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Thread: The Raptors 2nd Unit & The Case For Bargnani As A 6th Man

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Bargnani has to be considered a step up on the 26 min. Aaron Gray and Quincy Acy gave us last night. Doesn't he? lol
    With a healthy Jonas, Amir and Davis, a 4th big man is much less of a priority. IMO, our big man rotation should only be 3 deep anyway.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Even as a 6th man, Bargnani's inability to rebound, rotate, and communicate on defense would hurt this team. He'd just hurt us less than he did as a starter. This does not qualify as a "solution".
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #43
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    I think people need to distinguish between short term and long term objectives. In the short term, it is likely that the Raptors would probably perform best with a big rotation of Johnson, Davis and Bargnani, with JV getting rookie minutes in rookie situations. Objectively, a Bargnani/Johnson pairing is probably the second best big duo available to the Raptors right now.

    I am a strong supporter of JV, and strongly endorse accelerating his development. But realistically, a rookie C is going to take his lumps and create challenges for his big partner. JV is a "-" player partnered with any of the other bigs.

    Whichever combination keeps Gray off the floor seems like an improvement to me.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I would not be stunned if Bargnani came back as a starter. The pattern for the past 5 years has been to do whatever it takes to make him happy. However if he is coming off the bench is Bargnani going to be able to adjust? Most 6th men can get hot quickly. Guys like Crawford and Terry don't need a lot of time to get warm. Harden and Ginobili don't just shoot the ball but can warm up by getting to the rim themselves or be playmakers for others on their team.

    Bargnani might surprise us, but if he remains cold off the bench then the coach may try and put him in the starting line up again so that he gets warmer quicker which then negates the whole idea of Bargnani as a 6th man.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Even as a 6th man, Bargnani's inability to rebound, rotate, and communicate on defense would hurt this team. He'd just hurt us less than he did as a starter. This does not qualify as a "solution".
    I think that the notion that bargnani makes our team worse simply by being on the floor is far from being sound, I don't buy into the "addition by subtraction" argument as I stated in my initial post. Look at the game against the bucks yesterday, having a healthy andrea bargnani coming off the bench in this last game could've meant we win the game.

    It is always much easier to make one person a scape goat, but I do not think the raptors problems are as simple as: "trade bargnani and we will become a good team".

    I believe we will be a better team once he gets healthy and is playing 24+ min. a game. That being said, I would be open to trading him if a trade presents itself in which the team gets better, because we are receiving some talent in return.
    "Defense wins championships."

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    I think that the notion that bargnani makes our team worse simply by being on the floor is far from being sound, I don't buy into the "addition by subtraction" argument as I stated in my initial post. Look at the game against the bucks yesterday, having a healthy andrea bargnani coming off the bench in this last game could've meant we win the game.

    It is always much easier to make one person a scape goat, but I do not think the raptors problems are as simple as: "trade bargnani and we will become a good team".

    I believe we will be a better team once he gets healthy and is playing 24+ min. a game. That being said, I would be open to trading him if a trade presents itself in which the team gets better, because we are receiving some talent in return.

    Trade Bargnani and we can have closure to a forgettable era of Raptor basketball? Yes.

    Trade Bargnani and we can never hear Casey say "he is our guy" or "come hell or high water" again? Yes.

    Trade Bargnani and we can never watch other players held to a higher standard on the glass and defensive side of the ball? Yes.

    Trade Bargnani and we can continue building towards the goal of a hard nosed, grind it out, defense first team? Yes.

    Trade Bargnani and we no longer have to worry about if the next game is when he decides to utilize his talent and abilities? Yes.


    But trade Bargnani and we will become a good team? No.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    SuperRaptor has a good point. As much as I'd like to see Bargs gone, he could prove to be useful as a bench player with limited minutes. He just needs a coach that understands his game and knows when and how to use him

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    SuperRaptor has a good point. As much as I'd like to see Bargs gone, he could prove to be useful as a bench player with limited minutes. He just needs a coach that understands his game and knows when and how to use him
    You mean like Alan Anderson?

    What you described for Bargnani is what you would pay someone $2m or less... not $11M next season.

    Bargnani is on his 3rd coach, all have had different styles, and all have had the same results. At some point, it isn't the coach.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You mean like Alan Anderson?

    What you described for Bargnani is what you would pay someone $2m or less... not $11M next season.

    Bargnani is on his 3rd coach, all have had different styles, and all have had the same results. At some point, it isn't the coach.
    Trust me, I'm aware of the contract. What I meant by my comment was that he could be useful on a team (doesn't have to be Toronto). And Barg hasn't had a legitimate bench role since his rookie year. It's hard to determine how he would play with limited minutes off the bench. If he plays horrible, bench him. If he's playing with energy and effort, play him a bit more. But obviously he's overpaid for that kind of role. Blame BC for how he managed that situation

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Trust me, I'm aware of the contract. What I meant by my comment was that he could be useful on a team (doesn't have to be Toronto). And Barg hasn't had a legitimate bench role since his rookie year. It's hard to determine how he would play with limited minutes off the bench. If he plays horrible, bench him. If he's playing with energy and effort, play him a bit more. But obviously he's overpaid for that kind of role. Blame BC for how he managed the situation
    Bold 1: Hopefully not Toronto, but yes, I agree.

    Bold 2: At $11M per season, I don't think this should be Toronto's goal to find out.

    Bold 3: #tradeBargnani
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    I think that the notion that bargnani makes our team worse simply by being on the floor is far from being sound, I don't buy into the "addition by subtraction" argument as I stated in my initial post. Look at the game against the bucks yesterday, having a healthy andrea bargnani coming off the bench in this last game could've meant we win the game.

    It is always much easier to make one person a scape goat, but I do not think the raptors problems are as simple as: "trade bargnani and we will become a good team".

    I believe we will be a better team once he gets healthy and is playing 24+ min. a game. That being said, I would be open to trading him if a trade presents itself in which the team gets better, because we are receiving some talent in return.
    Sorry, I wholeheartedly disagree. The Raptors will never be a "good" team with Bargnani as part of the rotation. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever. His weaknesses outweigh his strengths, which has been the case his entire career. Not sure why anyone would expect a change now.

    As for blaming a single player, that's not what's happening here. The Raptors have a plethora of problems. But that doesn't mean we can't address the most obvious one.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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