View Poll Results: What do you think?

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  • Take other teams sh!t for prospects & picks

    20 46.51%
  • Keep doing what we are doing. We already have talent!

    11 25.58%
  • Time to accelerate the plan and go get a player such as Gay.

    11 25.58%
  • Other (please tell in comments)

    1 2.33%
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Thread: Revisited: Blow it up..... Seriously?? (Part 2)

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  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Revisited: Blow it up..... Seriously?? (Part 2)

    A lot has changed in Toronto since December 10th and the original "Blow it up.... Seriously" thread:

    • The Raptors have gone 10-4.
    • They are no longer the 2nd worst team in the league; they are now tied for 8th worst in wins with 14 (and 2 wins away from 5th worst).
    • The playoffs no longer seem like a comment worthy of ridicule but they are still far from a possibility.
    • The style of play has done a total 180.
    • The youth are getting more minutes (exception is JV who is injured but was getting minutes all along).
    • Casey no longer leaves you saying "WTF!?!?!" after nearly every possession/sequence.


    Just a quick refresher on what blow it up originally implied:

    1. fire management
    2. trade current veterans (Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, Amir) for worse contracts, like the worse of the worst in the league, for draft picks
    3. realize the current building process of the team is a giant FAIL and its ceiling is mediocrity if all goes according to plan.... for the love of sweet baby jesus the Raptors are the 2nd worst team in the league 21 games in!
    4. play the youth (DD, ED, TR, JV)
    Despite the turnaround, I still think talent and management continue to be an issue. The Raps still lack all-star talent and Colangelo continues to prove his drafting prowess but the other areas of team building (trades and especially free agency) are sketchy at best. Also, again despite the turnaround, the Raptors have gone from nearly the worst of the worst to the best of the worst with the possibility of creeping up in to the nearly worst of the average.

    I still believe the Raptors are ahead of the game if they went this route of taking on sh!t for prospects and picks. They already have 3-4 good young players. Another 2-3 drafts with multiple draft picks should do it. And if it does not, well, they'll be no worse off than they currently are: average at best.

    The original poll had 69% advocating "Blow it up!". What do you think now?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Aren't you guys tired of rebuilding, let them build little consistency even if they will become mediocre eventually it's easier to add stuff around mediocre team than to build from 0 once again.
    #FREE

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Aren't you guys tired of rebuilding, let them build little consistency even if they will become mediocre eventually it's easier to add stuff around mediocre team than to build from 0 once again.
    Trading Bargnani, Kleiza, Calderon, and possibly Amir for horrible contracts and picks/right to swap picks is hardly building from 0. Those horrible contracts don't need to play and it still leaves the team with DD, ED, TR, JV, KL, and possibly Amir plus guys like Anderson, Acy, and Fields.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Oh, that kind of trading, yea, half of them will go after the season anyway. I'm kinda neutral on this deal then. I don't think that Colangelo will risk loosing his job though so this is very unlikely to happen.
    #FREE

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A lot has changed in Toronto since December 10th and the original "Blow it up.... Seriously" thread:

    • The Raptors have gone 10-4.
    • They are no longer the 2nd worst team in the league; they are now tied for 8th worst in wins with 14 (and 2 wins away from 5th worst).
    • The playoffs no longer seem like a comment worthy of ridicule but they are still far from a possibility.
    • The style of play has done a total 180.
    • The youth are getting more minutes (exception is JV who is injured but was getting minutes all along).
    • Casey no longer leaves you saying "WTF!?!?!" after nearly every possession/sequence.


    Just a quick refresher on what blow it up originally implied:



    Despite the turnaround, I still think talent and management continue to be an issue. The Raps still lack all-star talent and Colangelo continues to prove his drafting prowess but the other areas of team building (trades and especially free agency) are sketchy at best. Also, again despite the turnaround, the Raptors have gone from nearly the worst of the worst to the best of the worst with the possibility of creeping up in to the nearly worst of the average.

    I still believe the Raptors are ahead of the game if they went this route of taking on sh!t for prospects and picks. They already have 3-4 good young players. Another 2-3 drafts with multiple draft picks should do it. And if it does not, well, they'll be no worse off than they currently are: average at best.

    The original poll had 69% advocating "Blow it up!". What do you think now?
    #1 and #2 are actually not that far apart. I think we have a decent talent base (DD, TR, JV, ED, maybe KL), but that doesnt mean we shouldnt trade AB and other guys who arent part of the core for whatever we can get in terms of picks / prospects (which, as you suggest, likely necessitates taking on some junk players / contracts. Im reasonably content with where we are, but we are still FOR SURE a player or two away from being a playoff team .. and the draft is the most likely place to get that player ..

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    #1 and #2 are actually not that far apart. I think we have a decent talent base (DD, TR, JV, ED, maybe KL), but that doesnt mean we shouldnt trade AB and other guys who arent part of the core for whatever we can get in terms of picks / prospects (which, as you suggest, likely necessitates taking on some junk players / contracts. Im reasonably content with where we are, but we are still FOR SURE a player or two away from being a playoff team .. and the draft is the most likely place to get that player ..
    Agreed. Curious to see how people feel 1 month later and after much better display of coaching and playing.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #7
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    we need a fresh start, new GM should do the trick of getting rid of all the deadweight.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    we need a fresh start, new GM should do the trick of getting rid of all the deadweight.
    I hear Brian Burke is available

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Starter imaginelino's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    we need a fresh start, new GM should do the trick of getting rid of all the deadweight.
    on what planet does changing the GM translates to new success. Get over this notion that the GM has been the problem. Team needs continuity, a plan and young talent that everyone has been crying for. Remember the rebuild.

  10. #10
    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    I am ok with getting rid of expiring or large contracts. Packaging Calderon and Bargs should be priority. I don't want to trade anyone who made a leap in their play this year unless it is for someone legit and the situation is right. I don't see the rumored gay trade as something that makes sense. We get a guy who isn't happy with his contending team and we get 2 years to turn it around and be in a better position than Memphis. Yeah good luck with that. Guy would walk after 2 years. It doesn't benefit us at all, 2 year expensive rental on a fringe all star. Raptor fan boner is just because this guy destroys us.

  11. #11
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    I still think #1 and #2 are th way to go. Anyone that thinks BC is still a viable option at GM, I direct you to Matt52's avatar. #3 isn't quite as true as we all thought. It looks like Ross, Ed, JV, and to a smaller extent derozan and Amir are good building blocks. However, this team to me looks like NY before the Melo trade (or Denver after). A bunch of mid level talent that goes 10 deep. Only problem is if all 10 guys are a similar level of talent, you aren't a very good team. It also doesn't help the coach make a rotation (like Casey early on).

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    #1

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    I felt like option 2 "trade current veterans (Bargnani, Calderon, Kleiza, Amir) for worse contracts, like the worse of the worst in the league, for draft picks" but without Amir ,1 month ago and I still feel that way.
    I like how Calderon plays but it would be idiotic not to trade him. If he is so loyal to the team and if we want him that bad we can sign him in the summer.(Yes,we do treat him badly but yet we pay him VERY good money)
    I would almost never include Amir in a package deal unless it brings a TRUE all star player. The one that can turn franchise around (not semi all star,not on the edge to be an all star and definitely not for a "potential" player)
    If Kleiza doesn't bring enough value and we can use the money for something better - amnesty
    I think Bargnani + almost anyone on our roster could bring a good PIECE.(see trade suggestions in the trade proposal forum)
    Even if the "wet dream" of 8th seed early playoff exit from the Heat happens with THOSE players playing,getting money and "stealing" playing time from our younger guys I would rather we don't make the playoffs.
    To clarify I am not trying to say "trade Jose,Bargnani and fuck Kleiza for rack of balls". I would like what Matt and many posters on RR are begging for - get TALENT in return. Because if we have money but make another "Turkoglu" signing in the offseason it doesn't do us any good.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    #2

    But i wouldn't trade Amir. I'd trade DeMar first beofre Amir. I think every team needs a player like Amir Johnson. And people also needs to remember that Amir Johnson is only 25 years old.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic All-Star Sig's Avatar
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    Rudy Gay please.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

    From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

    There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

    That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

    The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

    ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

    From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

    There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

    That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

    The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

    ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
    Very well laid out point.

    I've been saying for weeks that the team needs to trade Jose to move forward and Lowry isn't able to contribute as well off the bench. Some guys need to start to get the right flow.
    F*ck Brooklyn

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

    From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

    There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

    That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

    The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

    ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
    Totally agree. Yet another reason why Gay changes things dramatically. His skill set hasn't been seen in these parts since the Carter days...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

    From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

    There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

    That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

    The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

    ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
    I agree with the sentiment of this post - ie. Jose is a better 'team' player, Lowry is the better 'individual' player and this team needs more talent in general.

    However, Lowry clearly can not dominate night in and night out. He can at times dominate a game, but never consistently. So the trade off is consistent superior team play vs less reliable superior individual play. So aside from my personal belief that a PG's most important role is getting their teammates involved (and why I like Jose) until Lowry can prove he can be consistent about his individual play while also getting others more involved (which he undoubtedly has the capacity to do) starting and playing Jose makes more sense.

    (In the grand scheme of things I'm not concerned who starts/finishes, both are quality PGs and I still expect both to have years of quality PG play in them - Lowry because he's younger, Jose because his style of play lends itself to a long shelf life).

    In general though there is no question this team needs alot more talent. But I also don't think adding Gay is the solution. This team needs to be rebuilt and it needs to do that through the draft. Gay is a good player, but not that stud this team needs. Add a rather terrible contract and that Toronto is almost guaranteed to send a quality young player in order to obtain him, its just the step forward before two steps back.

    Ideal situation for Toronto this year is to end between 4th and 14th to get that protected pick out of their hair. Trading/amnestying Bargnani. Finding a way to add high draft picks. Consistent minutes for Ross and Val. And setting up for a long losing season next year. (I'd also add finding a new home for Demar to that list)

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I agree with the sentiment of this post - ie. Jose is a better 'team' player, Lowry is the better 'individual' player and this team needs more talent in general.

    However, Lowry clearly can not dominate night in and night out. He can at times dominate a game, but never consistently. So the trade off is consistent superior team play vs less reliable superior individual play. So aside from my personal belief that a PG's most important role is getting their teammates involved (and why I like Jose) until Lowry can prove he can be consistent about his individual play while also getting others more involved (which he undoubtedly has the capacity to do) starting and playing Jose makes more sense.

    (In the grand scheme of things I'm not concerned who starts/finishes, both are quality PGs and I still expect both to have years of quality PG play in them - Lowry because he's younger, Jose because his style of play lends itself to a long shelf life).

    In general though there is no question this team needs alot more talent. But I also don't think adding Gay is the solution. This team needs to be rebuilt and it needs to do that through the draft. Gay is a good player, but not that stud this team needs. Add a rather terrible contract and that Toronto is almost guaranteed to send a quality young player in order to obtain him, its just the step forward before two steps back.

    Ideal situation for Toronto this year is to end between 4th and 14th to get that protected pick out of their hair. Trading/amnestying Bargnani. Finding a way to add high draft picks. Consistent minutes for Ross and Val. And setting up for a long losing season next year. (I'd also add finding a new home for Demar to that list)
    Consistency has certainly been a concern but I think that has to do with the circumstances currently surrounding his role with the team.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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