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Thread: The Raptors 2nd Unit & The Case For Bargnani As A 6th Man

  1. #21
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    why is this thread still going I thought I quashed it in post 12

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    He's been treated unfairly? He has led the most privileged career of any Toronto Raptor that has ever worn the uniform. Always given the benifit of the doubt, payed before he produced, placed into an unearned starting/high usage/franchise player role, coachs removed to suit him, allowed to underperform without consequence or accountability, and player after player sought after to fit with him

    Maybe bargnani finds a better role off the bench, maybe he doesn't and becomes even less effective. But there are a few reasons this team must trade him.

    First his style of play no longer fits what this team is doing. Thats just simple. I don't care where Bargnani plays or what his role is, his defense is and rebounding will constantly handcuff this team.

    Secondly, no matter what he is doing, he is getting paid 10+ mil a year. To cut down his usage or minutes simply makes that payment more difficult to deal with.

    Finaly he'll eat into minutes that are needed, deserved and earned for Val, Ed and Amir.

    Bargnani becoming the hero 6th man like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford is nothing but another hope based theory based on his 'potential'.
    This team needs to get past this idea that he is something other than he is, a situational role player. Now if there are no other options (ie. no trades) other than to use Bargnani off the bench then I understand. But even then he should just be sitting on the end of the bench, maybe playing between 0-10 minutes a game (only as necessary ala Gray) until they amnesty him in July.

    Anything other than removing him from this team is nothing more than lesser repetition of the past and a continual waste of resources.
    +1

    However, because Bargnani no longer fits in Toronto, does not mean he does not fit somewhere else in the league. Everyone in the NBA has talent - there is too much competition for someone without talent to get in. However, except for the best of the best, situation can be just as important as talent. The situation needs to change in Toronto - it is not only in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani, it is in Bargnani's best interests as well.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie Jon_Wade's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Bargnani has to be considered a step up on the 26 min. Aaron Gray and Quincy Acy gave us last night. Doesn't he? lol
    Acy gave us 6 rebounds and 2 blocks, that's more than Bargnani in over 30 minutes..
    Whoever told you skies the limit is looking dumb because I'm 22 and i'm moonwalking on the sun.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    My case is for him to go away forever.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  5. #25
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    He's been treated unfairly? He has led the most privileged career of any Toronto Raptor that has ever worn the uniform. Always given the benifit of the doubt, payed before he produced, placed into an unearned starting/high usage/franchise player role, coachs removed to suit him, allowed to underperform without consequence or accountability, and player after player sought after to fit with him

    Maybe bargnani finds a better role off the bench, maybe he doesn't and becomes even less effective. But there are a few reasons this team must trade him.

    First his style of play no longer fits what this team is doing. Thats just simple. I don't care where Bargnani plays or what his role is, his defense is and rebounding will constantly handcuff this team.

    Secondly, no matter what he is doing, he is getting paid 10+ mil a year. To cut down his usage or minutes simply makes that payment more difficult to deal with.

    Finaly he'll eat into minutes that are needed, deserved and earned for Val, Ed and Amir.

    Bargnani becoming the hero 6th man like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford is nothing but another hope based theory based on his 'potential'. This team needs to get past this idea that he is something other than he is, a situational role player. Now if there are no other options (ie. no trades) other than to use Bargnani off the bench then I understand. But even then he should just be sitting on the end of the bench, maybe playing between 0-10 minutes a game (only as necessary ala Gray) until they amnesty him in July.

    Anything other than removing him from this team is nothing more than lesser repetition of the past and a continual waste of resources.
    And very BIG +1 to you on everything said.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I generally agree with everything you said, except the unfair treatment part. Toronto with BC managing has gone out of its way to try and accommodate Andrea to make him succeed and hopefully win with him. Nothing about that is unfair for Andrea. Maybe expectations were not realistic, or at least, were not re-adjusted in a realistic way after his first 2-3 seasons, but that is still not unfair.

    It is not unfair to treat a player like a franchise player. To give him the keys to the offense, and to fire 2 coaches before you try trading him away.
    It is not unfair to see a guy with his physical talents and bball skills, and expect him to be a great PF. Andrea has the talent and body to be a top 5 PF in this league, hands down. It is not unfair to expect someone to fulfill their talent.
    Good point and I agree with you. I guess I was trying to say that a big part of the reason he doesn't fit and gets a lot of heat from fans is the way he's been treated by the organisation, which he doesn't have a lot of impact on. I'm sure he never walked into BryCo's office and said, "If you don't fire Sam Mitchell, I won't develop as a player."

    That said, Barg's annoys the crap out of me because I just don't see the heart or hustle that I expect. Another issue with bargs coming in off the bench is that great six men are seen as spark plugs for their team (you can throw barbosa in that category as well) but you'd be hard pressed to fit the phrase "bargnani is," with "an energy player" in the same sentence without the word "not" .

    But yes, Barg's will probably give us more than either Gray or Acy. But if that is all we expect of him, that 11 mill/season is a pretty heavy weight.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    why is this thread still going I thought I quashed it in post 12
    As we all should have learned by now, Bargnani does not go away that easily.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Bargnani has to be considered a step up on the 26 min. Aaron Gray and Quincy Acy gave us last night. Doesn't he? lol
    Can't argue with this, even thought Acy is a better and more consistent defender. Considering you would pencil 26 min of Grey and Acy in for 4-8 points in that time, most nights.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    +1

    However, because Bargnani no longer fits in Toronto, does not mean he does not fit somewhere else in the league. Everyone in the NBA has talent - there is too much competition for someone without talent to get in. However, except for the best of the best, situation can be just as important as talent. The situation needs to change in Toronto - it is not only in the Raptors best interests to trade Bargnani, it is in Bargnani's best interests as well.
    ++1

    AB needs to be in a situation where he doesn't have to worry about defence. So he needs a team with a good defensive center, a good defensive SF, a team that is mostly good at running back on D and that needs an offensive lift.

  10. #30
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Must admit that I would like to see this tried. Not enough that I would want the Raps to turn down any trade offer that could move AB for a reasonable return, but it would be an intriguing experiment. I don't know how well AB would accept the change. Maybe very well.
    Who cares what Bargnani will accept at this point. Bring him off the bench for scoring on the second unit. If he floats on d, takes selfish shots, out of the offense, or doesn't at least box out, he should sit. Either he can fill that role, or he doesn't have a role on this team. All that being said, I don't see him fitting with the group. He seems like a bit of a weirdo, and I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't very well liked. This run the team is on has got to be hard on his Italian sized ego.

  11. #31
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    what u forgot to mention is bargs grabs as many rebounds as Jason terry & his low post defence is no better than Jamal Crawford LOL
    Actually a few times, when he's wanted to, he's played not bad post d. Moves his feet, uses his length. He's a coward physically which means a lot of the time he avoids contact (like with rebounding), but when he actually wants to he can. Of course his perimeter d , rotation is putrid

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Whether we like it or not this scenario of bargnani coming off the bench is extremely probable, I for one hope that it is successful as this will help the team and maximize his trade value should we go that route. Can't wait for the raptors to get healthy!
    "Defense wins championships."

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    He's been treated unfairly? He has led the most privileged career of any Toronto Raptor that has ever worn the uniform. Always given the benifit of the doubt ......
    I can agree with this statement - albeit, not necessarily the term most priviledged. And although you don't focus on it, I believe that priviledged beginning was a mistake on the organization. While we can't guarantee a different result had Andrea been "developed" like other rookies are (ie. earn their keep), I do believe the different mindset now (with Casey), could change things.

    That being said, I have to disagree when people dismiss last season (the first with Casey) as a bad season by Bargnani. Taking into account the time needed (after an injury), and the fact that it was a recurring event, I'd say AB had a decent season. For the most part, Bargnani was more then a 13 game anomaly - or AB13.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    First his style of play no longer fits what this team is doing. Thats just simple.
    I can agree that our focus has been too much on Bargnani, and not enough on team play, but that's not Andrea's fault. What Casey is doing now - focusing on team play - is what should continue when AB returns.

    As to his style of play, Raptors - with the insertion of Jose - have slowed down the pace of their games. When Lowry was starting, that pace did not gel with the talent on this team. Including Andrea.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Bargnani becoming the hero 6th man like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford is nothing but another hope based theory based on his 'potential'.
    Until one tries, one can not dismiss how a "potential" 6th man plays out. In fact, it might relieve some pressure off AB from being that #1 pick that Rap fans are so fixated on.

    Although I'm pretty much resigned to the belief that Andrea will be run out of Toronto (sooner, rather then later), I question what Raps will have to deal with, in terms of players coming back.

    As well, I continue to believe that Toronto is not a destination of choice for free agents. No F/A agent signing (to Toronto) has proven different. NONE. As such I think the odds of Casey bringing out Bargnani's "potential" as a good contributor to this team - even as a 6th man - are greater then the chances of landing a Star talent in the Free Agent market.

    As to his salary, wtf do we care about that. Rogers has deep pockets (Hopefully Bell agrees). Plus, having Cap room has done us no good. Fact is, teams with high payrolls, have an easier time exchanging players.

    .

    As I have said in a number of other posts, this team is winning because of changes made.

    1) Jose is starting
    2) Lowry is passing better - coming off the Bench
    3) Bench - 2nd in the League (over this stretch)
    4) Team defense has picked up - simply because players have done it as a TEAM. Still, Raps are not as good as last season - even when AB was playing.
    5) During the Jose stretch, Raptors have been No. 1 in Pts out of the paint

    That latter point brings me to one of the weaknesses with this team - albeit injuries have played a strong part - is the play of our Front Court. Toronto is ranked 23rd in Points in the Paint differential.

    http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball.../4/diffeff/6-1

    Ed Davis & Amir may be holding their own, but they are not the priority reasons why this new season is excelling. The above 5 reasons are why Raptors have improved. In the end, Amir is a Bench player, as is Ed. For Davis, he hasn't begun to get true Opponent focus. That will be the real test.

    Should Raptors trade Bargnani, they will need to pick up another PF to START. One who can handle real Bigs - as Davis is too small for that chore.

    .

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Rookie Profster's Avatar
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    My opinion is nail him to the bench. Give him a few minutes and if he misses a defensive assignment, pull his ass off the court. He will soon learn that he has to play with the eye of the tiger if he wants to play for the Raptors. We know he can score but with his length, he should be dominating the boards. I would not play him if he does not get 8 boards in 15 minutes of playing time. There is no reason he can't. Simple..... box out and tear it down. Outlet the ball and get your ass down the floor. Hit the basket and get back on defense and repeat.

  15. #35
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Whether we like it or not this scenario of bargnani coming off the bench is extremely probable, I for one hope that it is successful as this will help the team and maximize his trade value should we go that route.
    I agree with this. He'll be able to go up against lesser players, have softer minutes and as 6th man the focus will be less about what he can't do, and more about what he can: scoring. He'll either add something to the team, or be in an ideal spot for us to showcase him for a trade. I don't think he should just be handed 6th man minutes, he should come off the bench and earn his minutes. No more coddling.

  16. #36
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    ++1

    AB needs to be in a situation where he doesn't have to worry about defence. So he needs a team with a good defensive center, a good defensive SF, a team that is mostly good at running back on D and that needs an offensive lift.
    LMAO - Are you serious??? Why would anyone want a player who doesn't at least try to play defence?

    Why should Andrea continue to get coddled? Don't you think his teammates would resent this special guy? The guy isn't even efficient!

    He should be treated the same as everyone else....he needs to at least try to play defence and rebound or sit and watch Acy take his minutes.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Quincy Acy will be in the D-League within 2-4 weeks, you can bank on it. He is a 6'7 225lb PF, that can't shoot a jump shot, and is prone to fouling too much, No thanks.
    Would rather have a 6'7" PF with no jump shot than a 7' PF that can't rebound...or make jump shots...or play team D...or pass...or help in any capacity whatsoever.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter T.Dot's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    Would rather have a 6'7" PF with no jump shot than a 7' PF that can't rebound...or make jump shots...or play team D...or pass...or help in any capacity whatsoever.
    Well thats a rather dumb statement to make. He can do all those things...but not in the way we or the team want him to. You guys are talking out of your asses like Andrea can't play. The thing is some of you fans always assume but you never know. He will be a great 6th man whether you like it or not.

  19. #39
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    Quote T.Dot wrote: View Post
    Well thats a rather dumb statement to make. He can do all those things...but not in the way we or the team want him to. You guys are talking out of your asses like Andrea can't play. The thing is some of you fans always assume but you never know. He will be a great 6th man whether you like it or not.
    I hope so! It would add more trade value to him.

  20. #40
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    Lets just get things straight Andrea struggled at the start of the season career lows in fact, he usually shoots a lot better than that easily racking up double figures in a short time frame. Bargnani is a shooter and all shooters can go through a streak of struggling with their shot and the best way to come out of it is keep shooting, problem is Bargnani especially this year takes way too many 3s.Bargnani is at his best when he takes the short range shots its automatic because honestly no player can guard that.

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