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Thread: Gay to debut for Raptors on Sunday [Post #727]

  1. #241
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA

    One more thing on Gay-Raptors: Two teams have been discussing trade for a month and still haven't reached an agreement. No deal is imminent.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #242
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm down with Gay on 2 conditions:

    1) Lowry/TR/JV remains
    2) DeRozan and Bargnani are moved - I'd rather pay Gay $18M for 2 years than Bargnani/DeRozan for 2/4 years.


    To be honest I am not overly enthused by this deal or the rumours. Just talking about what the Twitterverse gives us.
    Here is a scary thought - one of the players involved in this deal (Ed) was supposed to be the guy who had taken over Bargnani's starting role.

    Now, unless one believe Casey would give Acy/Arthur (assuming he is involved ofcourse) greater or significant burn or that he'd play Amir at PF (despite being almost exclusively C - except during Bargnani's injuries last year - for the past two years) that suddenly means someone.... cough.... would be getting the minutes.

    In the back of my mind I hear "come hell or high water". In the front of my mind I realize how little Bargnani trade talk has taken place recently. How little value he seems to have around the league. Then I recall Colangelo calling Bargnani an 'asset' after the 2010/11 season only to see him cemented into the center peice. Then I look at a trade for Gay and see another step of 'accelerated rebuilding'.

    Oh how I'm not convinced Bargnani is going anywhere, and this deal may further entrench his position here.

  3. #243
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    If it aint broke dont fix it which is a tried and true formula. Memphis is playing great ball If you were GM would you trade Gay? ask yourselves that question.

    Memphis is suddenly taking calls abain because of the need of another PG with Mike Conley having ankle and knee issues and Bayless being streaky Bayless.

  4. #244
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Crisis averted:



    When Woj is reporting, shit is real in my opinion.
    Thats what I figured when i read Woj's stuff. The Raps had no takers for Calderon because no one had any incentive to get involved in the deal other than just paying Calderon as a rental for the year. Now a playoff team that could go somewhere this year + had cap space, sure. But does that team exist? lol Memphis I guess.

  5. #245
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Fair enough. I would rather not pay any of them but I guess I would rather pay Rudy Gay than Derozan/Bargs, too.

    I advocated considering a blockbuster this summer, along with trying to sign Nash, as an alternative to a full-on rebuild but I just can't get behind any half-ass plans like this one. To me, if you really want to win now, you have to do something similar to what Boston, Miami, the Knicks, Brooklyn have done recently. You can't just add Rudy Gay and hope for the best, which is what this feels like to me.
    But aren't you assuming that Gay can't contribute for many years to come?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #246
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    An interesting exercise would be to compile a list of teams in the playoff hunt that might need/want the services of Calderon. From that list, a smaller list of teams could be found that has cap space and/or tradeable assets to acquire Calderon in a multi-team deal.

    A couple teams come to mind:
    - Lakers --> with Bargnani for Gasol?
    - Celtics --> tough to lineup trade value; would Memphis want Green and perhaps Sullinger/Bradley?
    - Jazz --> with Mo Williams likely out until March, might they have interest? And/or DeRozan for Millsap?
    - Pacers --> would Memphis want Granger?


    The only other option is teams that have cap space (would likely want a draft pick for helping) and/or contracts they'd like to get rid of as well.

  7. #247
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    But aren't you assuming that Gay can't contribute for many years to come?
    If the Gay move is part of a larger overhaul I could live with it. But again, I don't think there is a larger plan here. The "plan" is, "We are worse than we imagined and this roster is terrible. Let's make a panic trade for someone to try and help us fight for 9th place so we can sell season tickets next year or something."

    Honestly, I am not sure who would be driving this: Colangelo or MLSE. Whoever it is, it's not a trade that's part of some grand plan, it's just adding some glue and styrofoam to the ball of popsicle sticks, gum, tape, paper clips, etc....

  8. #248
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You mean the concussion he missed one game for?

    And then came back to light up Toronto for 26/11?
    Concussions are serious, and one of the least understood injuries in sports. The fact that he missed a game for it, should tell you that it was serious. When have we had a raptor miss a game due to a concussion? I wouldn't just meh... that missed game, its serious stuff.


    Anyway, you still have not explained away his horrible efficiency this year. For me, shoulder injury, concision, inexplicable FG% in contrast to his career, mean warning signs. (You are seeing upside, I am seeing current reality and hence think his value should be reduced)


    I think you are way overvaluing Gay and I doubt Memphis will get what they think he is worth.
    (Memphis does not see the upside that you do, they want to move him, they know him best)
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Tue Jan 29th, 2013 at 04:52 PM.

  9. #249
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Concussions are serious, and one of the least understood injuries in sports. The fact that he missed a game for it, should tell you that it was serious. When have we had a raptor miss a game due to a concussion? I wouldn't just meh... that missed game, its serious stuff.


    Anyway, you still have not explained away his horrible efficiency this year. For me, shoulder injury, concision, inexplicable FG% in contrast to his career, mean warning signs. (You are seeing upside, I am seeing current reality and hence think his value should be reduced)


    I think you are way overvaluing Gay and I doubt Memphis will get what they think he is worth.
    The decreased efficiency could very well be at least partially a bi-product of the constant trade rumors swirling about him and the fact that the Memphis fanbase has been trying to run him out of town as a scapegoat for playoff failures (similar to how Raptors fans key in on Bargnani). For his part, I think he's handled the entire situation quite professionally, but having all that negativity directed at you has got to take a toll at some point.

    I'm not saying it's the only reason, or minimzing his declining %. However, I think a change of scenery will do him a world of good. When he's playing well, he's very aggressive, engaged on both ends of the court and definitely in the top-tier of SFs in the league.

  10. #250
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The decreased efficiency could very well be at least partially a bi-product of the constant trade rumors swirling about him and the fact that the Memphis fanbase has been trying to run him out of town as a scapegoat for playoff failures (similar to how Raptors fans key in on Bargnani). For his part, I think he's handled the entire situation quite professionally, but having all that negativity directed at you has got to take a toll at some point.

    I'm not saying it's the only reason, or minimzing his declining %. However, I think a change of scenery will do him a world of good. When he's playing well, he's very aggressive, engaged on both ends of the court and definitely in the top-tier of SFs in the league.
    It could be.

    ...but why should I gamble my young prospects who are healthy for "could be", and promised potential that I don't presently see? Not to mention pay the top price for it, its not like he is on a rookie contract.

  11. #251
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Concussions are serious, and one of the least understood injuries in sports. The fact that he missed a game for it, should tell you that it was serious. When have we had a raptor miss a game due to a concussion? I wouldn't just meh... that missed game, its serious stuff.


    Anyway, you still have not explained away his horrible efficiency this year. For me, shoulder injury, concision, inexplicable FG% in contrast to his career, mean warning signs. (You are seeing upside, I am seeing current reality and hence think his value should be reduced)


    I think you are way overvaluing Gay and I doubt Memphis will get what they think he is worth.
    (Memphis does not see the upside that you do, they want to move him, they know him best)
    Dude I've had 2 concussions from playing ball and lord knows how many smacks in the head in my younger days on the booze. COncussions are no doubt serious when involved in repetitive hits to the head but this is a concern for MMA, boxing, football, and hockey more than basketball. He got knocked in the head and missed a game. I think this is mountains out of mole hills.

    As for his efficiency, it is a much discussed topic and I'm not going in to it again. Sorry. Bottom line is I'd rather pay Rudy 2 years and $36M than DeRozan and Bargnani 6 (DD/AB 2; DD 2 more) total seasons at $63M.

    I am hardly overvaluing Gay when I think he is better than DD and Bargnani. Gay has talent of which there is no question. New system and new surroundings, who knows. The guy is 26.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #252
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    It could be.

    ...but why should I gamble my young prospects who are healthy for "could be", and promised potential that I don't presently see? Not to mention pay the top price for it, its not like he is on a rookie contract.
    Of course it all depends on the price paid.

    I like Davis & Amir, but think their style of play is too similar. Ever since the offseason prior to least year's lockout-shortened season, I've been pushing for the Raps to trade one of them (especially when Bargnani was positively in the PF mix, meaning one of them would essentially be a 3rd string player). I would still be in favor of trading one of them (to facilitate a trade to address a major weakness - ie: SF), in addition to trading Bargnani. The Raps could either get a backup PF as part of return in trade (ie: Arthur), or possibly look to sign a new starting PF in the offseason (ie: Millsap), leaving whoever remains of Davis/Amir as the backup PF.

    Millsap intrigues me. I keep playing around with the ESPN Trade Machine, with Calderon & DeRozan heading to Utah for Millsap. If Memphis really wants to shed salary, they could take on a variety of expiring contracts from Utah (ie: Mo Williams, Raja Bell) or even a couple decent young/cheap players (ie: Burks), in addition to Davis. Of course it's an extreme long-shot, I'm sure. It's hard because we don't really know what Memphis's motivations and/or demands really are - shed salary, or equal replacements, or young prospects, or draft picks, or a combination of all of the above?

    If Bargnani's ($10M) contract can be unloaded (either as part of a trade for Gay, or in a separate trade), in addition to Calderon's ($10.5) contract being unloaded and Kleiza ($4.5) either being traded/amnestied (not even worrying about DeRozan's contract for the time being), that would clear more than enough cap space to offset that acquisition of Gay ($16.5M vs $25M). So, from a financial standpoint, I think there's definitely the potential for Gay's contract to NOT be the albatross that it would otherwise seem to be at first glance. Obviously several dominos would have to fall for this rationalization to come to fruition.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 29th, 2013 at 05:07 PM.

  13. #253
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Dude I've had 2 concussions from playing ball and lord knows how many smacks in the head in my younger days on the booze. COncussions are no doubt serious when involved in repetitive hits to the head but this is a concern for MMA, boxing, football, and hockey more than basketball. He got knocked in the head and missed a game. I think this is mountains out of mole hills.

    As for his efficiency, it is a much discussed topic and I'm not going in to it again. Sorry. Bottom line is I'd rather pay Rudy 2 years and $36M than DeRozan and Bargnani 6 (DD/AB 2; DD 2 more) total seasons at $63M.

    I am hardly overvaluing Gay when I think he is better than DD and Bargnani. Gay has talent of which there is no question. New system and new surroundings, who knows. The guy is 26.
    You are not the 20th at your given skill in the in the world. Damage to the a specific part of your brain can very easily change your abilities by percentage modifiers that are only 5-10%, for a professional athlete that could be a world of difference. For you and me, its not going to matter that much.

    The brain also heals over time, I had a serious concussion as well. I fell off a bunk in private school and was rushed to Sick Kids hospital, my optic nerve got severed from the impact, and I became a very famous patient for research in the administration of cortiso steroids after head trauma.

    After my concussion, I climbed back into bed and went to sleep which I shouldn't of have. Went to the infirmary thinking I had swelling out of my eye, when in fact there was no physical damage on the outside. To me it was no big deal at the time, like I said, I jumped back into the bunk, but the damage was significant enough that I lost sight in one eye (today I have 85% vision in that eye due to quick application of cortiso steroids by sick childrens hospital in Toronto, it was at 15% post injury. I could not make out a huge letter E on the front of the chart).


    Now I don't mean to imply Gay is damaged goods, but it is something I will use as an erosion point to get the price to what I think is worth it. Hey may be he may not be, the fact Memphis does not see the upside you do at his price, worries me.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Tue Jan 29th, 2013 at 05:21 PM.

  14. #254
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    there is only one thing that matters in this game, and that is to GET BUCKETS... Rudy Gay GETS BUCKETS
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  15. #255
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    You are not the 20th at your given skill in the in the world. Damage to the a specific part of your brain can very easily change your abilities by percentage modifiers that are only 5-10%, for a professional athlete that could be a world of difference. For you and me, its not going to matter that much.

    The brain also heals over time, I had a serious concussion as well. I fell off a bunk in private school and was rushed to Sick Kids hospital, my optic nerve got severed from the impact, and I became a very famous patient for research in the administration of cortiso steroids after head trauma.

    After my concussion, I climbed back into bed and went to sleep which I shouldn't of have. Went to the infirmary thinking I had swealing out of my eye, when in fact there was no physical damage on the outside. To me it was no big deal at the time, like I said jumped back into the bunk, but the damage was significant enough that I lost sight in one eye.


    Now I don't mean to imply Gay is damaged goods, but it is something I will use as an erosion point to get the price to what I think is worth it. Hey may be he may not be, the fact Memphis does not see the upside you do at his price, worries me.
    Then why the ongoing discussion of a minor concussion that caused him to miss one game a year ago? You had a serious head trauma that needed immediate medical attention and had lasting effects. This is not Rudy Gay's situation.

    Lets gets something straight here: there was a time when I valued Gay but it is not now. Now would be the ultimate buying low opportunity on him (assuming Colangelo is not an idiot.... ah shit, nevermind) in theory. My value of Gay is Gay > Bargnani + DeRozan. If things don't work out with Gay, at most he is here for 2 years. We know things are not working out for Bargnani and DeRozan and they are here for another 2 and 4 years respectively.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    there is only one thing that matters in this game, and that is to GET BUCKETS... Rudy Gay GETS BUCKETS
    lol +1

  17. #257
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Then why the ongoing discussion of a minor concussion that caused him to miss one game a year ago? You had a serious head trauma that needed immediate medical attention and had lasting effects. This is not Rudy Gay's situation.

    Lets gets something straight here: there was a time when I valued Gay but it is not now. Now would be the ultimate buying low opportunity on him (assuming Colangelo is not an idiot.... ah shit, nevermind) in theory. My value of Gay is Gay > Bargnani + DeRozan. If things don't work out with Gay, at most he is here for 2 years. We know things are not working out for Bargnani and DeRozan and they are here for another 2 and 4 years respectively.
    Again, I don't think any documented concision is minor. Especially for a pro athlete, who suddenly is on a down turn.

    I think his entire injury history, and his current performance impacts his present value. These are thoroughbreds, don't compare yourself to them. Every factor should be considered, when determining value.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Tue Jan 29th, 2013 at 05:33 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    I think we need to wait and see. I think things will fall apart and things will be back to normal. No takers for Jose. Poor guy.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  19. #259
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Again, I don't think any documented concision is minor. Especially for a pro athlete, who suddenly is on a down turn.

    I think his entire injury history, and his current performance impacts his present value. There is a thoroughbreds, don't compare yourself to them. Every factor should be considered.
    Concussions happen all the time in sports like hockey and football. Its nothin man, let it go.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  20. #260
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Again, I don't think any documented concision is minor. Especially for a pro athlete, who suddenly is on a down turn.

    I think his entire injury history, and his current performance impacts his present value. There is a thoroughbreds, don't compare yourself to them. Every factor should be considered.
    I can't compare two basketball induced concussions as cause for minor concern but you can use your experience falling out of a bunk as an example of why a concussion is serious?

    Ok. Makes total sense.

    His play and contract are issues. Not a freak shoulder injury and a one time concussion.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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