wouldn't want him.

                    He is the best player on your team and he has no work ethic. Raps can tell you what that does until this year and Bargnani wasn't even a locker room disruption.

                    He is nasty - or I would actually label him dirty after some of the plays this year. He is competitive - but is it from a team perspective or individual stats perspective?

                    He complains to the media, is a locker room disruption, and is a thorn in 2 coaches already in his young career.

                    He actually plays around the hoop and has Bargnani shooting percentages.

                    So no, definitely would not want Cousins.

                    Cousins continues to do his thang:

                    Akis Yerocostas ‏@Aykis16

                    Kings replay showing Cuz and Keith Smart jawing at each other after the 1st quarter.
                    Retweeted by Hardwood Paroxysm
                    6h D-WooD D-WooD ‏@ASp0rtsAholic

                    @HPbasketball cousins been benched for the 2nd half....didn't even come out the locker room from halftime
                    Retweeted by Hardwood Paroxysm
                    Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

                    What's sad is not that the Kings' best player was benched in the 2nd half. What's sad is it happened and all the Kings fans just shrugged.
                    Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball

                    Smart was supposed to be the guy who "got" Cousins. Went to his house to reach him, everything. Sad.
                    Definitely would not want that guy. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Cousins continues to do his thang:


                      Definitely would not want that guy. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
                      I think its very difficult to get a good grasp of anyone on that Kings organization because they are such a mess. I don't watch alot of Sacramento ball so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on them but how they view their players seems so chaotic. One minute they are treating Evans like a franchise player, and then they try to move him around and take the ball out of his hands. Then it looks like they are going to Cousins, and they do the same thing there. The team shows some promise with Thomas running the point, and Smart proceeds to bench him and leave him deep in the depth chart. They show no signs of wanting anything resembling leadership on the court. Ownership is trying its hardest to pinch every dime to the point I'm sure they'd pay their players in General Mills coupons if possible. From all accounts they can't wait to get the team out of Sacramento.

                      Cousin's was viewed as a hot head before coming into the league, and hasn't shown much to change that reputation. But that entire organization is a complete disaster. A bit tin foil hat here, but I'm actually quite convinced they are trying to put their players in bad situations so they can undercut their salaries when rookie deals run out.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Craiger wrote: View Post
                        I think its very difficult to get a good grasp of anyone on that Kings organization because they are such a mess. I don't watch alot of Sacramento ball so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on them but how they view their players seems so chaotic. One minute they are treating Evans like a franchise player, and then they try to move him around and take the ball out of his hands. Then it looks like they are going to Cousins, and they do the same thing there. The team shows some promise with Thomas running the point, and Smart proceeds to bench him and leave him deep in the depth chart. They show no signs of wanting anything resembling leadership on the court. Ownership is trying its hardest to pinch every dime to the point I'm sure they'd pay their players in General Mills coupons if possible. From all accounts they can't wait to get the team out of Sacramento.

                        Cousin's was viewed as a hot head before coming into the league, and hasn't shown much to change that reputation. But that entire organization is a complete disaster. A bit tin foil hat here, but I'm actually quite convinced they are trying to put their players in bad situations so they can undercut their salaries when rookie deals run out.
                        All good points.

                        My thought is because things are chaotic around you it doesn't mean you have to add to the chaos or lower yourself to that level. I know we are talking about a young man with maturity problems as it is but his actions and response to his environment is exactly why I would not want him on any team I was associated with or cheered for.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          Definitely would not want that guy [Cousins]. I'd probably take Beasley over him. Wowzers, that is bad.
                          There is no way you'd take Beasley; your stance on talented-but-crazy players is well known!

                          And that consistent stance deserves a +100 in my book.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            1) Bosh is not a franchise cornerstone and should not be compared to LBJ or D12 - like, ever. Selecting Bargnani with Bosh already on roster was a mistake though - no question.
                            Thing is though, at the time the consensus was Aldridge or Bargs for #1. And Aldridge was more of a known quantity and even more of a duplicate of Bosh's game. Shitty selection, yes. But it was a shitty draft. After Aldridge you had Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, and Shelden Williams. Roy was great for a minute there, but the reason he wasn't in the conversation for #1 were his knees, and that turned out to be a pretty valid judgement.

                            I can't stand Bargnani, I hated the contract extension from day 1, and I hate how many minutes he's been given here over the course of his career. But drafting him made plenty of sense, and I wouldn't call it a mistake. It was a high-risk bet that had a gigantic potential payoff. The thing I fault BC on is not knowing when to cut his losses.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              tkfu wrote: View Post
                              Thing is though, at the time the consensus was Aldridge or Bargs for #1. And Aldridge was more of a known quantity and even more of a duplicate of Bosh's game. Shitty selection, yes. But it was a shitty draft. After Aldridge you had Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, and Shelden Williams. Roy was great for a minute there, but the reason he wasn't in the conversation for #1 were his knees, and that turned out to be a pretty valid judgement.

                              I can't stand Bargnani, I hated the contract extension from day 1, and I hate how many minutes he's been given here over the course of his career. But drafting him made plenty of sense, and I wouldn't call it a mistake. It was a high-risk bet that had a gigantic potential payoff. The thing I fault BC on is not knowing when to cut his losses.
                              All valid points. I've made the same in the past. Rudy Gay was also on BC's radar. Clearly he does not care about projections as evident by the Ross selection. Raps were in desperate need of a SF and there was a 6'8", 7''2" wingspan SF available. Obviously a case of hindsight on my part but the need was there nonetheless.

                              I agree with your take on when to cut losses but I'll raise you one more: with the selection of Bargnani and giving the Raps 2 jump shooting bigs who did not care to mix it up on either end of the court, one should have been traded immediately.

                              I am totally being an armchair GM here and it is really easy to do so with the benefit of history on your side. Making decision in the 'here and now' changes everything which is why the bold statement above gets a huge +1.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                ... Making decision in the 'here and now' changes everything which is why the bold statement above gets a huge +1.
                                Just read about an interesting study on how people over value things they have. Two groups of college students entered into a draw for NCAA tournament tickets. Half won, half didn't. the study authors than asked the losers what was the absolute max they would pay for tickets if some extras came available. Average answer was $178. Then they asked the winners what was the absolute lowest price they would sell their tickets for if a buyer could be found. average sale price was $2400. Huge mismatch in perceived value.

                                You see the same thing all the time at yard sales. Some people price their stuff at brand new (on sale) prices. Once something is in your possession, there is a tendency to over value to justify your acquisition cost.

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