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Thread: Gay to debut for Raptors on Sunday [Post #727]

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    I'm torn. On the one hand, I like Davis' development, on the other, Gay could thrive here and give us that closer we so desperately need. I wish Demar wasn't signed to his ridiculous contract. I wish Landry wasn't signed to a ridiculous one as well. In that regard, it makes Gay's potential entry into the Raps salary books more palatable.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I think Gay is a good player but trading for him is just adding another handcuff to the treadmill.

    Individually, trading for him is fine. In the macro picture its a waste of time.

    Fire Colangelo now, before he can sacrifice anymore of this teams future. We shouldn't scuttle the ship because the captain is lost. Just throw him overboard.
    My assumption is that the really ugly contracts (like Kleiza, Bargnani, and DeRozan) will be eventually removed if Gay is acquired. Thus, keeping the handcuffs off.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This!

    Rudy Gay is overrated and severely overpaid. Getting him at the cost of Davis/Calderon/another piece does not guarantee the Raptors make the playoffs this season or beyond, but it does burn up assets and financial flexibility for the future. And I know this board is mostly pro-Lowry but Calderon has been arguably the team's best player this season and Davis isn't too far behind. Removing them from the line-up will have it's downside too.

    And is anyone concerned at all what this will do from a team chemistry standpoint?
    With Davis and Calderon, does that guarantee them a playoff berth, this season or beyond?
    OK, considering Calderon is arguably the best player this season and Davis is not far behind, what is that currently doing for the team? Are the Raps in the top of the standings? Secured a playoff spot? With Calderon and Davis at the helm? I agree, of course removing them will have a downside, but with them here, its currently not taking the team anywhere, do you agree?

    Again, sure there is chemistry, but where is this chemistry taking the team? Is chemistry taking them to the playoffs? Calderon has been here for 8 years, with 2 playoff appearances. He does bring chemistry to the team but unfortunately it doesnt equal post season.


    Justification:

    If Gay to Toronto doesnt work out:
    2 years and Raps get $20mil in cap space
    1 year he's a tradeable asset as $20mil expiring
    In 2 years, if Ed continues his play, would you be willing to give him a big fat contract? And if what you see now is his ceiling, are you prepared to make him a cornerstone of your franchise moving forward?

    Lowry/Demar/Gay/Bargnani/JV

  4. #164
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    If we keep Lowry then I'm all for pairing him up with Rudy Gay. It's not the most ideal situation and I know I'm in the blow it up side of things, but since we've pretty much done nothing in the rebuilding department over the past year, we may as well give this one a shot.

    The key here is that the talent level increases.

    A lot of people talk about the treadmill. We aren't even on that thing yet.
    +1.

    When people talk about Atlanta being on the "treadmill of mediocrity", well, at least they make the playoffs year after year, which, if it happened to Toronto, would make crazy revenues for playoff games. The Raps keep avoiding the "treadmill of mediocrity" when in fact theyre already on the "treadmill of no-playoffs" year after year. What would you prefer? The problem with Atlanta was they stuck with the same group and didnt try to make major changes to get them to the 2nd round. If the GM's goal is just to make the playoffs every year then yeah that is a stinker but if the Raps keep making the playoffs the GM should constantly find deals to take the team to the next round.

  5. #165
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Trading for Rudy Gay flies in the face of everything I've been spewing of late (draft picks, draft picks, draft picks).

    But here is how I look at the Rudy situation: if I had to pay Rudy Gay $18M next year or Bargnani/DeRozan $18M (a little more actually), I'd rather pay Gay. So acquiring Gay would have to be the first of another move or two leaving the core of the team to be Lowry, Ross, Gay, Amir, JV with JL, Fields, AA, Arthur, Gray/Acy off the bench.

    So if Calderon/ED brings you Gay what does DeRozan and Bargnani bring to you?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    My assumption is that the really ugly contracts (like Kleiza, Bargnani, and DeRozan) will be eventually removed if Gay is acquired. Thus, keeping the handcuffs off.
    Hopefully Memphis realizes they have a hole on the 2 spot and decide to ask for Demar instead of Davis, considering they already have Gasol, Randolph and young bigs in Pondexter and Arthur. Or, they see the chemistry between Amir and Jose and ask for Amir instead and build a solid second unit with Jose and Amir.

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    With Davis and Calderon, does that guarantee them a playoff berth, this season or beyond?
    OK, considering Calderon is arguably the best player this season and Davis is not far behind, what is that currently doing for the team? Are the Raps in the top of the standings? Secured a playoff spot? With Calderon and Davis at the helm? I agree, of course removing them will have a downside, but with them here, its currently not taking the team anywhere, do you agree?

    Again, sure there is chemistry, but where is this chemistry taking the team? Is chemistry taking them to the playoffs? Calderon has been here for 8 years, with 2 playoff appearances. He does bring chemistry to the team but unfortunately it doesnt equal post season.


    Justification:

    If Gay to Toronto doesnt work out:
    2 years and Raps get $20mil in cap space
    1 year he's a tradeable asset as $20mil expiring
    In 2 years, if Ed continues his play, would you be willing to give him a big fat contract? And if what you see now is his ceiling, are you prepared to make him a cornerstone of your franchise moving forward?

    Lowry/Demar/Gay/Bargnani/JV
    + 1. I'm not sold on the so-called "chemistry" issue because it is pretty evident that this group trusts each other and have kept games close. The overtime loss to Miami is further proof to me that there's no chemistry issues with this group (Lowry rumours and such especially). They've kept games very close. I do think however that the Miami game (I know its one game) was the tipping point in determining what type of player they need - a consumate closer. Ignoring Gay's salary still makes him a good addition for this team. As for sneaking in the 8th and potentially bowing out in the first round against Miami? Well, the team played them hard enough in their own home court. There is a sense that the team can be competitive when against them.

    I'm not saying that this team getting in that 8-spot will shock the defending champs. All I'm saying is that there's enough glimmer in this group and perhaps they just need that extra push. I'm in the school of getting in the playoffs, even at the cost of getting blown out in the first round (although I think the team will be competitive with Gay against Miami).
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Trading for Rudy Gay flies in the face of everything I've been spewing of late (draft picks, draft picks, draft picks).

    But here is how I look at the Rudy situation: if I had to pay Rudy Gay $18M next year or Bargnani/DeRozan $18M (a little more actually), I'd rather pay Gay. So acquiring Gay would have to be the first of another move or two leaving the core of the team to be Lowry, Ross, Gay, Amir, JV with JL, Fields, AA, Arthur, Gray/Acy off the bench.

    So if Calderon/ED brings you Gay what does DeRozan and Bargnani bring to you?
    HEADACHES! hahaha

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Hopefully Memphis realizes they have a hole on the 2 spot and decide to ask for Demar instead of Davis, considering they already have Gasol, Randolph and young bigs in Pondexter and Arthur. Or, they see the chemistry between Amir and Jose and ask for Amir instead and build a solid second unit with Jose and Amir.
    You don't need a "Hollingeresque" Sabermetrician to realize just how inefficient Demar is and how poor his contract is in relation to his output. No way in hell they ask for Demar. We're stuck with him.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Trading for Rudy Gay flies in the face of everything I've been spewing of late (draft picks, draft picks, draft picks).

    But here is how I look at the Rudy situation: if I had to pay Rudy Gay $18M next year or Bargnani/DeRozan $18M (a little more actually), I'd rather pay Gay. So acquiring Gay would have to be the first of another move or two leaving the core of the team to be Lowry, Ross, Gay, Amir, JV with JL, Fields, AA, Arthur, Gray/Acy off the bench.

    So if Calderon/ED brings you Gay what does DeRozan and Bargnani bring to you?
    Matt, lets say the deal does go through, we get Gay and Arthur and lose Jose and Davis.

    How will this impact cap space next year? Will they still be able to add legitimate pieces?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Buschfire wrote: View Post
    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...With_Grizzlies

    this just in from real GM... Gay for Calderon and Ed Davis...
    If my man Eddy Davis gets traded. I'm going to cry, fuck rudy gay. I'd rather keep Ed
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  12. #172
    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Trading for Rudy Gay flies in the face of everything I've been spewing of late (draft picks, draft picks, draft picks).

    But here is how I look at the Rudy situation: if I had to pay Rudy Gay $18M next year or Bargnani/DeRozan $18M (a little more actually), I'd rather pay Gay. So acquiring Gay would have to be the first of another move or two leaving the core of the team to be Lowry, Ross, Gay, Amir, JV with JL, Fields, AA, Arthur, Gray/Acy off the bench.

    So if Calderon/ED brings you Gay what does DeRozan and Bargnani bring to you?
    Bolded part is very intruiging. Demar will be much easier to move next year compared to this year (poison pill) and Bargnani will need to show he is healthy to get anything worth while back in a move.

    Lowry, Ross, Gay, ______ & JV looks like a nice balance of offense/defense to me.

    Hopefully BC can get that first domino knocked over and get Gay to TO. On another note I like the idea of the Raps asking for Aurthur back in the deal as he'd be a quality big off the bench. I'm just curious what other players that Raps would have to include to make it work for those two. Anderson, JL3, Gray or Pietrus no problem just hope it's not Ross.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    You don't need a "Hollingeresque" Sabermetrician to realize just how inefficient Demar is and how poor his contract is in relation to his output. No way in hell they ask for Demar. We're stuck with him.
    +1. I think its funny how Demar is trying to rebound, yet registers 1-2 asts. He tries to get asts, and get 2-3 rebs. It astounds me that with his quickness, leaping ability and size, he cant do all three (score, reb and pass) consistently.

    Last night, he had 2-3 situations where he couldve dunked it and possibly get and1s. instead, he anticipates the contact and bounces back like a fly hit a wall. Or goes up and under on Curry, i mean Curry couldnt even jump and he still tried to do a circus shot.

  14. #174
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    If we can keep Ed and still acquire rudy gay, then i'd jizz my pants. It not completely out of the question tho, if another team jumps in we could make it possible with Bargs, Caldy and Kleiza/Pietrus/AA.
    A start lineup of:

    Lowry
    DeRozan
    Gay
    Eddy D
    Valanciunas

    Now that is a beastly lineup.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    +1. I think its funny how Demar is trying to rebound, yet registers 1-2 asts. He tries to get asts, and get 2-3 rebs. It astounds me that with his quickness, leaping ability and size, he cant do all three (score, reb and pass) consistently.

    Last night, he had 2-3 situations where he couldve dunked it and possibly get and1s. instead, he anticipates the contact and bounces back like a fly hit a wall. Or goes up and under on Curry, i mean Curry didnt even jump and he still tried to do a circus shot.
    I cannot even type the words that came out of my mouth on those instances. It is a piss off to say the least and I will leave it at that. It goes to show that DeRozan is not a smooth player and doesn't PLAY the game, he THINKS the game.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #176
    Raptors Republic Starter RAPresenting's Avatar
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    Pondexter is a SF not a big he's only 6'6" and is definitely a wing. Grizzlies have Allen who will start over DD at the two as well as Bayless and the two rookies Wroten and Johnson who can play minutes at the 2. Wroten after Ellingtons departure will see much more minutes and is a really nice prospect IMO. Also keep in mind that they have been linked with Sasha and Delonte West so not sure they need a 2 that bad if Gay is moved. I think it's the 3 spot where they will need the help.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote RAPresenting wrote: View Post
    Bolded part is very intruiging. Demar will be much easier to move next year compared to this year (poison pill) and Bargnani will need to show he is healthy to get anything worth while back in a move.

    Lowry, Ross, Gay, ______ & JV looks like a nice balance of offense/defense to me.

    Hopefully BC can get that first domino knocked over and get Gay to TO. On another note I like the idea of the Raps asking for Aurthur back in the deal as he'd be a quality big off the bench. I'm just curious what other players that Raps would have to include to make it work for those two. Anderson, JL3, Gray or Pietrus no problem just hope it's not Ross.
    I'm not sure why Demar would be easier to trade next year than this year. His new contract doesn't start until next year at which point the team would be trying to trade a 9 mil contract as opposed to a 4 mil contract. (Demar also doesn't have a poison pill contract - that refers to low front end contracts that jump at the end of their term so that the 'average cost' of the contract makes it unaffordable for a team)

    Matt52:

    if I had to pay Rudy Gay $18M next year or Bargnani/DeRozan $18M (a little more actually), I'd rather pay Gay
    I completely agree with this. Unfortunately this is (apparently) not the deal on the table . Also....

    So if Calderon/ED brings you Gay what does DeRozan and Bargnani bring to you?
    I imagine a whole hell of a lot less. And I can only tell you I want to be so very wrong on this.

  18. #178
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So if Calderon/ED brings you Gay what does DeRozan and Bargnani bring to you?
    Hopefully it's Paul Millsap.
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=a3bh38v

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    That's exactly my thinking too Matt. It's a bit contradictory to what we've been advocating but it's still moving in the right direction. Gay may not be the answer, but it's not like he's got 4 years left either. He still fits within the 2-3 year window before JV/Ross need an extension, and Gay is leaps and bounds better than everyone we've got including a healthy Lowry.

    I think Lowry is also better off playing with Gay.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  20. #180
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Gay plays with a defending 2 guard with bad handles in Memphis with Tony Allen. I think everyone is underestimating what a Rudy Gay and DeRozan 2,3 combo could do. The NBA isnt textbook anymore and Rudy Gay has a decent shot on his own.

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