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Thread: Just an article I read on Hoopsworld about Bargnani's trade rumors...

  1. #1
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    Default Just an article I read on Hoopsworld about Bargnani's trade rumors...

    Bargnani tore some ligaments in his right elbow and has been out of action since Dec. 11. The word is that the injury did not require surgery and that an extensive rehab was all that would be required to get Bargnani back. The problem with that concept is Bargnani isnít exactly the hardest worker in the league and the expected window of sometime in January seems more like late January or early February. League sources say it would be almost impossible to move Bargnani and the three years and $32.25 million remaining on his deal until he returns and proves the elbow isnít going to be a problem. It is clear that Toronto will explore moving Bargnani once he returns to action, and the hope is that return is sometime in early February so teams can get a good look at Bargnani before the February 21st NBA trade deadline. The Raptors want to dump the salary associated with Bargnani and are not seeking much in return for Bargs. Sources close to the Raptors say they have several players they would consider taking on Ė a shopping list of sorts Ė and most of them are players radically out of Torontoís reach unless other assets are packed in. The Raptors have been linked to Lakers big man Pau Gasol, Milwaukeeís Ersan Ilyasova, and Denverís Wilson Chandler; however, Raptors sources warn taking on a ton of long-term salary is not what they are looking for in a deal unless itís exactly the right player.

    Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-few...pfxjcdb6EBe.99
    Couple things I've noticed in this article. I've bolded those things.

    1. "League sources say it would be almost impossible to move Bargnani and the three years and $32.25 million remaining on his deal until he returns and proves the elbow isnít going to be a problem." This will seriously be a problem if Bargnani doesn't come to play well at all by the February 21 trade deadline. It shows that his elbow is a legitimate issue and will seriously lower his trade value even further (as if it wasn't low enough to begin with).

    2. "(The Raptors) are not seeking much in return for Bargs." This concerns me personally. I'm pretty sure all of you just want Bargnani gone period, but I personally don't want BC to trade him just for the sake of trading him or to save his career as the Raptors GM. I want at least something that is of value to the team for him (picks, young players, energy/hustle players, and/or players that will provide some spark off the bench). I don't want more scrubby players. If I were BC, I would seriously consider going strongly after Granger since he's like the only true star SF we can get with Bargnani/Calderon. Both Barg and Granger's trade value are at an all time low since they're both plagued by injury while Calderon's trade value is at an all-time high. Though I do agree that Granger is a gamble due to his knee issues, but surely he'll still play way better than Bargnani ever played this year, right?

    3. "Raptors sources warn taking on a ton of long-term salary is not what they are looking for in a deal unless itís exactly the right player." I don't think this is the right approach to go by. I understand why, but I would seriously consider taking on long-term salary for a high draft pick in this year's draft (yes it's 2013 already ). For example, a trade that has been going on RR for a while now, Bargs for Okafor and the Wizard's 2013 first round draft pick. I think these are trades that we should seriously consider and not just immediately throw out the window.

    Just some of my thoughts on the article I just read. Any other thoughts or opinions on the situation? Any disagreements on my opinion is welcomed!

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    I personally do not like the timing for the trade. I am willing to wait on the rehab and play Andrea until the injury concerns are squashed.

    I don't like getting reduced value for the sake of movement, much rather incorporate Andrea into a 6th man, than move him for nothing.... in fact by the sound of the above, you will never get a 6th man back, and that is just ridiculous. I don't want the Raptors to be the NBA's door mat, screw anyone that thinks there is a fire sale here. My middle finger is up to anyone that takes point 2 seriously.

    As for point 3, I think its a good one. I am on your side, I honestly do not care about MLSE coffers all that much, so I am biased, but it seems like a sure way to BUY talent, if that is what this organization wants. You pay for it, you have it. They have the money, Bryan being fiscally responsible may just be a losers reaction to please his boss. If he wants to build a franchise, he should take this option seriously.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post

    I don't like getting reduced value for the sake of movement, much rather incorporate Andrea into a 6th man, than move him for nothing.... in fact by the sound of the above, you will never get a 6th man back, and that is just ridiculous. I don't want the Raptors to be the NBA's door mat, screw anyone that thinks there is a fire sale here. My middle finger is up to anyone that takes point 2 seriously.
    +1

    also i would not want any max year players with more than next year on their contracts except pau. my hopes for davis being very good are coming to pass and i want to make sure we can match any offer he can attract.
    For The Win

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I personally don't believe Bargnani's trade value was ever very high, so its not a suprise that given his start to this year he may be deemed a liability in a trade right now (ie. an cost in a deal, rather than an asset). His deficiencies have been long recognized (rebounding, defense, soft, inconsistent, lack of motivation) and add whats likely to be a new moniker (injury prone) - if the Raps are able to trade him without having to give up additional assets (whether thats players or future cap space) the deal should be considered a win for this team.

    As far as I'm concerned the only bad deal for Bargnani (straight up thats is) is one that worse than sticking him on the end of the bench and waiting for the option to amnesty him this offseason. ie taking back a long term albatross contract that doesn't come along with additional assets such as picks (ex. Amare Stoudamire).

    This is long, long, long overdue. There comes a time when one just needs to cut their losses and move on. This is one of those times.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Yeah, I also don't believe his value was that high. I think the people who worry about the elbow and his trade value see things very differently than me. I think the issue is not to prove he's healthy to get a better player necessarily. I think the issue is if he doesn't play well enough to show he's healthy, he will not really have any trade value. This does not make it an issue of whether we end up with Granger, or Okafor + picks, or Gasol, or whatever...It's an issue of whether he'll really have any value at all. I don't think BC would trade him for nothing, but I do think the article is correct and that it wouldn't take much.

    I think straight up, the Okafor deal or one like it might work for TOR. Getting an overpaid, but shorter contract veteran. Okafor would be a better all around C than Gray to play backup or start occasionally as JV grows for the next couple of seasons. The pick could be either for this year or next, though it would probably have to be protected to some degree. I haven't looked around much, but basically there are a few reasons a deal like this is acceptable.
    -First, Okafor has high character, and any deal would have to bring that in, thus disqualifying any deal for a guy like Cousins.
    -Second, we get a pick. This could also be a young prospect (ŗ la Derrick Williams) who needs a change. My ideal would be to get a 2014 pick rather than for 2013. This draft looks weak, but also heavy on bigs, which may be the last thing we need as there is no Anthony Davis or Blake Griffin standout at this point.
    -Third, they get a usable veteran, and another veteran who can play some minutes would be good. It could be a C, SF or PG (assuming we trade Jose or maybe even Lowry away before the deadline).
    -Fourth, salary-wise it works. Any deal would have to improve the Raptors cap situation. Though Okafor, or Gasol, make more money, they both have shorter deals, and would be useful enough to possibly justify their salaries, especially since we're not likely to make much of a splash until at least 2014 as our payroll stands now.
    So if BC can get some combination of these things(cap relief, a useful/solid vet, youth/picks), with character always being a given, he will make a deal. I don't think he would take on useless long term salary or another team's problem.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jan 1st, 2013 at 10:06 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Oh, I forgot to say...the reason I say playing him will be to see if he has any value at all, is that teams won't trade for a guy who is not physically able to play and has that much money left. If Bargs' season is ruined from the elbow injury, so is any chance of trading him at all. If he's obviously healthy, playing well will maybe only marginally affect his trade value compared to if he was obviously healthy and not playing that well. And I do believe pro scouts and coaches can tell when performance is off due to physical issues or just the situation.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post

    2. "(The Raptors) are not seeking much in return for Bargs." This concerns me personally. I'm pretty sure all of you just want Bargnani gone period, but I personally don't want BC to trade him just for the sake of trading him or to save his career as the Raptors GM. I want at least something that is of value to the team for him (picks, young players, energy/hustle players, and/or players that will provide some spark off the bench). I don't want more scrubby players. If I were BC, I would seriously consider going strongly after Granger since he's like the only true star SF we can get with Bargnani/Calderon. Both Barg and Granger's trade value are at an all time low since they're both plagued by injury while Calderon's trade value is at an all-time high. Though I do agree that Granger is a gamble due to his knee issues, but surely he'll still play way better than Bargnani ever played this year, right?

    3. "Raptors sources warn taking on a ton of long-term salary is not what they are looking for in a deal unless it’s exactly the right player." I don't think this is the right approach to go by. I understand why, but I would seriously consider taking on long-term salary for a high draft pick in this year's draft (yes it's 2013 already ). For example, a trade that has been going on RR for a while now, Bargs for Okafor and the Wizard's 2013 first round draft pick. I think these are trades that we should seriously consider and not just immediately throw out the window.

    Just some of my thoughts on the article I just read. Any other thoughts or opinions on the situation? Any disagreements on my opinion is welcomed!
    On your points specifically. #2 is just unlikely. If Bargs does not have much value, how would we net a starting SF, especially Granger? Indiana has both a starting PF and starting PG. They do not really need Bargs off the bench. If they were to give us Granger, it would more likely cost Ed/Amir, Ross and one of our PGs (because either could challenge Hill or be a much better backup than what they've got). I just have a hard time seeing us getting a potential starting SF in any Bargs deal unless it's just an unspectacular veteran role player, or an unproven young player.
    on #3. I generally agree as I'm clearly a fan of the Okafor deal, but it is actually shorter than Bargs' contract. I think the article really does mean taking on long-term salary. In other words, any deal of equal or greater value AND length than Bargs', like Javale McGee's 44 million, 2016 expiring deal.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    On your points specifically. #2 is just unlikely. If Bargs does not have much value, how would we net a starting SF, especially Granger? Indiana has both a starting PF and starting PG. They do not really need Bargs off the bench. If they were to give us Granger, it would more likely cost Ed/Amir, Ross and one of our PGs (because either could challenge Hill or be a much better backup than what they've got). I just have a hard time seeing us getting a potential starting SF in any Bargs deal unless it's just an unspectacular veteran role player, or an unproven young player.
    on #3. I generally agree as I'm clearly a fan of the Okafor deal, but it is actually shorter than Bargs' contract. I think the article really does mean taking on long-term salary. In other words, any deal of equal or greater value AND length than Bargs', like Javale McGee's 44 million, 2016 expiring deal.
    I'd be absolutely shocked if the Wiz gave up a first round pick (almost guaranteed to be high lottery) with Okafor for Bargnani. I think as you mention, if a team is giving up a first round pick (especially a lottery pick) its gonna be for a lot more than just losing a 2 year contract.

    Then again it is the Wiz and I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Grunfeld is the single worst GM in this league by a mile. So I wouldn't say its impossible.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    There once was a team that gave up TJ Ford, a 1st round pick and took on a ridiculous contract for damaged goods O'Neal. Maybe we should fire Bryan first, wait for him to get hired, and make a deal for Andrea through him.


    It's weird how these deals never come around for us.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Tue Jan 1st, 2013 at 11:11 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'd be absolutely shocked if the Wiz gave up a first round pick (almost guaranteed to be high lottery) with Okafor for Bargnani. I think as you mention, if a team is giving up a first round pick (especially a lottery pick) its gonna be for a lot more than just losing a 2 year contract.

    Then again it is the Wiz and I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Grunfeld is the single worst GM in this league by a mile. So I wouldn't say its impossible.
    Okafor for sure, even straight up.http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

    Fact is, Bargnani has a piss poor reputation around the league. His attitude is well known. BC is going to have to go out on a limb to get some value for him.

    For instance, Cousins may be a head-case, and a poison in Sacramento, but that may just be the only way we could get value. Two teams rolling the dice and trading headache for headache.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Pele wrote: View Post
    Okafor for sure, even straight up.http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

    Fact is, Bargnani has a piss poor reputation around the league. His attitude is well known. BC is going to have to go out on a limb to get some value for him.

    For instance, Cousins may be a head-case, and a poison in Sacramento, but that may just be the only way we could get value. Two teams rolling the dice and trading headache for headache.
    if were trading for headcases then why not just trade Bargs to LA for Metta....

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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    There once was a team that gave up TJ Ford, a 1st round pick and took on a ridiculous contract for damaged goods O'Neal. Maybe we should fire Bryan first, wait for him to get hired, and make a deal for Andrea through him.
    Beautiful, I can just read the 2014 headline

    "6-Player Trade, Biyombo, Walker, Kidd-Gilchrest for Bargnani, Acey and 2nd round pick"

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    I'm in.

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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    if were trading for headcases then why not just trade Bargs to LA for Metta....
    sorry,

    I'm in.

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    2. "(The Raptors) are not seeking much in return for Bargs." This concerns me personally. I'm pretty sure all of you just want Bargnani gone period, but I personally don't want BC to trade him just for the sake of trading him or to save his career as the Raptors GM. I want at least something that is of value to the team for him (picks, young players, energy/hustle players, and/or players that will provide some spark off the bench). I don't want more scrubby players. If I were BC, I would seriously consider going strongly after Granger since he's like the only true star SF we can get with Bargnani/Calderon. Both Barg and Granger's trade value are at an all time low since they're both plagued by injury while Calderon's trade value is at an all-time high. Though I do agree that Granger is a gamble due to his knee issues, but surely he'll still play way better than Bargnani ever played this year, right?

    If BC dumps the 7 years we've had to put up with Bargnani's "development" for a couple scrubs (a la the Babcock Carter trade of 2004) then I say we all gather at Yonge Dundas square, put on long robes and pillowcases with the eyes cut out, grab a bunch of tire irons and pitchforks, start burning a huge wickerman effigy of Brian in the square, start chanting Druidish curses on BC, jump into a bunch of red-neck pickup trucks, and go run the guy out of town.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    On your points specifically. #2 is just unlikely. If Bargs does not have much value, how would we net a starting SF, especially Granger? Indiana has both a starting PF and starting PG. They do not really need Bargs off the bench. If they were to give us Granger, it would more likely cost Ed/Amir, Ross and one of our PGs (because either could challenge Hill or be a much better backup than what they've got). I just have a hard time seeing us getting a potential starting SF in any Bargs deal unless it's just an unspectacular veteran role player, or an unproven young player.
    on #3. I generally agree as I'm clearly a fan of the Okafor deal, but it is actually shorter than Bargs' contract. I think the article really does mean taking on long-term salary. In other words, any deal of equal or greater value AND length than Bargs', like Javale McGee's 44 million, 2016 expiring deal.
    You make a good argument there.. I think the most likely scenario where we get a 'bad' contract is one in which the length is longer than Bargnani's.

    There are not many players in the league that have contracts longer than 3 years. Here are a few:

    Brook Lopez
    Eric Gordon
    David Lee
    Nene
    JaVale McGee
    Danilo Gallinari
    Gerald Wallace
    Thaddeus Young
    Jeff Green
    Mike Conley
    Ryan Anderson
    Taj Gibson
    George Hill
    Arron Afflalo
    Ersan Ilyasova
    Wilson Chandler
    Jamal Crawford
    Courtney Lee

    We know that Bryan was interested in Chandler and Ilyasova at one point.

    I could see a simple Chandler/Bargnani swap. Denver has a large enough TPE to take on Bargnani's contract so they don't have to give up any other player assets. Denver also has NY's 2014 first round pick.

    I would do a deal like that.

    Bargnani would probably drive George Karl insane though

    *EDIT - realized that Denver's 2014 pick could go to Orlando (either their's or NY's which ever is least desirable).. I say we take the other pick (the one that is more desirable).
    Last edited by planetmars; Tue Jan 1st, 2013 at 11:46 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'd be absolutely shocked if the Wiz gave up a first round pick (almost guaranteed to be high lottery) with Okafor for Bargnani. I think as you mention, if a team is giving up a first round pick (especially a lottery pick) its gonna be for a lot more than just losing a 2 year contract.

    Then again it is the Wiz and I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Grunfeld is the single worst GM in this league by a mile. So I wouldn't say its impossible.
    There is some minor merit to giving up a pick to get a player like Bargs. If the Wiz don't see immediate help in the draft and don't want to wait 3-4 years to develop someone, they could very well deem it worth giving up a 1st rd pick this year, in a weak draft, and as a bonus shed Okafor's contract. I could actually see him fitting in nicely in Washington. All their major backcourt players are young in Wall, Beal and Crawford, and like to drive and kick. Nene is someone I always thought would fit in well beside Bargs. Add to that Seraphin and Booker bringing energy off the bench, and that's not such a bad roster.

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    You make a good argument there.. I think the most likely scenario where we get a 'bad' contract is one in which the length is longer than Bargnani's.

    There are not many players in the league that have contracts longer than 3 years. Here are a few:

    Brook Lopez
    Eric Gordon
    David Lee
    Nene
    JaVale McGee
    Danilo Gallinari
    Gerald Wallace
    Thaddeus Young
    Jeff Green
    Mike Conley
    Ryan Anderson
    Taj Gibson
    George Hill
    Arron Afflalo
    Ersan Ilyasova
    Wilson Chandler
    Jamal Crawford
    Courtney Lee

    We know that Bryan was interested in Chandler and Ilyasova at one point.

    I could see a simple Chandler/Bargnani swap. Denver has a large enough TPE to take on Bargnani's contract so they don't have to give up any other player assets. Denver also has NY's 2014 first round pick.

    I would do a deal like that.

    Bargnani would probably drive George Karl insane though

    *EDIT - realized that Denver's 2014 pick could go to Orlando (either their's or NY's which ever is least desirable).. I say we take the other pick (the one that is more desirable).
    A lot of names...a lot wouldn't be on the block, especially for a guy like Bargs. I can't see Denver pulling that kind of deal. ON paper it's not so bad, but Denver is already a playoff team with some good players. They need a great player to get them over the hump, and I doubt Ujiri, who knows Bargs firsthand, will believe he's the missing piece.
    I could see Jeff Green being available. He's struggled a bit in Boston, and Boston has struggled with a lack of size. We hate on Bargs a lot for rebounding, but he has learned to use his body pretty well at least for man D. I'm sure Boston, with KG and Rondo in the locker room, are one of the only teams who might roll the dice on Bargs thinking they have the leaders to push him...All that said, not sure Jeff Green makes us a much better team, even if he gets his game together. Somehow though, I think if Boston decides to start making deals they might just blow it up. It's obvious they're not contenders at this point.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    There is no way in hell the Knicks would ever trade Chandler for Bargs

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    There is no way in hell the Knicks would ever trade Chandler for Bargs
    It's Wilson Chandler being talked about.

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