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Thread: Calderon to start ahead of Lowry - I don't like this

  1. #1
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    Default Calderon to start ahead of Lowry - I don't like this

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...-jose-calderon

    The Raptors won five of the first six games Lowry missed and took a season-high five-game winning streak into a matchup with the Spurs here Wednesday night.

    And because of the leadership shown by veteran Jose Calderon, Lowry will come off the bench whenever he gets back.

    “Jose has earned the position,” Casey said before the game. “Jose has played as well as any point guard we’ve had this year so that’s where it is right now.

    “We’ll see in the next couple of days but right now Jose is the starting point guard and has done a solid job of running the team, building trust, directing the young guys, making sure they’re in the right place.”

    what is everyone else's opinion?
    Last edited by Arsenalist; Fri Dec 28th, 2012 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Added article excerpt for context.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    It is fine for a few games.

    Lowry's biggest issue when he came back was he was out of shape and still hurt.

    The ease back plan is best given circumstances.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I think the Raptors have much too long of a history handing a starting position to someone who has yet to necessarily earn it. Part of this is because they invest too much too quickly in players, and therefore feel obligated to do so.

    Yet here we have the one guy whose earned it (numerous times no less) earning it again. I don't have a problem with it.

    I also think its a good test for Lowry and how he reacts. If he reacts poorly (like he did in Houston) the team may need to get ready to ship him out. If he takes it well, then he has all rights to earn it back.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Whoops forgot to add that given the Raptors history, this is more likely just talk than anything.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    I agree let him get back into game shape before he is starting again like Fields, the biggest positive is no more John Lucas I feel like clawing my eyes out when he has to play oh my god so selfish...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors have much too long of a history handing a starting position to someone who has yet to necessarily earn it. Part of this is because they invest too much too quickly in players, and therefore feel obligated to do so.

    Yet here we have the one guy whose earned it (numerous times no less) earning it again. I don't have a problem with it.

    I also think its a good test for Lowry and how he reacts. If he reacts poorly (like he did in Houston) the team may need to get ready to ship him out. If he takes it well, then he has all rights to earn it back.
    This is pretty much what I came here to say.

    I don't think Lowry was playing a winning style of basketball on either side of the floor before he went down with his latest injury; every second shot seemed to be a bad one, constant gambling on D, ignoring teammates for long periods of time, etc. After he went down, Calderon stepped in, has played exceptionally well and despite the poor competition, the team enjoyed success for virtually the first time all season and appears to be gaining something that resembles traction as well. Beyond the wins, the team seems to be more engaged and playing harder than they have since the preseason, and young players like ED, Ross and JV before his injury were enjoying more personal success as well.

    What's the problem with actually making Lowry earn his spot back from Calderon? The line of thinking that players should be given starting roles and spoon fed tons of playing time based on their name value, NBA live player rating or whatever else rather than how much they are contributing to a winning situation is a trend that needs to stop in Toronto. It's what has led to Bargnani being Toronto's highest paid player, their leading shot taker and a guy who averages 30+ MPG when you can't seem to find any knowledgeable basketball person who thinks that you can put a winning team on the floor with him as a focal point.

    If Lowry earns back the position then he deserves it just the same as Jose. Maybe it takes 2 weeks, a month, two months, or maybe it never happens at all. However it plays out, I want the player most qualified to contribute to a winning situation being the one on the floor, and that goes for every position on the team.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Dec 27th, 2012 at 01:50 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Gotta go with the guy that's giving them the best chemistry so far, clearly that's been Calderon. This should only be for a short time though...if Lowry's gonna be the starter long term Casey will have to work him back into the rotation
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This is pretty much what I came here to say.

    I don't think Lowry was playing a winning style of basketball on either side of the floor before he went down with his latest injury; every second shot seemed to be a bad one, constant gambling on D, ignoring teammates for long periods of time, etc. After he went down, Calderon stepped in, has played exceptionally well and despite the poor competition, the team enjoyed success for virtually the first time all season and appears to be gaining something that resembles traction as well. Beyond the wins, the team seems to be more engaged and playing harder than they have since the preseason, and young players like ED, Ross and JV before his injury were enjoying more personal success as well.

    What's the problem with actually making Lowry earn his spot back from Calderon? The line of thinking that players should be given starting roles and spoon fed tons of playing time based on their name value, NBA live player rating or whatever else rather than how much they are contributing to a winning situation is a trend that needs to stop in Toronto. It's what has led to Bargnani being Toronto's highest paid player, their leading shot taker and a guy who averages 30+ MPG when you can't seem to find any knowledgeable basketball person who thinks that you can put a winning team on the floor with him as a focal point.

    If Lowry earns back the position then he deserves it just the same as Jose. Maybe it takes 2 weeks, a month, two months, or maybe it never happens at all. However it plays out, I want the player most qualified to contribute to a winning situation being the one on the floor, and that goes for every position on the team.
    it is unwise to create conflict with a guy who has known ego problems, especially when he is the most talented player on the team.

    bargnani is a fundamentally flawed player, who doesn't defend well, doesn't rebound well, takes inefficient shots, can't pass, tunnel vision, poor conditioning........this is true for the last couple of years, we haven't given lowry enough of a chance he was putting all star numbers in houston, especially since calderon's success came against poor teams (except for rockets, who arguably played their worst game of the year), calderon is NOT a threat against better defensive teams, he is not a good enough scorer. And that is what the raptors need,we have years of empirical evidence.
    Last edited by akashsingh; Thu Dec 27th, 2012 at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It is fine for a few games.

    Lowry's biggest issue when he came back was he was out of shape and still hurt.

    The ease back plan is best given circumstances.
    I would be fine if they stressed that the reason they are giving calderon extended minutes is because of conditioning and rust, but to come out and say calderon has earned the starters position creates unnecessary controversy with our best player even though it is the truth. Calderon has proven over the years he is solid, but that isn't what we need when the scoring talent on the team is so bad.
    Last edited by akashsingh; Thu Dec 27th, 2012 at 02:20 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    it is unwise to create conflict with a guy who has known ego problems, especially when he is the most talented player on the team.

    bargnani is a fundamentally flawed player, who doesn't defend well, doesn't rebound well, takes inefficient shots, can't pass, tunnel vision, poor conditioning........this is true for the last couple of years, we haven't given lowry enough of a chance he was putting all star numbers in houston, especially since calderon's success came against poor teams (except for rockets, who arguably played their worst game of the year), calderon is NOT a threat against better defensive teams, he is not a good enough scorer. And that is what the raptors need,we have years of empirical evidence.
    I don't think your logic about giving a player with a "known ego" everything he wants so you don't create a conflict is very sound. In fact, while you may be appeasing that one particular player, that seems like a pretty foolproof way to alienate and create resentment amongst your other 12 guys. This isn't Kobe Bryant we are talking about; Lowry is a good player but he's not the type of transcendent talent that should be allowed to play by a different set of rules than everyone else.

    All of the things I bolded applied to Lowry as well before he went down with his latest injury, so I do think you're falling into the same trap as Bargnani if you just automatically hand him back the keys when he gets back. Make him prove that he's going to play a style that is conducive to winning, and if/when he does it at a higher level than Calderon, give him his job back. It's not that difficult.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    He'll be back in the starting role in no time. I give it a week's worth of games.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Yeah he'll earn the starting role back. I prefer him coming off the bench so he can get in game shape before he gets major minutes anyway

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I would be fine if they stressed that the reason they are giving calderon extended minutes is because of conditioning and rust, but to come out and say calderon has earned the starters position creates unnecessary controversy with our best player even though it is the truth. Calderon has proven over the years he is solid, but that isn't what we need when the scoring talent on the team is so bad.
    A few things:

    1) I think this has to raise the question - Is Lowry actually the teams best player?

    2) If the guy has an ego problem why are we so concerned with him even being on the team? Wasn't Colangelo's creed supposedly to avoid those very types of players?

    3) why should this team bend over backwards for a player like Lowry? He's hardly a LBJ or Kobe. He's not even a Chris Bosh, and the team shouldn't have done as much as they did over the years to try and keep him or attempt to keep him happy.

    I think Lowry is a good player, but he's nothing special. Even if he is the 'best player' on the team (and i'd bet Andrea would argue with you about that ) he's not going to single handidly make them a contender or even a playoff team. I have no problems with him starting, but he should have to earn just as much as anyone else does. Now I expect he'll only come off the bench for a game or two and thrown right back out there.... but this team needs to start living their 'culture change' at all levels, and not just talking about it. Not saying 'oh we don't want to create a fuss so we'll give in to you' or assuming 'your supposed to be the better player so you'll just get your minutes'. It hasn't helped the team so far, and it won't going forward.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    This is a good idea. Letting Lowry come off the bench for a few games and get into game shape will bode well for us. Better than just throwing him into the fire and playing starters minutes while not being 100% healthy.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    ...Better than just throwing him into the fire and playing starters minutes while not being 100% healthy.
    This is the key. Once he demonstrates that he is in game shape, and healthy, he will take the starters job. No one will have to give it to him. You want your starters to take their positions. Lowry will take the starting PG position. Casey will have no choice. Simple.

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    “We’ll see in the next couple of days but right now Jose is the starting point guard and has done a solid job of running the team, building trust, directing the young guys, making sure they’re in the right place.”

    “He’s one of the main reasons why Terrence Ross has progressed at the right pace,” Casey said of Calderon. “He’s quarterbacked him, talked him through situations and really been a mentor for him on the court.”

    These are the points that matter. If Jose is big asset in the development of Davis, JV and Ross, then that trumps all. This season is a write-off anyway and no draft pick either, so....

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    Raptors Republic Starter The Coach's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    “We’ll see in the next couple of days but right now Jose is the starting point guard and has done a solid job of running the team, building trust, directing the young guys, making sure they’re in the right place.”

    “He’s one of the main reasons why Terrence Ross has progressed at the right pace,” Casey said of Calderon. “He’s quarterbacked him, talked him through situations and really been a mentor for him on the court.”

    These are the points that matter. If Jose is big asset in the development of Davis, JV and Ross, then that trumps all. This season is a write-off anyway and no draft pick either, so....
    This was my concern when Lowry was acquired and people were saying how much better off we are with Lowry over Nash... my rant from July 15th still stands:

    This is also a concern for me with Lowry. BryCo & Co. keeps raving about the fact that Lowry does all it takes to win and yet Lowry has only ever been to the playoffs once (08-09) and he was 3rd in PG minutes behind Brooks and Alston (yes the "Skip to the Lou" that we sent out of here a few years back). I know he is not that old (although he is supposed to be a young vet on our team - usually these types of guys are praised for bringing winning experience), but is this the guy that brings us to the playoffs. I do expect Lowry to be our "best player" but does that make us the best team possible. I still can't believe the amount of people that thought Lowry was a better pick-up than Nash for this team. Yes, Lowry will put up better stats than Nash (depending on what you emphasize) but Nash makes EVERYONE else better... Lowry, from his resume, continues to make HIMSELF better. Think of the amount of guys that flourished playing with Lowry last year... Dragic? (oh yeah, he didn't play much with him, he just took over his starting job). The amount of people that owe Nash for raising their value is ridiculous.


    Sorry for the rant... I actually do like the Lowry deal (we needed the change) and he kind of reminds me of an older version of Lillard (who I was in love with prior to the draft). Just don't tell me that he knows how to win or that he is better than Nash... I hope he continues to improve and mature his own game while finding a way to make everyone else better too... oh yeah and bring us back to the playoffs (not expecting much).
    This is also the reason why I would approve a trade that revolved around Bargs and Pau Gasol. Gasol is a good passing big man that will help develop JV... Bargs will not.

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    After Jose's solid performance as a starter this should not even be an issue. Casey is absolutely right in saying that Jose has earned the job. Lowry should graciously back up Jose. Time for some team play.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors have much too long of a history handing a starting position to someone who has yet to necessarily earn it. Part of this is because they invest too much too quickly in players, and therefore feel obligated to do so.

    Yet here we have the one guy whose earned it (numerous times no less) earning it again. I don't have a problem with it.

    I also think its a good test for Lowry and how he reacts. If he reacts poorly (like he did in Houston) the team may need to get ready to ship him out. If he takes it well, then he has all rights to earn it back.
    +1. Agreed, although, to sort of argue, Kyle Lowry was brought in to be our franchise point guard (or the future point guard).

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I think the Raptors have much too long of a history handing a starting position to someone who has yet to necessarily earn it. Part of this is because they invest too much too quickly in players, and therefore feel obligated to do so.

    Yet here we have the one guy whose earned it (numerous times no less) earning it again. I don't have a problem with it.

    I also think its a good test for Lowry and how he reacts. If he reacts poorly (like he did in Houston) the team may need to get ready to ship him out. If he takes it well, then he has all rights to earn it back.
    I missed this post originally.

    Craiger you nailed it. Lowry's reaction to being a backup and to having watched others thrive in his absence will hopefully go a long way to determining his future in Toronto.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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