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Thread: Don't look now, the Raps are 3.5 games out of 8th!

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Default Don't look now, the Raps are 3.5 games out of 8th!

    Who would've thought that 3 weeks ago? Ya never know!!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I love your optimism, but they are 9 games back from .500. That's still a huge hill to climb. Boston who is in 8th is two games back from .500 which means we would have to win our next 7 games to have a similar record percentage wise (assuming Boston keeps their pace).

    It sure would be a hell of a season if they got into the playoffs.. although a part of me would prefer that they just miss it so that they can give that pick to OKC.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I love your optimism, but they are 9 games back from .500. That's still a huge hill to climb. Boston who is in 8th is two games back from .500 which means we would have to win our next 7 games to have a similar record percentage wise (assuming Boston keeps their pace).

    It sure would be a hell of a season if they got into the playoffs.. although a part of me would prefer that they just miss it so that they can give that pick to OKC.
    I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.
    igiving away pick right now will open up more possibilitirs for trades involving picks. which means addition of more talent. a better team than we have now.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star TRex's Avatar
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    Definitely did not see this coming a couple of weeks ago!

    I'm not keeping my hopes up though. They're trying to catch the BOSTON CELTICS. I'm sure that team will find a way to turn thigns around.
    Follow me on Twitter - @RRyan22

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    Best we can hope for is 9th spot.

    Make a run for it, be a winning team, but fall just short.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Sig's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.
    Yeah this is a great mindset and stuff, but how great were those crucial, super important, franchise-saving, culture-changing wins late in the season last year, eh? Really paid off for us, put us in a great position.
    Last edited by Sig; Mon Dec 31st, 2012 at 02:57 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Well if you are being sarcastic, Terrence Ross is over achieving IMO right now. I bet he'll be better than Barnes in the long run.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Sig wrote: View Post
    Yeah this is a great mindset and stuff, but how great were those crucial, super important, franchise-saving, culture-changing wins late in the season last year, eh? Really paid off for us, put us in a great position.
    You thought if we had tanked we would be champions by now? I think Ross going to be a fine player at the very least and expect him to outperform some of those drafted higher like Beal, Waiters, Barnes, Robinson.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Sig's Avatar
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    Ross is definitely a fine player. I have nothing against him at all and I am very glad that we have him on this team.

    But you have to understand, "pride" and "nobility" do not exist in professional sports. It is a business, and more importantly it is a never-ending competition against your enemies. Don't believe this? Look at flopping, constant bickering for calls, hard unnecessary fouls, PEDs, illegal player tryouts, inter player collaborations/scheming (Lebron), Hack-A-______ing, illegal defense, etc.

    These are all things that are used as a "shortcut" or "cheat" to win. Smart teams and players do anything and everything they possibly can, to win the game, or in this case; make the team better. Who cares if it's not noble or respectful to tank, it is most definitely a better alternative than sucking for 10 years. Nobody cares, even David Stern doesn't care. There's even an actual video of the '85 lottery showing it was rigged for the Knicks as clear as day! Just a business....

    No, we wouldn't be champions in one year of tanking. But we'd be on the right track for it. Especially if we won that #1 pick. How good does Terrence Ross sound compared to Anthony Davis?

    But oh yeah, changing the culture and stuff!

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.
    Lets see how you would feel if the Raptors had serious injuries next season to key players and end the year with 3th worst record and pick 5th in a strong wing draft class.

    I'd much rather finish the year strong and get the noose from around the neck removed regarding the draft pick.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    I am all for letting the horses run.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I've never understood that philosophy about hoping your favorite team fails. Who cares about the damn pick? If the Raptors are going where we want them to they shouldn't have any top 10 picks in the next couple years anyways, let's worry more about progress and less about which year we give our pick away.
    Which is fine if one doesn't want or expect anything more than a mediocre team.

    To my knowledge there is only one championship team since atleast 1980 that didn't draft with or use a top 10 pick to add a significant player to their team, and that was the early 2000 Lakers with Shaq and Kobe. There is only 2 Championship teams in that same time frame that didn't use a top 5 pick in a similar fashion, LA and Dallas. (if we look at the Lakers from 2 seperate eras - early 2000 Lakers and the Late 2000 Lakers then technically its 3) Ofcourse those teams also had some of the higest payrolls in the history of the league (especially if we look at what they payed over a long period of time) which helped compensate for their lack of drafting.

    But as a quick breakdown:

    Heat - Wade #5
    Dallas - Dirk #9 (for a #6 pick)
    Late 2000s Lakers - Bynum #10
    Boston - Pierce #9 + KG/Allen for numerous top 10 picks
    Spurs - Duncan #1
    2000s Detroit - Ben Wallace undrafted (traded for Grant Hill #3 pick)
    Bulls - Jordan #3
    Houston - Hakeem #1
    Late 80s Detroit - Thomas #2
    80s Lakers - Magic #1
    80s Celtics - McHale #3, Parrish #8 (traded for a first over all pick), Bird #6

    The only team I didn't include was the 1982/83 Philadelphia 76ers and that was due to their significant players (Dr J and Moses Malone) being hold overs from the ABA.


    Now i admit thats a very simplistic view ignoring numerous potential factors. But if you also broaden it to look at teams that made it to the finals or the conference finals (or some other definition of 'contender') you'll find a very consistent relationship. If a team wants to have a shot of even having a shot at the finals it either needs to:

    1) use top picks to draft/trade for stars
    2) be a top NBA market who willingly throws money around for stars.
    3) build a once in a generation 2000s Pistons or 1990s Jazz team

    Though people claim drafting stars is unreliable, its much more reliable than any other option in Toronto.

    Personally I care about the pick. I care about every pick. I care about them alot. But I also want Toronto to have a shot at being more than playoff fodder one day. Thats just me though.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Who would've thought that 3 weeks ago? Ya never know!!
    I thought. When many people were in panic mode there were very few of us who remained optimistic and were willing to say so in these forums. We got rocked by a lot of posters. The schedule was brutal to start the season, especially with so many new faces. There is absolutely no way that this roster is as bad as that 4-19 record.

    Look, I'm not saying this is a playoff team. In fact I don't think we have a chance of making the playoffs. But I do think that we will be knocking on the door as the 9-10 seed, which has me very excited. I am looking forward to caring about raptors basketball in march.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Lets see how you would feel if the Raptors had serious injuries next season to key players and end the year with 3th worst record and pick 5th in a strong wing draft class.

    I'd much rather finish the year strong and get the noose from around the neck removed regarding the draft pick.
    Or we could make the playoffs this for the next 4 or 5 seasons, evetually winning a title. I think competing in a playoff situation and creating a culture of winning is more important for this team than giving away a lower pick. If we make the playoffs this year, wouldn't it be more likely that we at least come close next year rather than just falling on our faces? It's great to plan for the worst and all that, but not at the expense of actual success.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    I thought. When many people were in panic mode there were very few of us who remained optimistic and were willing to say so in these forums. We got rocked by a lot of posters. The schedule was brutal to start the season, especially with so many new faces. There is absolutely no way that this roster is as bad as that 4-19 record.

    Look, I'm not saying this is a playoff team. In fact I don't think we have a chance of making the playoffs. But I do think that we will be knocking on the door as the 9-10 seed, which has me very excited. I am looking forward to caring about raptors basketball in march.
    Panic mode or calling it like it is/was mode?

    The schedule only showed the Raptors were not a good team. To be good the Raptors have to beat good teams. Outside of Indiana and Houston, that has yet to be done.

    The new faces is an excuse. There were lots of new faces last season AND a new coach with new systems and focus yet the Raptors started relatively strong last season.

    You did not mention it but injuries are also an excuse. Every team has injuries yet they don't cause the team to disintegrate (Chicago, Indiana, and Minnesota come immediately to mind).

    The team has done a total 180 and the biggest reason, now that Lowry is back and the winning/togetherness continues, appears to be Bargnani. Defense is better, offense is better, cohesiveness is better, coaching is better. The Raptors also have reason for optimism in improvement of youth (JV, TR, DD, ED) and the addition of pieces via near certain trades (Bargnani and to lesser extent Calderon).

    As it stands the Raptors appear to be the best of the worst and the worst of the average across the league. That is still an improvement over the near worst of the worst (thank you Washington).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Or we could make the playoffs this for the next 4 or 5 seasons, evetually winning a title. I think competing in a playoff situation and creating a culture of winning is more important for this team than giving away a lower pick. If we make the playoffs this year, wouldn't it be more likely that we at least come close next year rather than just falling on our faces? It's great to plan for the worst and all that, but not at the expense of actual success.
    1st bold: We could. But really? Forgetting about the pick positioning, freeing up the pick also helps facilitate a trade such as a recent example Lowry for a 1st round pick.

    2nd bold: One would think. But ask Milwaukee about 2 seasons ago or Portland and Phoenix about last season. And no matter what you do don't ask Golden State about what happened after 2007.

    I want to see Toronto moving in a direction that does not place a cap of mediocrity as best case scenario.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I love your optimism, but they are 9 games back from .500. That's still a huge hill to climb. Boston who is in 8th is two games back from .500 which means we would have to win our next 7 games to have a similar record percentage wise (assuming Boston keeps their pace).

    It sure would be a hell of a season if they got into the playoffs.. although a part of me would prefer that they just miss it so that they can give that pick to OKC.
    That's an interesting metric you're using...we're still 3.5 games back of the Celtics and a playoff spot. And currently the three teams ahead of us are in a bad free fall while we are tearing it up and have a favourable schedule for the next month.

    And the Celtics have a tough month ahead playing a bunch of playoff teams.
    Last edited by Gman; Mon Dec 31st, 2012 at 10:50 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    1st bold: We could. But really? Forgetting about the pick positioning, freeing up the pick also helps facilitate a trade such as a recent example Lowry for a 1st round pick.

    2nd bold: One would think. But ask Milwaukee about 2 seasons ago or Portland and Phoenix about last season. And no matter what you do don't ask Golden State about what happened after 2007.

    I want to see Toronto moving in a direction that does not place a cap of mediocrity as best case scenario.
    So do I, but I don't think mediocrity is our cap right now. We have three players in Ed Davis, Jonas, and Ross that have a long way to go before they hit their peaks. Derozan, Amir Johnson, Fields (maybe) and Lowry are still young and have not reached their ceilings yet. As far as I'm concerned, those 7 players are our future and pushing their development in the right direction, which means having them actually play for something, is the most important thing. If we make the playoffs this season, I think that is the first step to this franchise being relavant again.

    The flexibility of getting 9th this year would be great, and you're right, it may help us acquire talent in the long run. At the same time, I think we need to figure out what we have before we start making deals and competing is the best way to do that.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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