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Thread: Chisholm sums up reality of any Rudy Gay deal

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    Dont like this deal if it includes Ed Davis. I hated everything about Ed's game last year. This year he looks like a completely different player. I think he has even improved from his first start till now.

    I don't think Gay is that great either. If we were trading for an actual perennial all star I could see the trade including davis, but this guy is B-Tier at best and he is having a bad season with an absolutely gross contract that expires in 2 years when we are probably not going to be even contending for 3 years at a best case scenario. AKA this guy will bail. I think raptor fans are just in love with this guy because he always daggers us at the end of games.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Lots of talk of Rudy Gay the "healthy", however he hasn't been able to play a full season for 3 years. That is a flag for me.

    A playoff team needs 82 games + post season. Gay has not been able to deliver that for a while.



    I remember when Carter had that unintrested season. His value tumbled, all Babcock could get was scraps. Here was a player that was once mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan and Kobe, and next thing you know he is being traded for, fuck I dont even remember who the players were (jk, but you guys get the point).


    I' take Gay, but I don't want to bail Memphis out. Jose is having a fantastic season, hate to see him go, 10 million in cap and ED Davis a maturing big man (and we know those take time to develop), who happens to be turning heads around the league. Instinct can't be taught.


    Then you have AA who is playing out of this world and making me forget about SF as being a position that we need to address. I know that his subtraction is going to HURT this team. I also know that Davis's subtraction is going to hurt this team. Can Gay make up for these two? They are playing for very low money. We are filling a lot with AA and Davis for the bucks we are paying them. To move that out, and replace it with Gay at 16 million, seems like a very low margin for error move. One problem, injury, chemistry, loss of athleticism, and we are up the creek without a paddle.


    I want the asking price lowered or the deal sweetened.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Thu Jan 10th, 2013 at 03:06 AM.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    1) Ok, I don't even really know what that means exactly. You could say the same about Bargs, and most want him gone. You could say the same about Michael Beasley even...
    2) 26 is not that young for someone who hasn't expanded his game since his 2nd year, who isn't a great shooter, and who's only going to start getting less athletic.
    3) Ok, he wants out of Memphis, and it's not his fault they misvalued his contract, but why does that make it ok to take on an overvalued contract?
    4) Gay is to Memphis as Bargnani is to Toronto....Underachieving. Overpaid. Disinterested. One-dimensional. I don't know if there's a better reason to not trade for him.
    5) Ok, he has good size. Can't hate him for that. Maybe we should just re-sign Dominic McGuire and work really hard at teaching him to shoot a jumper. And Gay doesn't really use it to his advantage...again, much like Bargs.
    6) Can Casey get him to buy in ? Probably for at least 13 games....
    7) Lowry and Gay Best-ies....This is not an argument to make a move to attempt to improve a basketball team. Lowry is also friends with Anderson. Demar is pretty close now with everyone on the team, including Amir and Ed, if one were to be traded. Chemistry is not remotely an issue, and friendship off the court does not necessarily translate to success on the court.
    8) Flexibility isn't just capspace. The draft is where you get talented players, like JV, Demar and Ross. I see no reason to sacrifice not only capspace, but the possibility of improving through drafting, or using such picks as assets in trades to address real needs at the right time. Rudy Gay addresses zero needs (especially if Demar is included), unless you believe a starting SF has to be at least 6'8".
    9) and 10) I have one main concern: you assume not only Bargnani is gone, but that we will not be taking any money back, so he's traded for only expiring deals or just amnestied???? I'm really just asking. If not, wouldn't more need to be shed to give that kind of offer to Millsap? And in general, if Bargnani's contract value is totally gone somehow, and Demar gives you much the same if not more than Gay at less money, that provides much more flexibility.

    In the end I still don't see the merit of this deal in any way that would work for Memphis or really makes sense for us. I kept trying to think of a way I'd be willing to do it. And in theory there are pieces I'd give up. Obviously spare parts like LK, Gray, Acy, Lucas are all in play. Jose is in there too with his contract and value. Maybe Anderson too. I'd have a really hard time giving up Ed with his play and youth. Don't think Memphis would want Amir, even at decent value, if their motivations are mainly financial. Basically I'd be ok with getting Gay if we totally fleeced Memphis...like Jose, Kleiza and Anderson...I'd do that in a heartbeat.
    1) Gay comparisons to Bargnani and Beasley is ludicrous.
    2) Is 26 the new 36? He has a good 5 years left and his game is not solely dependent on athleticism.
    3) Why not? He fills a serious area of need and given the current state of the payroll, he is hardly crippling.
    4) You left out fan whipping post. Again, Gay to Bargnani comparisons are ridiculous.
    5) Now Gay to McGuire comparisons? Really?
    6) More Bargnani comparisons? Nothing similar about their situations except unreasonable fan expectations.
    7) Good point. Jack and Bosh also did nothing for Toronto.
    8) What lottery pick do the Raptors have to improve with? What pick, other than 2nd round picks, can Toronto include in a trade? Trading for Gay, given current place in standings, will likely add a draft pick 15+. Gay doesn't fill a need? We'll have to agree to disagree.... well on everything.
    9 and 10) Flexibility is hardly lost. Sign and trade still exists. Other trades still exist. The flexibility lost would be to sign a top free agent and given Toronto's free agency history, is that a bad thing? Trading for Gay would also keep the MLE in play. Adding a player like Gay might help bring a free agent.... might not either but I think chances are higher with.

    As I said, a 3rd or 4th team would need to be added as for the points you raised a straight MEM-TOR trade is not going to happen.

    However, if you add a 3rd or 4th team and you are able to get Gay for Calderon/ED/2nd round picks.... you do it without question. Even better if Bargnani is included in any deal (again, 3rd and 4th teams necessary). If you can get Gay with same combination but DD is also in there, that is not so simple a decision but I'd lean towards yes given Fields and Ross on the team. I don't include Ross in any deal for Gay.

    The bottomline is Gay is a borderline all-star having a rough shooting season. Given he has never shot less than 42% since his rookie year and he is just 26, I don't think this can be called a trend.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I think the biggest issue with trading for Gay is that its yet another band aid to fix a cut artery.

    This team needs to be rebuilt/restructered/re-everything in order to go anywhere. In isolation Gay likely makes the team better, but he's just one step closer to a first round losing playoff team.

    Chasing him likely means giving up a young asset (Ed), and cap space (Jose's expiring + Gay's contract) for the right to lose in the playoffs in the near future.

    I think Gay is a good basketball player. He may be an all-star one day, and if not he'll likely always be close to it. If he was on this team it would be an easy argument to make that he would become the best player.

    But this team needs to take the exact opposite route to this.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Slightly unrelated questions (maybe more rhetorical than real), but why do I keep reading about how poor Gay's defense supposedly is? Is the policy in the raptor media to just throw around the term defense? Especially after the years we have watched?

    And how is Gay and Demar a duplication? Its like saying Dwight Howard and Kendrick Perkins are duplication because they are both big men who can defend and rebound and who score near the bucket (ok an extreme example but the point remains). Gay is a threat to make the all-star team every year, Demar is a threat to make the bench on any team not run by Brian Colangelo.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Hey Matt, and in general, I don't think Gay and Bargnani's situations are that different, and that's mainly my point...And BTW, if you don't think just the talent level of Gay is comparable to guys like Bargs and Beasley, who do you think he is, LeBron James? Bargs and Beasley have the talent to be all-stars, albeit they lack other vital things, like giving a crap. Gay is obviously not as bad as either of them, but he's hardly a committed player. Gay is an overvalued player who's got lots of talent but hasn't fulfilled it. There is some thought that he's still young, but 26 is not young anymore for youngs. You say "is 26 36?"...It's not super old, but most wings who rely on athleticism and don't round out their game much start becoming pretty useless arond 30 or soonafter...Pietrus is only 30 and look at him. Even VC, who was a much better player than Gay is, started becoming a totally different and much less useful player around what, 31, 32? Gay being 26 mean you can only count on his prime years for the length of his contract and maybe 2-3 years after that. NBA careers are short.
    A lot of your points seem to value his potential, age and size while ignoring his actual ability and what he brings to the table. What does Gay add to our team other than a name?
    -He is not a great shooter...average to above average maybe.
    -He's an inefficient scorer who's worse at using his size (his better size) than Demar in the post...Gay takes a lot more bad contested jumpers
    -Average rebounder
    -Not much of a dribble drive game
    -Takes many nights off on D
    -Another ball stopper, which is even worse if we lost Jose as well
    -No leadership...Gasol, Randolph, Conley and Allen all much stronger leaders in Memphis

    All that can be yours for a young asset or two, possibly picks, and if you're willing to pay 18 million plus for 2 more years after this.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    This whole desire to get Gay smacks of "the grass is greener on the other side". Again Matt, a lot of my comparing to Bargs has to do with underachieving, and that Gay is just about as much a headache in Memphis as Bargs is here. I think Chisholm is right, and that it wouldn't take much or be long before fans find reasons to turn on Gay. Again, Gay is not nearly the player VC was in his prime, and he's much more indifferent. He'll frustrate the hell out of people and likely isn't good enough to be worth it.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I've never been a huge Rudy Gay fan, but I would support this trade if going outbound were Jose and Ed. It shores up the SF position, and all we would have to give up are two players that can be replaced with quality players from within (Lowry/Amir). It gives us a guy whom can close games out and whom has the tools to defend well under the right coach (Casey).

    Also, and I think it's an important point, having Gay on the roster means amnestying AB makes much more sense. I've personally felt that AB should be traded instead of amnestied because Toronto has such a difficult time attracting talent, so what's the point of having the extra $$ if you can't buy anything with it? However, with a young semi-stud like Gay on the roster we become a much more attractive team and you may actually get some quality free agents looking our way, imo.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If Ross is not involved, I go after Rudy. Reasons:

    1) The talent is there.
    2) Just 26 years old. Get McKechnie devising plan for his shoulder, return to 2010-11 form.
    3) It has been reported he wants out of MEM for a long time. Only signed extension because, well, would you turn down $80M?
    4) Change of scenery should do him good (Bargnani is to Toronto as Rudy is to Memphis).
    5) 6'8" SF with 7'2" wingspan.
    6) Can Casey get him to buy in? I think so.
    7) Lowry and Gay best-ies.
    8) Cap space and flexibility has done what for Toronto in last 3 years? Contract be damned.
    9) If DeRozan was included in trade, they have enough cap space to go after and talent to entice a FA PF like Paul Millsap this summer.
    10) If DD is not included and assuming ED is, sending out another $2.5M in the trade off next year (Gray?), amnestying Kleiza, and a bump in the salary cap as expected should lead to enough cap space to make a run at a FA PF like Paul Millsap.

    *Both 9 and 10 assume Bargnani is gone.


    In a nutshell if a combination of Calderon/ED/possibly DD/2nd round picks gets you Gay, you do it (obviously a 3rd or 4th team is going to need to be brought in).
    I agree 100%. Davis is not a guy who prevents you from landing the best SF the franchise will ever see.

    From Kapono, to Moon, to Graham, to Turkoglu, to Wright, to Kleiza, to Fields, to Pietrus....our small forwards have been horrendous for an eternity. We finally have the opportunity to address the issue for years to come, and we're balking because of Ed Davis? I don't get it...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    It will be an issue if we dont sign someone immediately to fill Ed Davis's spot. Im all for this deal if it happens. Raptors are a much better team with traditional big men down low we haven't had post production for years now. So if Davis moves we land Gay sign someone to fill that Gap I really dont want Casey having to play Gray/Acy and having only Amir as our only legit 4...

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Default NO WAY - No RUDY GAY

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This whole desire to get Gay smacks of "the grass is greener on the other side". Again Matt, a lot of my comparing to Bargs has to do with underachieving, and that Gay is just about as much a headache in Memphis as Bargs is here. I think Chisholm is right, and that it wouldn't take much or be long before fans find reasons to turn on Gay. Again, Gay is not nearly the player VC was in his prime, and he's much more indifferent. He'll frustrate the hell out of people and likely isn't good enough to be worth it.
    +1

    Finally someone with some common sense! If this were a possibility 2 years ago i probably would've said yes. NOW?? No way!!!!

    I think many of the posters here are crazy - yearly losing has cost you to lose your mind! I would not touch Rudy Gay right now..... Let Memphis pay the luxury tax for all i care!

    Some of you posters (Matt52 included) are saying to possibly give up Demar + a pick + Calderon and/or Davis for Gay??? LMFAO --- You guys are kidding right???

    We do not need to make this trade.... this is a lateral move at best. Please use Calderon, Derozan, Davis + pick for an ALL-STAR. Why didnt we try to get Harden with this package?????

    Whats the similarity between Bargs and Gay some ask?? They're both OVERVALUED by their franchises!! They both average around the same amount of ppg when healthy. I would only consider swapping Gay and Bargs + Calderon's expiring + Second rounder *and to be honest I dont really see the fit with Gay and Demar, but i'd be willing to try it out*

    If Memphis can ask this much for a guy who makes as much or more than Lebron/Wade/Bosh (without the all-star status and reliability).......I think we should be able to get rid of Andrea for something decent. The only players i would be willing to give up at some discount would be Andrea and Kleiza. That is all.

    P.s. I would really be willing to take a flyer on Derrick Williams + pick (anyone) for Bargnani --- Make it happen BC

  12. #32
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    The one thing to remember, is that any Rudy Gay trade shouldn't be considered in a vacuum. I could actually see the Raptors making several trades heading into the deadline, which could significantly reshape this team for next season and beyond.

    I still think Valanciunas and possibly Ross are the closest thing this team has to 'untouchable' players.

    Calderon
    - I love him, but he's a 31 year old on an expiring contract. It would be a crazy waste of an asset NOT to trade him. Toronto could even look to re-sign him in the offseason.

    Anderson
    - He's been playing great, but he's a 30 year old journeyman on rebuilding team that's stacked with young wing players. Similar to Calderon, it would be a crazy waste of an asset NOT to trade him at the peak of his value, considering that he's not in the team's long-term plans.
    - Lucas is another veteran bench scorer who could be dealt for a 2nd round pick at the deadline.

    Bargnani/Davis/Amir
    - We've said for nearly 2 years that one of them needs to go.
    - Although I've supported Bargnani in the past, I have never been opposed to trading him either.
    - If Davis were included in a deal for Gay, I don't think that necessarily means that Bargnani is here to stay; he could be dealt in another trade at the deadline or in the offseason.
    - I could easily envision a free agent signed to be the starting PF next season, with Amir as the only holdover at backup PF.

    DeRozan
    - He has definitely improved, but I still don't think he's ever going to be a true #1 scorer (I think he'll eventually face the same issues that Bargnani did, being forced into being the face/cornerstone/#1 guy of the franchise).
    - I wouldn't mind including him in a deal for Gay, as I think Gay & Ross would be a good wing tandem in the long-term and fit together better than Gay & DeRozan.
    - It would be a tough loss, but the acquisition of Gay and any subsequent trades (ie: Bargnani) would easily offset the loss.

  13. #33
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    Response to Matt52....

    1) The talent is there.
    > The offensive efficiency is not. The defense is non-existent

    2) Just 26 years old. Get McKechnie devising plan for his shoulder, return to 2010-11 form.
    > Acquiring an injured player? This is a positive? Pass

    3) It has been reported he wants out of MEM for a long time. Only signed extension because, well, would you turn down $80M?
    > Why bring in a confirmed malcontent? Pass.

    4) Change of scenery should do him good (Bargnani is to Toronto as Rudy is to Memphis).
    > See above

    5) 6'8" SF with 7'2" wingspan.
    > So is Elton Brand, Jared Sullinger and Lonny Baxter.

    6) Can Casey get him to buy in? I think so.
    > Confirmed coachability issues? Pass.

    7) Lowry and Gay best-ies.
    > So were Hedo and Rasho.

    8) Cap space and flexibility has done what for Toronto in last 3 years? Contract be damned.
    > Ok, so let's double-down on stupidity.

    9) If DeRozan was included in trade, they have enough cap space to go after and talent to entice a FA PF like Paul Millsap this summer.
    > Oh, I see. We've got to move a developing asset like Demar, to offset a massive financial blunder.

    10) If DD is not included and assuming ED is, sending out another $2.5M in the trade off next year (Gray?), amnestying Kleiza, and a bump in the salary cap as expected should lead to enough cap space to make a run at a FA PF like Paul Millsap.
    > So why make a financial blunder in the first place that puts you into cap scramble mode. Although it sounds like classic BryCo modus operandi.

    *Both 9 and 10 assume Bargnani is gone.


    In a nutshell if a combination of Calderon/ED/possibly DD/2nd round picks gets you Gay, you do it (obviously a 3rd or 4th team is going to need to be brought in).
    Last edited by golden; Thu Jan 10th, 2013 at 11:32 AM.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Calderon + Davis + 2nd round pick for Gay

    All day everyday.

    Flexibility is not killed, merely altered.

    People need to take off the homer blinders.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #35
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Calderon + Davis + 2nd round pick for Gay

    All day everyday.

    Flexibility is not killed, merely altered.

    People need to take off the homer blinders.
    If you consider a Kleiza amnesty as part of the deal (purely for financial consideration), as is being rumored on ESPN today, then the salary impact is negligable next season for the Raptors.

    Calderon ($10.5) + Davis ($2.2) + Kleiza ($4.6) = $17.3M

    Gay ($16.5) = $16.5M
    - would become $17.2M is Selby were to be included


    My bigger question is why Memphis would be interested in Davis (or Bargnani), considering they have Randolph, Speights and Arthur at PF already.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Calderon + Davis + 2nd round pick for Gay

    All day everyday.

    Flexibility is not killed, merely altered.

    People need to take off the homer blinders.
    +1. The only team that says no to this is Memphis

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If you consider a Kleiza amnesty as part of the deal (purely for financial consideration), as is being rumored on ESPN today, then the salary impact is negligable next season for the Raptors.

    Calderon ($10.5) + Davis ($2.2) + Kleiza ($4.6) = $17.3M

    Gay ($16.5) = $16.5M
    - would become $17.2M is Selby were to be included


    My bigger question is why Memphis would be interested in Davis (or Bargnani), considering they have Randolph, Speights and Arthur at PF already.
    As I mentioned on the main page yesterday, a Rudy Gay deal involving Calderon/Davis/parts would be highway robbery in our favour. Not sure why Memphis would consider it.

    But I still don't understand why Raps fan would decline it....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If you consider a Kleiza amnesty as part of the deal (purely for financial consideration), as is being rumored on ESPN today, then the salary impact is negligable next season for the Raptors.

    Calderon ($10.5) + Davis ($2.2) + Kleiza ($4.6) = $17.3M

    Gay ($16.5) = $16.5M
    - would become $17.2M is Selby were to be included


    My bigger question is why Memphis would be interested in Davis (or Bargnani), considering they have Randolph, Speights and Arthur at PF already.
    After January 15th Speights and Arthur are eligible to be traded. I think Davis is better than either now. ED could be looked at as long term starter as Z-Bo will be 32 to start next season.

    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    +1. The only team that says no to this is Memphis
    Exactly. Not going to get done with what Toronto is offering unless more teams involved.

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    As I mentioned on the main page yesterday, a Rudy Gay deal involving Calderon/Davis/parts would be highway robbery in our favour. Not sure why Memphis would consider it.

    But I still don't understand why Raps fan would decline it....
    Me neither.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Calderon + Davis + 2nd round pick for Gay

    All day everyday.

    Flexibility is not killed, merely altered.

    People need to take off the homer blinders.
    Yet you clearly write this with homer blinders.....and your lower posts confirm it. No way Memphis does a deal that's just Jose, Davis and 2nd rd pick(s) for Gay. And on the point of other teams getting involved...that just makes it more likely we'd have to give up prize assets like Ross and JV, and Demar (depending on your opinion). Basicaly with Jose's contract, the hope is that Ed Davis can land us Rudy Gay...that's not happening. I still think any deal, 2 team, 3 team or 4 team, ends up costing us things I'd rather not part with.

    So yeah, I'd maybe do this version of the deal...but it's about as likely in my mind as trading Jose and Ed for LeBron.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:47 PM.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If you consider a Kleiza amnesty as part of the deal (purely for financial consideration), as is being rumored on ESPN today, then the salary impact is negligable next season for the Raptors.

    Calderon ($10.5) + Davis ($2.2) + Kleiza ($4.6) = $17.3M

    Gay ($16.5) = $16.5M
    - would become $17.2M is Selby were to be included


    My bigger question is why Memphis would be interested in Davis (or Bargnani), considering they have Randolph, Speights and Arthur at PF already.
    It doesn't. Memphis wouldn't basically trade Rudy Gay for Jose and Ed. If these rumors are at all true, then clearly this is either Toronto's shitty offer, or details are left out like Toronto would have to give up 2 future 1st rd picks or something.

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