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Thread: Chisholm sums up reality of any Rudy Gay deal

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=a7dammv

    There you go. I don't believe PHX has any interest in Bargnani. Assuming they were just dumping salary, there you go.
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  2. #122
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Why would Phoenix want Jose and give up their best wing for him? the only positive for them is getting rid of beasley

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Do you have a source for this?

    I can't see PHX interested in Bargnani.
    I don't know if there's a real source. I remember something similar, but not that much of a rumor. It was one of those "which teams might be interested" type articles. I don't even know if it was exclusively about Bargs, but I remember the PHX-TOR angle was that PHX needs a player who can put the ball in the hoop, and TOR might want a solid C like Gortat until JV can legitimately play 30 plus minutes...I also don't know why PHX would do this.
    I could see PHX making a run at Gay without a 3rd team. THey could start with Dudley, let them pick another wing like Shannon Brown, let them pick Gortat or Frye(they might want outside shooting at the big spots, though I'd bet they choose Gortat), and they have their own picks, and extra 1st rd picks from LA(unprotected) and Minnesota(protected).

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Default Hollinger's take on his Player

    Scouting report
    + Smooth, long wing with high-arcing jump shot. Can shoot over the top of a defense.
    + Outstanding transition finisher. Shies from contact and doesn't draw fouls.
    + Doesn't see the floor once he starts dribbling. Underachieves defensively.

    Analysis
    Gay has All-Star talent, but his jump shot let him down last season and he hasn't picked up his game in other areas. For starters, there's the jumper. Gay's stroke looks wonderful, but it doesn't go in as often as you think. Last season he made only 33.8 percent of his long 2s, and his 31.2 percent mark on 3s dropped his career mark to just 34.7 percent. He can get his shot off against anyone, and there's value in that, but there's not a lot of evidence that he's an above-average shooter.

    What does have value is when he takes shots near the basket. Gay shot 64 percent at the rim and had a high foul rate for a jump shooter; in particular, if he gets a step going right, he can throw down some vicious dunks. He also ranked in the top quarter of small forwards in both rebounds and blocks. In a related story, he played a lot of small-ball 4 and at 6-foot-9 may continue doing so going forward.

    However, he regressed in other areas. Gay is guilty of dribble blindness, and while he's improved from a few years ago, he still ranked among the bottom 10 small forwards in pure point rating. Defensively, he's had a hard time converting elite athleticism into decent results. His length nets him a lot of blocks and steals, but the Grizzlies gave up 6.0 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the floor.

  5. #125
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    CNNSI now in on the action, but seems to be all based on the Tweet from Stein @ ESPN: http://tracking.si.com/2013/01/09/ru...?sct=uk_t2_a14

    Another related story on CNNSI: http://nba.si.com/2013/01/08/rudy-ga...?sct=uk_t2_a13

    I doubt Memphis would look to reload by trading away both Gay & Randolph, but I suppose you never know. Randolph (31) is getting up there in age and the two make a combined $33M...

    I wonder if Randolph is traded, could Memphis possibly have interest in Bargnani as part of a trade for Gay? This is always a fun time of year for rampant speculation!

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    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You've already admitted that you agree that Anderson is NOT in the long-term plans for the Raptors, which means he's potentially taking playing time away from any/all of DeRozan, Ross and Fields (forgetting about Kleiza and Pietrus entirely).

    My point of view is about 3 things:
    1. maximizing playing time for your younger players who will be part of the future (DD, TR, LF)
    2. maximizing value of trade chips who aren't in future plans (AA)
    3. turning 2nd/3rd string players who aren't in the future plans into something that could become a player who becomes part of the future core group (ie: draft picks, young prospects)
    But aren't you advocating trading for Gay? Acquiring him would squeeze Ross, Fields and DeRozan for playing time more than Alan Anderson ever would, and you're paying him roughly 20x the money to do it.

  7. #127
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    But aren't you advocating trading for Gay? Acquiring him would squeeze Ross, Fields and DeRozan for playing time more than Alan Anderson ever would, and you're paying him roughly 20x the money to do it.
    I had said much earlier in this thread that my thoughts on Gay and Anderson are mutually exclusive.

    My thoughts on Anderson (the post you quoted) are as they relate to the current roster.

    When discussing a trade for Gay, my assumption is that DeRozan would be traded away (or Ross, but personally I'd rather it be DeRozan), still leaving 3 main young wings - Gay, Ross/DeRozan and Fields.

    As long as there are 3 young wings on the roster, regardless whether or not Gay is one of them, I still think that the best thing to do with Anderson is to cash him in while his value has peaked. He's not in the long-term plans for the Raptors and he shouldn't be any higher than #4 on the wing depth chart. Therefore, I'd much rather get a pick(s) and/or young prospect for him, which could develop into something serviceable for the long-term.

  8. #128
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Why would Phoenix want Jose and give up their best wing for him? the only positive for them is getting rid of beasley
    They wouldn't want Calderon. It would be a 100% salary dump. Given PHX/Sarver's history and current position in the standings, I don't think it is a stretch.

    Trade would save PHX $14.5M guaranteed and $18.75M if Dudley picked up his option in 3 seasons. Most importantly it rids them of Beasley who is now a healthy scratch in PHX and played 30 mins in last 7 games.

    For MEM they get under luxury tax, add 2 wings, and a young PF. Beasley's contract is not guaranteed for 2014-15 so if he doesn't get his sh!t together then he is gone in a season. If Z-Bo and Allen can't get Beasley to reach his potential, no one will.

    **By the way, I don't think this is even plausible or possible. Just rolling with what another poster said/suggested**
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #129
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Scouting report
    + Smooth, long wing with high-arcing jump shot. Can shoot over the top of a defense.
    + Outstanding transition finisher. Shies from contact and doesn't draw fouls.
    + Doesn't see the floor once he starts dribbling. Underachieves defensively.

    Analysis
    Gay has All-Star talent, but his jump shot let him down last season and he hasn't picked up his game in other areas. For starters, there's the jumper. Gay's stroke looks wonderful, but it doesn't go in as often as you think. Last season he made only 33.8 percent of his long 2s, and his 31.2 percent mark on 3s dropped his career mark to just 34.7 percent. He can get his shot off against anyone, and there's value in that, but there's not a lot of evidence that he's an above-average shooter.

    What does have value is when he takes shots near the basket. Gay shot 64 percent at the rim and had a high foul rate for a jump shooter; in particular, if he gets a step going right, he can throw down some vicious dunks. He also ranked in the top quarter of small forwards in both rebounds and blocks. In a related story, he played a lot of small-ball 4 and at 6-foot-9 may continue doing so going forward.

    However, he regressed in other areas. Gay is guilty of dribble blindness, and while he's improved from a few years ago, he still ranked among the bottom 10 small forwards in pure point rating. Defensively, he's had a hard time converting elite athleticism into decent results. His length nets him a lot of blocks and steals, but the Grizzlies gave up 6.0 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the floor.
    What is his take on Derrick Williams?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #130
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What is his take on Derrick Williams?
    Scouting Report:
    * Backup material

  11. #131
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Scouting report
    + Smooth, long wing with high-arcing jump shot. Can shoot over the top of a defense.
    + Outstanding transition finisher. Shies from contact and doesn't draw fouls.
    + Doesn't see the floor once he starts dribbling. Underachieves defensively.

    Analysis
    Gay has All-Star talent, but his jump shot let him down last season and he hasn't picked up his game in other areas. For starters, there's the jumper. Gay's stroke looks wonderful, but it doesn't go in as often as you think. Last season he made only 33.8 percent of his long 2s, and his 31.2 percent mark on 3s dropped his career mark to just 34.7 percent. He can get his shot off against anyone, and there's value in that, but there's not a lot of evidence that he's an above-average shooter.

    What does have value is when he takes shots near the basket. Gay shot 64 percent at the rim and had a high foul rate for a jump shooter; in particular, if he gets a step going right, he can throw down some vicious dunks. He also ranked in the top quarter of small forwards in both rebounds and blocks. In a related story, he played a lot of small-ball 4 and at 6-foot-9 may continue doing so going forward.

    However, he regressed in other areas. Gay is guilty of dribble blindness, and while he's improved from a few years ago, he still ranked among the bottom 10 small forwards in pure point rating. Defensively, he's had a hard time converting elite athleticism into decent results. His length nets him a lot of blocks and steals, but the Grizzlies gave up 6.0 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the floor.
    Do you think it's a coincidence that shortly after John Hollinger (the NBA's foremost expert on player efficiency and advanced metrics) was hired by the Grizzlies front office that they began trying to dump Rudy Gay to seemingly anyone in the league who would listen? That alone should be a huge red flag! Gay is an overrated player and a vastly overpaid one. Despite having all of the physical tools to be a great defensive player, he has never shown the ability to do so. Expecting him to magically become inspired on the defensive end 7 years into his career (for a non-playoff team no less!) is as crazy as expecting Bargnani to do it. If he can't give 100% for one of the handful of teams that have a shot at a title this season, I don't expect him to do it for a lottery team.

    Why so many Raptors fans are willing to take him off the Grizzlies hands is beyond me, especially when it's at the expense of young prospects, future draft picks, salary cap flexibility, or in Derozan's case - a similarly productive player this season who's much younger AND cheaper.

    He is a TERRIBLE contract. Absolutely terrible. Paying max money for non all-star players is practically chapter one in the "How to get stuck in the NBA's no man's land" handbook. And wasn't the consensus from Colangelo (and plenty of posters on this board) that maxing out Bosh would have been a bad idea? Now we want to spend multiple assets just to have the right to give more money to a lesser player? Good grief!
    Last edited by Fully; Fri Jan 11th, 2013 at 09:20 AM.

  12. #132
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/derrick_williams/

    His last 3 games have been great under limited minutes. His size does worry me though, because he looks too slow to guard the 3 and too small for the 4.

  13. #133
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    Fully, strong counter point


    My main objection is this.


    AA is playing solid D for us at SF, advanced stats are showing him to be THE KEY factor in our sudden rise. Cost negligible.

    Davis has been a consistant producer for very little money. Cost Negligible. Is he going to be an allstar most likely, no, is he worth his contract, roster spot, HELL YES.


    The above production to our team is coming at minimal cost.


    I don't know how wise it is to pack that 16 Million into SF when we are seeing excelent production at reduced cost. I would go Centre shopping, maybe a SG swap. I think those areas can improve the team substantially.

    I would part with DD more readily than AA, only because I know DD's price is high right now, and I know that I can replace the production reletively easily, with Weems type of player, or a defensive specialist that is less offensivly capable and hence improves the roster that way.


    For me, the emergence of AA is complicating this trade and I have to give Alen the benefit of the doubt, because he has played his heart out.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Thu Jan 10th, 2013 at 06:28 PM.

  14. #134
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What is his take on Derrick Williams?

    Scouting report
    + Versatile combo forward with inside-outside game. Likes to go left.
    + Tweener who's heavy for a 3 but short for a 4. Not a great defender. Draws fouls.
    + Had a rep as a pick-and-pop player but shot very poorly. Doesn't block shots.

    Analysis
    If Williams had made jumpers at anywhere near the rate people expected, he would have challenged for rookie of the year. Instead he shot a bunch of bricks and ended up on the fringes of Minnesota's rotation.

    Williams came heralded as a pick-and-pop weapon, but he couldn't have been more disappointing on this front; Williams shot 26.8 percent on 3s and 28.7 percent on long 2s. That's Rajon Rondo territory. He proved a good finisher on his forays to the basket and could capitalize more on that if his jumper proved more threatening. Even with last season's disaster, he had one of the better free throw rates at his position.

    Williams also needs to work on his dribble blindness, as he ranked 65th among power forwards in both assist ratio and pure point rating -- he actually assisted less often than Michael Beasley. I'd say his dreams of playing the wing are toast with ballhandling numbers like that, but he's lost weight in an apparent attempt to play more 3.

    Williams had below-average rebounding numbers for a power forward, but for a rookie, his defensive stats weren't terrible. He'll never star at that end since he's in between positions, but he defends competently enough that he could start if he ever got his jumper to fall.

  15. #135
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Scouting report
    + Versatile combo forward with inside-outside game. Likes to go left.
    + Tweener who's heavy for a 3 but short for a 4. Not a great defender. Draws fouls.
    + Had a rep as a pick-and-pop player but shot very poorly. Doesn't block shots.

    Analysis
    If Williams had made jumpers at anywhere near the rate people expected, he would have challenged for rookie of the year. Instead he shot a bunch of bricks and ended up on the fringes of Minnesota's rotation.

    Williams came heralded as a pick-and-pop weapon, but he couldn't have been more disappointing on this front; Williams shot 26.8 percent on 3s and 28.7 percent on long 2s. That's Rajon Rondo territory. He proved a good finisher on his forays to the basket and could capitalize more on that if his jumper proved more threatening. Even with last season's disaster, he had one of the better free throw rates at his position.

    Williams also needs to work on his dribble blindness, as he ranked 65th among power forwards in both assist ratio and pure point rating -- he actually assisted less often than Michael Beasley. I'd say his dreams of playing the wing are toast with ballhandling numbers like that, but he's lost weight in an apparent attempt to play more 3.

    Williams had below-average rebounding numbers for a power forward, but for a rookie, his defensive stats weren't terrible. He'll never star at that end since he's in between positions, but he defends competently enough that he could start if he ever got his jumper to fall.
    Thanks.
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #136
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Alright, same deal as before. Near impossible, 5-team trade, 13 players making it tied for largest in history.... so it is not going to happen - lets be clear on that to start.

    With that said, people (me too!) want Millsap and Gay. Personally, I'm greedy, I want Pekovic too. Here goes but remember LA has to be there and they are getting Bargnani/Calderon while Minnesota is getting Gasol/Jamison.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=abzgucz

    Jazz: DeRozan, Wroten
    Lakers: Bargnani, Calderon
    Wolves: Gasol, Jamison
    Grizzlies: Williams, Barea, Davis
    Raptors: Gay, Millsap, Pekovic


    Lowry
    Ross/Fields
    Gay/Anderson
    Millsap/Amir
    Pekovic/JV


    F*ck yeah.... lol. PG is weak but MLE in offseason to worry about that or maybe sign and trade Pekovic for draft rights to Trey Burke - haha, we are dreaming right?


    Bargnani, Calderon, DeRozan, Davis, 2nd round picks

    for

    Gay, Millsap, Pekovic


    would you?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #137
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Alright, same deal as before. Near impossible, 5-team trade, 13 players making it tied for largest in history.... so it is not going to happen - lets be clear on that to start.

    With that said, people (me too!) want Millsap and Gay. Personally, I'm greedy, I want Pekovic too. Here goes but remember LA has to be there and they are getting Bargnani/Calderon while Minnesota is getting Gasol/Jamison.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=abzgucz

    Jazz: DeRozan, Wroten
    Lakers: Bargnani, Calderon
    Wolves: Gasol, Jamison
    Grizzlies: Williams, Barea, Davis
    Raptors: Gay, Millsap, Pekovic


    Lowry
    Ross/Fields
    Gay/Anderson
    Millsap/Amir
    Pekovic/JV


    F*ck yeah.... lol. PG is weak but MLE in offseason to worry about that or maybe sign and trade Pekovic for draft rights to Trey Burke - haha, we are dreaming right?


    Bargnani, Calderon, DeRozan, Davis, 2nd round picks

    for

    Gay, Millsap, Pekovic


    would you?
    I guess so. But if we are just making up completely unrealistic trades, you can probably do even better.

  18. #138
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Scouting report
    + Smooth, long wing with high-arcing jump shot. Can shoot over the top of a defense.
    + Outstanding transition finisher. Shies from contact and doesn't draw fouls.
    + Doesn't see the floor once he starts dribbling. Underachieves defensively.

    Analysis
    Gay has All-Star talent, but his jump shot let him down last season and he hasn't picked up his game in other areas. For starters, there's the jumper. Gay's stroke looks wonderful, but it doesn't go in as often as you think. Last season he made only 33.8 percent of his long 2s, and his 31.2 percent mark on 3s dropped his career mark to just 34.7 percent. He can get his shot off against anyone, and there's value in that, but there's not a lot of evidence that he's an above-average shooter.

    What does have value is when he takes shots near the basket. Gay shot 64 percent at the rim and had a high foul rate for a jump shooter; in particular, if he gets a step going right, he can throw down some vicious dunks. He also ranked in the top quarter of small forwards in both rebounds and blocks. In a related story, he played a lot of small-ball 4 and at 6-foot-9 may continue doing so going forward.

    However, he regressed in other areas. Gay is guilty of dribble blindness, and while he's improved from a few years ago, he still ranked among the bottom 10 small forwards in pure point rating. Defensively, he's had a hard time converting elite athleticism into decent results. His length nets him a lot of blocks and steals, but the Grizzlies gave up 6.0 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the floor.
    Well there it is then. This is not a $19M/yr player. This is Hedo, part II.

  19. #139
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Well there it is then. This is not a $19M/yr player. This is Hedo, part II.
    I think we can all agree that Gay isn't worth his contract. But I'm still of the belief that he's a big upgrade over any wing on our roster.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Scouting report
    + Smooth, long wing with high-arcing jump shot. Can shoot over the top of a defense.
    + Outstanding transition finisher. Shies from contact and doesn't draw fouls.
    + Doesn't see the floor once he starts dribbling. Underachieves defensively.

    Analysis
    Gay has All-Star talent, but his jump shot let him down last season and he hasn't picked up his game in other areas. For starters, there's the jumper. Gay's stroke looks wonderful, but it doesn't go in as often as you think. Last season he made only 33.8 percent of his long 2s, and his 31.2 percent mark on 3s dropped his career mark to just 34.7 percent. He can get his shot off against anyone, and there's value in that, but there's not a lot of evidence that he's an above-average shooter.

    What does have value is when he takes shots near the basket. Gay shot 64 percent at the rim and had a high foul rate for a jump shooter; in particular, if he gets a step going right, he can throw down some vicious dunks. He also ranked in the top quarter of small forwards in both rebounds and blocks. In a related story, he played a lot of small-ball 4 and at 6-foot-9 may continue doing so going forward.

    However, he regressed in other areas. Gay is guilty of dribble blindness, and while he's improved from a few years ago, he still ranked among the bottom 10 small forwards in pure point rating. Defensively, he's had a hard time converting elite athleticism into decent results. His length nets him a lot of blocks and steals, but the Grizzlies gave up 6.0 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the floor.
    I wonder what Hollinger's scouting report on DeMar was like last season and what it's like now. Don't see why a change in scenery and coaching can't have a positive impact on an already good player. Is he worth his contract no, but will he be the best player on the team from day one, yes.

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