Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
I think we can all agree that the Milwaukee game didn't (or shouldn't) change the belief that Raptors still need more talent. As for what it solidified more (for me), that would be the Raptors not making the play-offs this season.



We have a somewhat different philosophy on the Jose vs Kyle debate.

What exactly is a pure PG? That term gets bandied about, the implication being it's a pass first PG. To me, a pure PG is not just a good passer, but a player who QB's the team. Someone who leads - someone who develops the flow and speed to a game.

And what does "better player" mean? Should MVP be the best player, or the most valuable player to his team. Lowry might be the best player, but he's not the most valuable player.

Kyle is a SG in a PG body - albeit, a shorter body (I have doubts he's 6.0 feet tall). Even then, he's still not that great relative to a Shooting Guard. The simple fact is, Kyle's undersized at any position. When he gets into the paint area, his size affects his court vision and passing abilities. To me, Jose has him there.

Then there's his defensive capabilities. Personally, I think people's opinions are over-inflated when it comes to Lowry's defensive capabilities. To me, Kyle gambles too much. And his size really affects him when a mismatch occurs.

Some Kyle Lowry Stats (relative to top PG's)

The GOOD stats:
1) eff. - 3rd for Point Guards
2) F/Ta - 3rd
3) Rebounds - 3rd overall, but down to 37th in January - albeit with reduced playing time.

The NOT-SO-GOOD stats:
1) fg% - 22nd amongst PG (with 25+ minutes)
3) 3pt % - 16th (w/25+ min)
4) Assists - 20th @ 6.0 apg.

Fact is, Lowry's better off the Bench (or maybe it's the "Calderon is winning" effect). His Assists off the Bench - 6.4 apg (23.5 min) ... As a Starter - 5.7 apg (31.1 min).

Jose Stats as a Starter (vs Lowry as a Starter)
1) Minutes - Jose 32.9 mpg (Kyle 31.1 mpg)
2) fg% - .489 (.410)
3) 3pt % - .440 (.362)
4) Assists - 10.2 apg (5.7 apg)
5) Turnovers - 1.8 (2.6)
6) Rebounds - 3.3 (5.7)
.

Stats aside, Kyle Lowry in no way compares to Jose when it comes to Quarter Backing the team. Kyle may get it some day, but for this Raptor team - now - he's not helping. Except when he comes off the Bench - more Assists (and in less minutes), better fg%, and better 3pt%. If I didn't know better, I'd say KL is more effective in a back-up role. Question is ... can his EGO accept this?
Fact, eh? Lowry's assist off the bench have nothing to do with him changing his style of play as his teammates and coach have asked him to do? Please. People want the guy to conform which he has done and are then tear a strip off him for not being who he was and is. The stats you presented are without context (or excuses, for lack of a better term): Casey has changed his entire approach to the game since December 10th and Lowry's injury; Lowry originally came back from injury too soon and was not healthy; the entire focus of the team shifted from Bargnani/Lowry to a team centered approach.

Your stats are ridiculous and are slightly biased to your argument... which is cool but they hardly make anything fact. Despite Lowry's low shooting percentage his true shooting percentage is just 1.6% less than Calderon's. The stats you have presented of Lowry averaging 6.5 ast in 23.5 mins are all as a backup and since his return he has not had a chance to start - per 36 mins that is 10 assists per game. The whole team concept and focus changes and Lowry shows he can adapt to the change yet you insist on making your case with apples to oranges comparisons? No one - myself included - has defended Lowry's style of play upon return from injury the first go round.

Here is a crazy thought as Lowry is ripped, lets look at Jose's stats coming off the bench:
22.0 mins, 8.1 pts, .398 fg%, 1.3rebs, 4.2 assists, 0.5 stl, 1.5to
All this talk of Jose's professionalism and how great he is hardly backed up by his play off the bench.

Here is a crazier thought, lets look at Jose's record leading the Raptors the last 5 years.... nevermind.

The fact here truly is Lowry has hardly been given a shot to lead this team with the turnaround and re-shifted focus of the coaching staff despite his conformity to the direction of the team. Any comparisons pre- and post- December 10th is, for lack of a better term, horseshit because this is not the same team.


Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
As I've stated in previous posts, getting that elusive wing requires trading for it. The draft is out - for now. Free Agency is out as well (Canada eh!). That leaves a trade.

Bargnani is out ... thanks to angry fans (and media needing a good story), as well as your #tradeBargnani extravanganza. I have a question, and this is a analogy-type question, relative to buying a home. When you're touring the home, and the Owner is there, do you shout out .... I LOVE THIS F##KING HOUSE - IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR.... TOO BAD IT HAS THE PROJECTS ON ONE SIDE, A NUCLEAR WASTE DUMP ON THE OTHER, AND PLANES LANDING AND DEPARTING DIRECTLY OVERHEAD FROM THE AIRPORT 2KM DOWN THE ROAD.... And then wonder why you have a poor bargaining position.

.
I fixed your quote.

I am truly flattered you think #tradeBargnani has any pull with not only the Raptors brass but any (or all) of the other 29 NBA teams. Read some message boards of other teams: Bargnani's flaws are the worst kept secret in the NBA among fans. I think the GM's have and can figure it out too. But again, thanks.

Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
Continuing on with tradeable assets, I think we can agree that Jonas is out. Probably Ross as well - too soon to guage - he could be a Star (or close equivalent). Demar is an obligation that pushes the limits. Amir is too banged up.

That leaves Kyle Lowry - who I believe is still a good player, just not right for the Raptors. That's assuming he has no interest in being a Back-up PG. Of course you could always promote him with #KyleLowryistheBest. I'd help.

Then there is Ed Davis. Would you be willing to move Ed for an equivalent talent in the SF mold? Personally, I think Ed returns us the most - albeit, even with Andrea gone, Raps will still need a Starting PF. Ed is just not big enough, or strong enough.

Add Lowry into that (Ed) trade mix, and we should be able to get some serious talent back. Possibly a good SF (or upcoming one), to go along with a PG that Jose can mentor. Someone who JC can take a Bench role to ... DOWN THE ROAD ... for when our talent improves - new and existing.

I'm all for making the Raptors better. But before you go and trade Lowry and anoint Jose the short term starter and long term mentor, did you consider Jose is an unrestricted free agent who has made it well known he'd like to play in a warmer climate, compete for a championship, and has done jack shit for the Raptors winning percentage over the last 5 years? Jose's true professionalism is a double-edged sword: once his contract is up, so are his obligations.

Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
On another note, I still agree with your previous position about Bargnani, that someone will (or may) get that Star quality out of him, or at least close to this level. I know you and others keep harping about 7 years, but to me, it was 5 years, as Andrea was still our best player last year.

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112TOR.HTM

This year ... Andrea ... along with everyone else - played like shit. I'm curious to know how he'd do when he gets back - for whatever role that should be. Lowry has adapted - for the most part. If KL can - and he never did before - why can't AB. The big Italian is playing for the Coach who pulled it out of him last season. Raptors just have to stop calling him a Franchise type, and take away the bizarre focus we've had on him.

The reason why I like him as a player - albeit I get frustrated too - is because he has the most talent on this team. Key word is "talent". For me, talent isn't jumping at the opportunity to come to Toronto Canada, no matter how much we talk about "sucking" being the reason. It never was with the earlier Vince, nor with Bosh (in the good years).


The bottom line is ... we're not going anywhere right now. This season should be about developing Jonas & Ross, taking certain players to another level, and integrating everyone into a system that can be built onto. I know this is probably point-less, but if AB can find his groove (under Casey) and become a PART (and not the focus) to this team, why jettison him for what will probably be a similar contract that has no upside ... because with all this vitrol being shared out there, what team would do such a thing - Give us more then what you and others think he's worth.

The irony to all this, is that those who hate Andrea, and want to see him go - SO BADLY ... ... they are the same ones contributing to his staying here - for reasons explained above.
Previous position? Not sure when I changed. Still think Bargnani will thrive in an environment where he is not the main guy and has a cast of players that play to his weaknesses.

Best player based on those stats? How about these stats:
http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?player_ids[]=314&season=2011&utf8=%E2%9C%93 (negative win share)

Why can't AB adapt if Lowry did? Hmmmm, 7 f*cking seasons versus 15 games - and Lowry is still being ripped a new one? Seriously, stop the nut hugging and excuses. 7 SEASONS!


The true irony I find is the exact same arguments and excuses are being made for Bargnani after all this time.