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The Raptors 2nd Unit & The Case For Bargnani As A 6th Man

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  • #31
    DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    what u forgot to mention is bargs grabs as many rebounds as Jason terry & his low post defence is no better than Jamal Crawford LOL
    Actually a few times, when he's wanted to, he's played not bad post d. Moves his feet, uses his length. He's a coward physically which means a lot of the time he avoids contact (like with rebounding), but when he actually wants to he can. Of course his perimeter d , rotation is putrid

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    • #32
      Whether we like it or not this scenario of bargnani coming off the bench is extremely probable, I for one hope that it is successful as this will help the team and maximize his trade value should we go that route. Can't wait for the raptors to get healthy!
      "Defense wins championships."

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      • #33
        Craiger wrote: View Post
        He's been treated unfairly? He has led the most privileged career of any Toronto Raptor that has ever worn the uniform. Always given the benifit of the doubt ......
        I can agree with this statement - albeit, not necessarily the term most priviledged. And although you don't focus on it, I believe that priviledged beginning was a mistake on the organization. While we can't guarantee a different result had Andrea been "developed" like other rookies are (ie. earn their keep), I do believe the different mindset now (with Casey), could change things.

        That being said, I have to disagree when people dismiss last season (the first with Casey) as a bad season by Bargnani. Taking into account the time needed (after an injury), and the fact that it was a recurring event, I'd say AB had a decent season. For the most part, Bargnani was more then a 13 game anomaly - or AB13.

        Craiger wrote: View Post
        First his style of play no longer fits what this team is doing. Thats just simple.
        I can agree that our focus has been too much on Bargnani, and not enough on team play, but that's not Andrea's fault. What Casey is doing now - focusing on team play - is what should continue when AB returns.

        As to his style of play, Raptors - with the insertion of Jose - have slowed down the pace of their games. When Lowry was starting, that pace did not gel with the talent on this team. Including Andrea.

        Craiger wrote: View Post
        Bargnani becoming the hero 6th man like Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford is nothing but another hope based theory based on his 'potential'.
        Until one tries, one can not dismiss how a "potential" 6th man plays out. In fact, it might relieve some pressure off AB from being that #1 pick that Rap fans are so fixated on.

        Although I'm pretty much resigned to the belief that Andrea will be run out of Toronto (sooner, rather then later), I question what Raps will have to deal with, in terms of players coming back.

        As well, I continue to believe that Toronto is not a destination of choice for free agents. No F/A agent signing (to Toronto) has proven different. NONE. As such I think the odds of Casey bringing out Bargnani's "potential" as a good contributor to this team - even as a 6th man - are greater then the chances of landing a Star talent in the Free Agent market.

        As to his salary, wtf do we care about that. Rogers has deep pockets (Hopefully Bell agrees). Plus, having Cap room has done us no good. Fact is, teams with high payrolls, have an easier time exchanging players.

        .

        As I have said in a number of other posts, this team is winning because of changes made.

        1) Jose is starting
        2) Lowry is passing better - coming off the Bench
        3) Bench - 2nd in the League (over this stretch)
        4) Team defense has picked up - simply because players have done it as a TEAM. Still, Raps are not as good as last season - even when AB was playing.
        5) During the Jose stretch, Raptors have been No. 1 in Pts out of the paint

        That latter point brings me to one of the weaknesses with this team - albeit injuries have played a strong part - is the play of our Front Court. Toronto is ranked 23rd in Points in the Paint differential.

        http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball.../4/diffeff/6-1

        Ed Davis & Amir may be holding their own, but they are not the priority reasons why this new season is excelling. The above 5 reasons are why Raptors have improved. In the end, Amir is a Bench player, as is Ed. For Davis, he hasn't begun to get true Opponent focus. That will be the real test.

        Should Raptors trade Bargnani, they will need to pick up another PF to START. One who can handle real Bigs - as Davis is too small for that chore.

        .

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        • #34
          My opinion is nail him to the bench. Give him a few minutes and if he misses a defensive assignment, pull his ass off the court. He will soon learn that he has to play with the eye of the tiger if he wants to play for the Raptors. We know he can score but with his length, he should be dominating the boards. I would not play him if he does not get 8 boards in 15 minutes of playing time. There is no reason he can't. Simple..... box out and tear it down. Outlet the ball and get your ass down the floor. Hit the basket and get back on defense and repeat.

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          • #35
            SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
            Whether we like it or not this scenario of bargnani coming off the bench is extremely probable, I for one hope that it is successful as this will help the team and maximize his trade value should we go that route.
            I agree with this. He'll be able to go up against lesser players, have softer minutes and as 6th man the focus will be less about what he can't do, and more about what he can: scoring. He'll either add something to the team, or be in an ideal spot for us to showcase him for a trade. I don't think he should just be handed 6th man minutes, he should come off the bench and earn his minutes. No more coddling.

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            • #36
              Puffer wrote: View Post
              ++1

              AB needs to be in a situation where he doesn't have to worry about defence. So he needs a team with a good defensive center, a good defensive SF, a team that is mostly good at running back on D and that needs an offensive lift.
              LMAO - Are you serious??? Why would anyone want a player who doesn't at least try to play defence?

              Why should Andrea continue to get coddled? Don't you think his teammates would resent this special guy? The guy isn't even efficient!

              He should be treated the same as everyone else....he needs to at least try to play defence and rebound or sit and watch Acy take his minutes.

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              • #37
                SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                Quincy Acy will be in the D-League within 2-4 weeks, you can bank on it. He is a 6'7 225lb PF, that can't shoot a jump shot, and is prone to fouling too much, No thanks.
                Would rather have a 6'7" PF with no jump shot than a 7' PF that can't rebound...or make jump shots...or play team D...or pass...or help in any capacity whatsoever.
                There's math, and everything else is debatable.

                @clericalbeats

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                • #38
                  RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
                  Would rather have a 6'7" PF with no jump shot than a 7' PF that can't rebound...or make jump shots...or play team D...or pass...or help in any capacity whatsoever.
                  Well thats a rather dumb statement to make. He can do all those things...but not in the way we or the team want him to. You guys are talking out of your asses like Andrea can't play. The thing is some of you fans always assume but you never know. He will be a great 6th man whether you like it or not.

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                  • #39
                    T.Dot wrote: View Post
                    Well thats a rather dumb statement to make. He can do all those things...but not in the way we or the team want him to. You guys are talking out of your asses like Andrea can't play. The thing is some of you fans always assume but you never know. He will be a great 6th man whether you like it or not.
                    I hope so! It would add more trade value to him.
                    @Chr1st1anL

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                    • #40
                      Lets just get things straight Andrea struggled at the start of the season career lows in fact, he usually shoots a lot better than that easily racking up double figures in a short time frame. Bargnani is a shooter and all shooters can go through a streak of struggling with their shot and the best way to come out of it is keep shooting, problem is Bargnani especially this year takes way too many 3s.Bargnani is at his best when he takes the short range shots its automatic because honestly no player can guard that.

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                      • #41
                        SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                        Bargnani has to be considered a step up on the 26 min. Aaron Gray and Quincy Acy gave us last night. Doesn't he? lol
                        With a healthy Jonas, Amir and Davis, a 4th big man is much less of a priority. IMO, our big man rotation should only be 3 deep anyway.

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                        • #42
                          Even as a 6th man, Bargnani's inability to rebound, rotate, and communicate on defense would hurt this team. He'd just hurt us less than he did as a starter. This does not qualify as a "solution".

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                          • #43
                            I think people need to distinguish between short term and long term objectives. In the short term, it is likely that the Raptors would probably perform best with a big rotation of Johnson, Davis and Bargnani, with JV getting rookie minutes in rookie situations. Objectively, a Bargnani/Johnson pairing is probably the second best big duo available to the Raptors right now.

                            I am a strong supporter of JV, and strongly endorse accelerating his development. But realistically, a rookie C is going to take his lumps and create challenges for his big partner. JV is a "-" player partnered with any of the other bigs.

                            Whichever combination keeps Gray off the floor seems like an improvement to me.

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                            • #44
                              I would not be stunned if Bargnani came back as a starter. The pattern for the past 5 years has been to do whatever it takes to make him happy. However if he is coming off the bench is Bargnani going to be able to adjust? Most 6th men can get hot quickly. Guys like Crawford and Terry don't need a lot of time to get warm. Harden and Ginobili don't just shoot the ball but can warm up by getting to the rim themselves or be playmakers for others on their team.

                              Bargnani might surprise us, but if he remains cold off the bench then the coach may try and put him in the starting line up again so that he gets warmer quicker which then negates the whole idea of Bargnani as a 6th man.

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                              • #45
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                Even as a 6th man, Bargnani's inability to rebound, rotate, and communicate on defense would hurt this team. He'd just hurt us less than he did as a starter. This does not qualify as a "solution".
                                I think that the notion that bargnani makes our team worse simply by being on the floor is far from being sound, I don't buy into the "addition by subtraction" argument as I stated in my initial post. Look at the game against the bucks yesterday, having a healthy andrea bargnani coming off the bench in this last game could've meant we win the game.

                                It is always much easier to make one person a scape goat, but I do not think the raptors problems are as simple as: "trade bargnani and we will become a good team".

                                I believe we will be a better team once he gets healthy and is playing 24+ min. a game. That being said, I would be open to trading him if a trade presents itself in which the team gets better, because we are receiving some talent in return.
                                "Defense wins championships."

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