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  • Take other teams sh!t for prospects & picks

    20 46.51%
  • Keep doing what we are doing. We already have talent!

    11 25.58%
  • Time to accelerate the plan and go get a player such as Gay.

    11 25.58%
  • Other (please tell in comments)

    1 2.33%
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Thread: Revisited: Blow it up..... Seriously?? (Part 2)

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    I think we can all agree that the Milwaukee game didn't (or shouldn't) change the belief that Raptors still need more talent. As for what it solidified more (for me), that would be the Raptors not making the play-offs this season.



    We have a somewhat different philosophy on the Jose vs Kyle debate.

    What exactly is a pure PG? That term gets bandied about, the implication being it's a pass first PG. To me, a pure PG is not just a good passer, but a player who QB's the team. Someone who leads - someone who develops the flow and speed to a game.

    And what does "better player" mean? Should MVP be the best player, or the most valuable player to his team. Lowry might be the best player, but he's not the most valuable player.

    Kyle is a SG in a PG body - albeit, a shorter body (I have doubts he's 6.0 feet tall). Even then, he's still not that great relative to a Shooting Guard. The simple fact is, Kyle's undersized at any position. When he gets into the paint area, his size affects his court vision and passing abilities. To me, Jose has him there.

    Then there's his defensive capabilities. Personally, I think people's opinions are over-inflated when it comes to Lowry's defensive capabilities. To me, Kyle gambles too much. And his size really affects him when a mismatch occurs.

    Some Kyle Lowry Stats (relative to top PG's)

    The GOOD stats:
    1) eff. - 3rd for Point Guards
    2) F/Ta - 3rd
    3) Rebounds - 3rd overall, but down to 37th in January - albeit with reduced playing time.

    The NOT-SO-GOOD stats:
    1) fg% - 22nd amongst PG (with 25+ minutes)
    3) 3pt % - 16th (w/25+ min)
    4) Assists - 20th @ 6.0 apg.

    Fact is, Lowry's better off the Bench (or maybe it's the "Calderon is winning" effect). His Assists off the Bench - 6.4 apg (23.5 min) ... As a Starter - 5.7 apg (31.1 min).

    Jose Stats as a Starter (vs Lowry as a Starter)
    1) Minutes - Jose 32.9 mpg (Kyle 31.1 mpg)
    2) fg% - .489 (.410)
    3) 3pt % - .440 (.362)
    4) Assists - 10.2 apg (5.7 apg)
    5) Turnovers - 1.8 (2.6)
    6) Rebounds - 3.3 (5.7)
    .

    Stats aside, Kyle Lowry in no way compares to Jose when it comes to Quarter Backing the team. Kyle may get it some day, but for this Raptor team - now - he's not helping. Except when he comes off the Bench - more Assists (and in less minutes), better fg%, and better 3pt%. If I didn't know better, I'd say KL is more effective in a back-up role. Question is ... can his EGO accept this?
    Fact, eh? Lowry's assist off the bench have nothing to do with him changing his style of play as his teammates and coach have asked him to do? Please. People want the guy to conform which he has done and are then tear a strip off him for not being who he was and is. The stats you presented are without context (or excuses, for lack of a better term): Casey has changed his entire approach to the game since December 10th and Lowry's injury; Lowry originally came back from injury too soon and was not healthy; the entire focus of the team shifted from Bargnani/Lowry to a team centered approach.

    Your stats are ridiculous and are slightly biased to your argument... which is cool but they hardly make anything fact. Despite Lowry's low shooting percentage his true shooting percentage is just 1.6% less than Calderon's. The stats you have presented of Lowry averaging 6.5 ast in 23.5 mins are all as a backup and since his return he has not had a chance to start - per 36 mins that is 10 assists per game. The whole team concept and focus changes and Lowry shows he can adapt to the change yet you insist on making your case with apples to oranges comparisons? No one - myself included - has defended Lowry's style of play upon return from injury the first go round.

    Here is a crazy thought as Lowry is ripped, lets look at Jose's stats coming off the bench:
    22.0 mins, 8.1 pts, .398 fg%, 1.3rebs, 4.2 assists, 0.5 stl, 1.5to
    All this talk of Jose's professionalism and how great he is hardly backed up by his play off the bench.

    Here is a crazier thought, lets look at Jose's record leading the Raptors the last 5 years.... nevermind.

    The fact here truly is Lowry has hardly been given a shot to lead this team with the turnaround and re-shifted focus of the coaching staff despite his conformity to the direction of the team. Any comparisons pre- and post- December 10th is, for lack of a better term, horseshit because this is not the same team.


    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    As I've stated in previous posts, getting that elusive wing requires trading for it. The draft is out - for now. Free Agency is out as well (Canada eh!). That leaves a trade.

    Bargnani is out ... thanks to angry fans (and media needing a good story), as well as your #tradeBargnani extravanganza. I have a question, and this is a analogy-type question, relative to buying a home. When you're touring the home, and the Owner is there, do you shout out .... I LOVE THIS F##KING HOUSE - IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR.... TOO BAD IT HAS THE PROJECTS ON ONE SIDE, A NUCLEAR WASTE DUMP ON THE OTHER, AND PLANES LANDING AND DEPARTING DIRECTLY OVERHEAD FROM THE AIRPORT 2KM DOWN THE ROAD.... And then wonder why you have a poor bargaining position.

    .
    I fixed your quote.

    I am truly flattered you think #tradeBargnani has any pull with not only the Raptors brass but any (or all) of the other 29 NBA teams. Read some message boards of other teams: Bargnani's flaws are the worst kept secret in the NBA among fans. I think the GM's have and can figure it out too. But again, thanks.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Continuing on with tradeable assets, I think we can agree that Jonas is out. Probably Ross as well - too soon to guage - he could be a Star (or close equivalent). Demar is an obligation that pushes the limits. Amir is too banged up.

    That leaves Kyle Lowry - who I believe is still a good player, just not right for the Raptors. That's assuming he has no interest in being a Back-up PG. Of course you could always promote him with #KyleLowryistheBest. I'd help.

    Then there is Ed Davis. Would you be willing to move Ed for an equivalent talent in the SF mold? Personally, I think Ed returns us the most - albeit, even with Andrea gone, Raps will still need a Starting PF. Ed is just not big enough, or strong enough.

    Add Lowry into that (Ed) trade mix, and we should be able to get some serious talent back. Possibly a good SF (or upcoming one), to go along with a PG that Jose can mentor. Someone who JC can take a Bench role to ... DOWN THE ROAD ... for when our talent improves - new and existing.

    I'm all for making the Raptors better. But before you go and trade Lowry and anoint Jose the short term starter and long term mentor, did you consider Jose is an unrestricted free agent who has made it well known he'd like to play in a warmer climate, compete for a championship, and has done jack shit for the Raptors winning percentage over the last 5 years? Jose's true professionalism is a double-edged sword: once his contract is up, so are his obligations.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    On another note, I still agree with your previous position about Bargnani, that someone will (or may) get that Star quality out of him, or at least close to this level. I know you and others keep harping about 7 years, but to me, it was 5 years, as Andrea was still our best player last year.

    http://www.82games.com/1112/1112TOR.HTM

    This year ... Andrea ... along with everyone else - played like shit. I'm curious to know how he'd do when he gets back - for whatever role that should be. Lowry has adapted - for the most part. If KL can - and he never did before - why can't AB. The big Italian is playing for the Coach who pulled it out of him last season. Raptors just have to stop calling him a Franchise type, and take away the bizarre focus we've had on him.

    The reason why I like him as a player - albeit I get frustrated too - is because he has the most talent on this team. Key word is "talent". For me, talent isn't jumping at the opportunity to come to Toronto Canada, no matter how much we talk about "sucking" being the reason. It never was with the earlier Vince, nor with Bosh (in the good years).


    The bottom line is ... we're not going anywhere right now. This season should be about developing Jonas & Ross, taking certain players to another level, and integrating everyone into a system that can be built onto. I know this is probably point-less, but if AB can find his groove (under Casey) and become a PART (and not the focus) to this team, why jettison him for what will probably be a similar contract that has no upside ... because with all this vitrol being shared out there, what team would do such a thing - Give us more then what you and others think he's worth.

    The irony to all this, is that those who hate Andrea, and want to see him go - SO BADLY ... ... they are the same ones contributing to his staying here - for reasons explained above.
    Previous position? Not sure when I changed. Still think Bargnani will thrive in an environment where he is not the main guy and has a cast of players that play to his weaknesses.

    Best player based on those stats? How about these stats:
    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?player_ids[]=314&season=2011&utf8=%E2%9C%93 (negative win share)

    Why can't AB adapt if Lowry did? Hmmmm, 7 f*cking seasons versus 15 games - and Lowry is still being ripped a new one? Seriously, stop the nut hugging and excuses. 7 SEASONS!


    The true irony I find is the exact same arguments and excuses are being made for Bargnani after all this time.
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  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    .

    I voted to accelerate the plan, although not necessarily towards Gay. I'm still not sure Rudy is a wise move. He certainly is enticing. A guy like Gay would instantly change our weakest spot. However, if Lowry doesn't prove his mettle, the weak spot would just be changing places.

    The time to make moves (for next season), should be starting now. Or somewhere before the trade deadline. With the tax money issue motivating teams, and large salaries attached to certain talented players, wealthy teams can take advantage. Or more appropriately, Owners with cash can afford a little more tax. Which for the Raptors, these new Bosses seem more inclined to partake.

    The Jays are in, and the hockey team - after wiping the slate - will attract a greater financial attention. Not so much because of CBA restrictions, but certainly anywhere else they can be better. These new Bosses need material for their business, so whatever it takes - even if they're loss leaders. Putting asses in the seats is important, but media content brings a new dimension to the picture.

    .

    A Gay trade for Jose & Ed might bring some surprises to both sides. That could mean Bayless coming back - although the trade machine says I need another player (with enough Toronto salary). Fields brings that, and he is a SF. As well, Grizzlies are short in quality (now) Bench Bigs with offensive skills, so Ed should work perfect.

    For the Grizzlies, Jose might even find himself on the Starting sguad - as his PG numbers are much better then Conley, and his deficiencies would more then be compensated by Gasol, Randolph, and Allen. I'd even go so far as to say the Offensive numbers for these 3 players would improve under JC.

    .

    Raps will still need another PF, but that's a task for the summer. A Starting line-up with a new Lowry, a 2nd option Demar (better for him), a real (and more experienced) Centre, plus 1st Option Rudy - who has something to prove - has the chance to be a 2nd Round Play-off team next season. And if Mr. Enigma was ever to find his way, who knows how far this team could go. But ... if he "the Smitch Talent" should not come to fruition, the Raptors should have enough "potential" such that an up and coming PF would be enticed to jump over the Canadian barrier. And prove me wrong.

    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Mon Jan 14th, 2013 at 11:24 PM.

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Fact, eh? .....

    Your stats are ridiculous and are slightly biased to your argument... .....

    The stats you have presented of Lowry averaging 6.5 ast in 23.5 mins are all as a backup and since his return he has not had a chance to start - per 36 mins that is 10 assists per game. The whole team concept and focus changes and Lowry shows he can adapt to the change yet you insist on making your case with apples to oranges comparisons? No one - myself included - has defended Lowry's style of play upon return from injury the first go round.
    Lowry's stats are - for the most part - against Bench opponents. He has also been working with a Bench - that since mid-December - is one of the top Benches in the League (Milwaukee game excluded).


    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Your stats are ridiculous and are slightly biased to your argument... which is cool but they hardly make anything fact.
    Stat analysis will always be subjective. If I inferred them as a solitary fact, then I take that back. For the record, most analysts adjust for facts, to fit the argument.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Here is a crazy thought as Lowry is ripped .....
    Don't get me wrong. Even though I think Kyle needs to adapt (it is his 3rd Groundhog Day), I still believe he is talented. And well worth a 12 - 14th pick in the upcoming draft. But I don't think he's the guy for this next phase of the Raptors.

    That being said ... he could be. Actually, I think he has potential to be even better (then his current persona), if he learned to use his strength, to create open space, and then PASS the ball. He could easily get that 10 apg that you suggested was possible.

    Should Jose move on, and a guy like Gay arrives (prior to the deadline), the worst that could happen is we ride out the season, and move KL next summer. Reboot with a core of talented players.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The fact here truly is Lowry has hardly been given a shot to lead this team with the turnaround and re-shifted focus of the coaching staff despite his conformity to the direction of the team. Any comparisons pre- and post- December 10th is, for lack of a better term, horseshit because this is not the same team.

    I don't agree with the comparison synopsis, but for the part "Lowry has hardly been given a shot to lead this team" ... you may be right. And he may adapt.


    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I fixed your quote.
    I am truly flattered you think #tradeBargnani has any pull with not only the Raptors brass but any (or all) of the other 29 NBA teams.
    I think you don't give yourself enough credit. Not to suggest Bryan is listening - someone is - but for some, these Blogs are a way to better learn the game. Consider that for why I read your comments. These Blogs also provide a little fun .... maybe throw in a little Bull$hit, just because we can.


    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm all for making the Raptors better. But before you go and trade Lowry and anoint Jose the short term starter and long term mentor, did you consider Jose is an unrestricted free agent who has made it well known he'd like to play in a warmer climate, compete for a championship, and has done jack shit for the Raptors winning percentage over the last 5 years?
    Yes.
    We can lose Jose, and get nothing back. Except 10.6 million.
    We do get something for Lowry.

    Why would Calderon sign?
    Should he return, it will be as a Starter. Nothing less. A Starter for the only team he has come to know. In 8 NBA seasons. Does Jose want to go to a Winner?

    He should talk to Nash, and ask him what warm and fuzzy feels like.

    Never-the-less, if Jose walks for free .... Raps get something for Lowry, and 10.6 million available to sign someone better. Difficult to see the negatives.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Previous position? Not sure when I changed. Still think Bargnani will thrive in an environment where he is not the main guy and has a cast of players that play to his weaknesses.

    Why can't AB adapt if Lowry did? Hmmmm, 7 f*cking seasons versus 15 games - and Lowry is still being ripped a new one?
    One minute you extoll his virtues ... then dismiss the formula that had success, because it fell within an unforgiveable time period. If he goes, then so be it.

    From my perspective, you have to look at last season, where - despite the proverbial 10 game recovery phase - Bargs was still the best player (or close enough to debate it). That said, I have to admit I started to change my thoughts on AB's future with this club - as this season progressed. Sometimes divorce is the better option.

    Then I heard Smitch on a radio interview. It was not pretty. You could tell there was some anger there. But despite all the negative words, Smitch continued to repeat that he genuinely believed - based on talent - that Andrea was the best choice. That of course factored in Brandon Roy, and the knees that today have become his undoing. If not for that, Raps were picking Roy.

    As for Andrea, it goes beyond all the emotion. More a logical business plan, that gives reason for him. One that is strictly all about the numbers. Not wins and losses, although essentially it does come down to them. More so about odds. Like what are the odds Andrea makes it to the All-Star game (or is in the running), versus an All-Star actually coming here. That of course doesn't preclude Demar, or Jonas making the big game. I expect an All-Star moment at some point in their careers. Ross has potential. Kyle has too much competition.

    .

    Despite my opposition to Andrea being amnestied this summer, the fall-back position of his presense on this team, is the 12 million dollar amensty value in 2014. If I'm not mistaken, that's expected to be a good Free Agency year - with some serious names possible. That 12 mil wipe-out could also provide flexibility in taking back salary (for a price, of course). Especially with teams like LA, NY, or BK .... looking to clear space to acquire one of those possible Stars.



    .
    Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Tue Jan 15th, 2013 at 01:42 AM.

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Lowry's stats are - for the most part - against Bench opponents. He has also been working with a Bench - that since mid-December - is one of the top Benches in the League (Milwaukee game excluded).
    Interesting that Jose was unable to get the same production from the bench and Jose's own stats were abysmal.


    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Stat analysis will always be subjective. If I inferred them as a solitary fact, then I take that back. For the record, most analysts adjust for facts, to fit the argument.
    Agreed.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Don't get me wrong. Even though I think Kyle needs to adapt (it is his 3rd Groundhog Day), I still believe he is talented. And well worth a 12 - 14th pick in the upcoming draft. But I don't think he's the guy for this next phase of the Raptors.

    That being said ... he could be. Actually, I think he has potential to be even better (then his current persona), if he learned to use his strength, to create open space, and then PASS the ball. He could easily get that 10 apg that you suggested was possible.

    Should Jose move on, and a guy like Gay arrives (prior to the deadline), the worst that could happen is we ride out the season, and move KL next summer. Reboot with a core of talented players.
    Lowry is averaging 10 ast per 36 mins. I didn't suggest he could average 10 assists per game. Just clarifying.

    The only way Gay is coming to Toronto before the deadline is if the Raptors throw in 2 of JV, Ross, and ED. I think that is too steep of a price to pay.


    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with the comparison synopsis, but for the part "Lowry has hardly been given a shot to lead this team" ... you may be right. And he may adapt.
    I look forward to what happens after February 21.


    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    I think you don't give yourself enough credit. Not to suggest Bryan is listening - someone is - but for some, these Blogs are a way to better learn the game. Consider that for why I read your comments. These Blogs also provide a little fun .... maybe throw in a little Bull$hit, just because we can.

    I'm all about the bullsh!t.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Yes.
    We can lose Jose, and get nothing back. Except 10.6 million.
    We do get something for Lowry.

    Why would Calderon sign?
    Should he return, it will be as a Starter. Nothing less. A Starter for the only team he has come to know. In 8 NBA seasons. Does Jose want to go to a Winner?

    He should talk to Nash, and ask him what warm and fuzzy feels like.

    Never-the-less, if Jose walks for free .... Raps get something for Lowry, and 10.6 million available to sign someone better. Difficult to see the negatives.
    Not sure how any Raptor fan can take solace in $10.6M of cap space based on past history.

    But the reality is the Raps don't have $10.6M in cap space. Their roster for next year currently has a payroll of $58M. The team will have to make significant trades or use amnesty on Bargnani to get over $10M in cap space. Then to use that space any Bird Rights or exceptions need to be renounced.

    When talking PG, the crop is thin for next season. CP3? No. Best option for the Raptors to get a talented PG in FA is going to be Jennings and he will not come cheap. He will also relieve the numerous 'pass first' PG talk combined with poor defense. And Jennings, like most of the more desired free agent PG's, is going to be a RFA.

    No one is going to be more value or talented than Lowry at $6.21M next season.


    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    One minute you extoll his virtues ... then dismiss the formula that had success, because it fell within an unforgiveable time period. If he goes, then so be it.

    From my perspective, you have to look at last season, where - despite the proverbial 10 game recovery phase - Bargs was still the best player (or close enough to debate it). That said, I have to admit I started to change my thoughts on AB's future with this club - as this season progressed. Sometimes divorce is the better option.

    Then I heard Smitch on a radio interview. It was not pretty. You could tell there was some anger there. But despite all the negative words, Smitch continued to repeat that he genuinely believed - based on talent - that Andrea was the best choice. That of course factored in Brandon Roy, and the knees that today have become his undoing. If not for that, Raps were picking Roy.

    As for Andrea, it goes beyond all the emotion. More a logical business plan, that gives reason for him. One that is strictly all about the numbers. Not wins and losses, although essentially it does come down to them. More so about odds. Like what are the odds Andrea makes it to the All-Star game (or is in the running), versus an All-Star actually coming here. That of course doesn't preclude Demar, or Jonas making the big game. I expect an All-Star moment at some point in their careers. Ross has potential. Kyle has too much competition.
    I still can't believe 7 years of experience combined with the difference of Bargnani last year versus what he returned as this year is not enough to quit the 'potential' talk regarding Bargnani. Potential and talent are useless without HEART, HUSTLE, or DESIRE.

    I don't have any issue with Bargnani's pick in 2006.

    Bargnani an all star? *sigh*

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Despite my opposition to Andrea being amnestied this summer, the fall-back position of his presense on this team, is the 12 million dollar amensty value in 2014. If I'm not mistaken, that's expected to be a good Free Agency year - with some serious names possible. That 12 mil wipe-out could also provide flexibility in taking back salary (for a price, of course). Especially with teams like LA, NY, or BK .... looking to clear space to acquire one of those possible Stars.


    .
    What good is 2014 free agency if the Raptors continue to lose? Bargnani has shown he is a loser in Toronto. Your plan does not guarantee a PG. The Raptors could not sign Steve Nash - it is debatable if he would have chosen Toronto over NY as well. In the end we've fast forwarded a season and a half and are in the same place the Raptors currently reside: seeking more talent.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    I think that Raptors fans need to move past Jose. He's been here for years and we've won nothing. Time to peddle his contract for future assets and let Lowry start again. All the "Jose should start" banter is not going to help anyone since Jose isn't the long-term answer, and Lowry wont if the fan base keeps crapping on him for not being Jose.

    If we traded Lowry for Russell Westbrook, fans would still complain that he doesn't pass and set up his teammates as well as Jose does.

  6. #66
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    A few more thoughts...

    1 - Why are you guys focusing on such small sample sizes for stats on Lowry? He's been healthy and starting for the Raptors for what, 2 games? Injured after that? Now off the bench?

    If you want to compare him, pull his stats from a full two years in Houston where he was able to play and not injured. That will tell you a lot more about what kind of player Lowry is than the nonsense that has gone on this year in Toronto.

    2 - I genuinely don't understand the Jose appreciation. Yes, he's a great passer. Yes, he's a pretty good shooter. No, he doesn't have a first step. No, he can't guard anyone, and in games where other PGs get shut down, it's because the Toronto bigs are helping (and Davis/Johnson can actually do that pretty well), but you wind up with other people hurting you. If you love Jose, you should also be willing to shell out $10mm per year to Reggie Evans as well, to pick a former raptor, as he's the exact same kind of player - great at one thing but very limited in many other ways. You can't build a team around that at $10mm per.

    3 - You have several years of data showing that Calderon is not going to lead this team to be a winner, and he's a free agent after the season. Why continue to start him, and why keep him instead of trading him? What positive things would this accomplish for the Raptors?

    4 - As to what you get back for Jose, yeah, $10mm in cap space alone (e.g. nothing) is actually pretty good. Granted, BC has a long history of wasting cap space (Fields, anyone?), but fire him and actually use that money to facilitate some sign and trades. To go back to Houston again, no way they would have picked up James Harden without cap space and some draft picks. Given the lack of a true franchise player in Toronto, the next best thing is to try to accumulate everything else of value in order to have the opportunity to get one.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Reinholt wrote: View Post
    A few more thoughts...

    1 - Why are you guys focusing on such small sample sizes for stats on Lowry? He's been healthy and starting for the Raptors for what, 2 games? Injured after that? Now off the bench?

    If you want to compare him, pull his stats from a full two years in Houston where he was able to play and not injured. That will tell you a lot more about what kind of player Lowry is than the nonsense that has gone on this year in Toronto.

    2 - I genuinely don't understand the Jose appreciation. Yes, he's a great passer. Yes, he's a pretty good shooter. No, he doesn't have a first step. No, he can't guard anyone, and in games where other PGs get shut down, it's because the Toronto bigs are helping (and Davis/Johnson can actually do that pretty well), but you wind up with other people hurting you. If you love Jose, you should also be willing to shell out $10mm per year to Reggie Evans as well, to pick a former raptor, as he's the exact same kind of player - great at one thing but very limited in many other ways. You can't build a team around that at $10mm per.

    3 - You have several years of data showing that Calderon is not going to lead this team to be a winner, and he's a free agent after the season. Why continue to start him, and why keep him instead of trading him? What positive things would this accomplish for the Raptors?

    4 - As to what you get back for Jose, yeah, $10mm in cap space alone (e.g. nothing) is actually pretty good. Granted, BC has a long history of wasting cap space (Fields, anyone?), but fire him and actually use that money to facilitate some sign and trades. To go back to Houston again, no way they would have picked up James Harden without cap space and some draft picks. Given the lack of a true franchise player in Toronto, the next best thing is to try to accumulate everything else of value in order to have the opportunity to get one.
    Fanboys don't believe in reason/logic/sample sizes....
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  8. #68
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    I blow it up.

    No player on this team is a superstar and this is a league where superstar-laden teams win playoff rounds. All we have are a collection of decent players that we amplify into good players because we watch and cheer for them.

    In a Gay-less scenario our ceiling is 8th-seed mediocrity. With him it's 6th-seed mediocrity. What's the point of that? Why should that excite anyone?

    This team is in no-man's land. We're short of talent. Good enough to just miss the playoffs but not bad enough to garner high lottery picks. We have some heavy contracts. Our GM is too far down his purple rabbit hole to evaluate his players objectively.


    For me, no Raptor is absolutely untouchable.

    Lowry is not a build-around guy. There are 7 years of evidence to the contrary. You can ignore the injuries, dispute with McHale, and hero-ball tendencies, but they exist. He can absolutely play basketball, but at his best is he a top-10 pg? No. Top 15? Sure. Thing is, that makes him only slightly better than average.

    JV is a rook and a young one at that. With a huge motor. I'm not sure about the footspeed or athleticism. He's a maybe and the guy I'd least likely trade. BUT, we're not in big man league anymore, so I can't get too up on his upside.

    Demar has blossomed into a very good player. Not great. Will he be an all-star? Might get one nod in his career. That's not a building block. Heavy contract.

    ED has come on this year and is the player I'd trade second last. But I'd still trade him.

    Jose, TRoss, Bargs, Amir, AA, all tradeable.

    Yeah, it's a heartless, Eeyore assessment that makes it sound like I'm not a fan. But for me it's about building an elite team and nothing else. I'm aware that there are many other factors that affect the decisions that BC makes (mostly selling tickets) but I think you have to be cognizant of the pathways that today's elite teams have been built on.

    Are we on any of those paths? No.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    It isn't a big man league anymore but having a legit center that can move and knows his game can be dominant its not a big man league but look how well Lakers did with 2 legit healthy bigs down low running the triangle its a nice couple of championships.

    having a big like Aaron Gray is useless slow no motor no offensive skillset
    having a big like a healthy Dwight Howard is

  10. #70
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Reinholt wrote: View Post
    A few more thoughts...

    1 - Why are you guys focusing on such small sample sizes for stats on Lowry? He's been healthy and starting for the Raptors for what, 2 games? Injured after that? Now off the bench?

    If you want to compare him, pull his stats from a full two years in Houston where he was able to play and not injured. That will tell you a lot more about what kind of player Lowry is than the nonsense that has gone on this year in Toronto.

    2 - I genuinely don't understand the Jose appreciation. Yes, he's a great passer. Yes, he's a pretty good shooter. No, he doesn't have a first step. No, he can't guard anyone, and in games where other PGs get shut down, it's because the Toronto bigs are helping (and Davis/Johnson can actually do that pretty well), but you wind up with other people hurting you. If you love Jose, you should also be willing to shell out $10mm per year to Reggie Evans as well, to pick a former raptor, as he's the exact same kind of player - great at one thing but very limited in many other ways. You can't build a team around that at $10mm per.

    3 - You have several years of data showing that Calderon is not going to lead this team to be a winner, and he's a free agent after the season. Why continue to start him, and why keep him instead of trading him? What positive things would this accomplish for the Raptors?

    4 - As to what you get back for Jose, yeah, $10mm in cap space alone (e.g. nothing) is actually pretty good. Granted, BC has a long history of wasting cap space (Fields, anyone?), but fire him and actually use that money to facilitate some sign and trades. To go back to Houston again, no way they would have picked up James Harden without cap space and some draft picks. Given the lack of a true franchise player in Toronto, the next best thing is to try to accumulate everything else of value in order to have the opportunity to get one.
    I don't get this marginalization of Jose that goes on here. He proves his worth time and time again yet fans always want to pass off his abilities as if they have little meaning.

    1. I'm not going to touch this much because I think Lowry is alot better than some let on. I also think Jose is much better than some say aswell though. But lets not act like Lowry is an unknown who just needs more minutes. He, much like Jose, has his strengths and weaknesses. He isn't a superstar and may never end up being an all-star. That doesn't mean he isn't a good player, but he isn't a franchise player or a guy to build around.

    2. Jose is not just a good passer, he is one of the best in the history of the league. Saying Jose is 'good' at passing is like saying Iverson or Reggie Miller were 'good' at scoring. I don't understand why the Reggie Evans comparison is being made... and I'm going to avoid their overrall contribution to a team and point out that Jose is expiring which means this team won't be paying him 10 mil a year going forward. If the team does resign him it won't be at that price. And who is asking to "build around him"?

    Besides that I want to repeat something I've said many times. Teams defenses start with big men. This team has shown time and again it can have a good defense with Jose starting, and a bad defense when he doesn't. Its the bigs that make the difference, and this isn't going to change if its Lowry, Lucas or Jose starting.

    3. This team hasn't won for the last 4 years with Jose. But over that time they've also been stuck with Bargnani starting, Colangelo making foolish short term moves and Jose often taken out of the starting line up or challenged for the role of starter. Jose has never been 'the man' on this team, or the key player or whatever. He happened to be a good player on a bad team. He's not a difference maker but was also never expected to be. Jose is a free agent this offseason, but why does that mean immediately trade him? Offer him a reasonable contract and see where things go from there. His game lends itself to a long shelf life, he makes players around him better, he is highly efficient and he offers leadership, experience and a model for future players.

    I'm not against trading Jose, or starting Lowry or neither. But this idea that Lowry 'has to be the starter' while Jose has to go is lost to me.

    Lets not forget, what ensures Lowry will remain here after his contract? And at what price? What about his numerous injuries over the years? At the very least his head down bull in a China shop style leads to a greater likelyhood of missing time. This team does lack a franchise player, and if Lowry is the best player, or one of the best players, does that not mean he is also the most likely to help net the peices necessary to obtain a franchise player? You bring up Houston and what they did, but lets remember, they are the ones that let Lowry go......

  11. #71
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I don't get this marginalization of Jose that goes on here. He proves his worth time and time again yet fans always want to pass off his abilities as if they have little meaning.

    1. I'm not going to touch this much because I think Lowry is alot better than some let on. I also think Jose is much better than some say aswell though. But lets not act like Lowry is an unknown who just needs more minutes. He, much like Jose, has his strengths and weaknesses. He isn't a superstar and may never end up being an all-star. That doesn't mean he isn't a good player, but he isn't a franchise player or a guy to build around.

    2. Jose is not just a good passer, he is one of the best in the history of the league. Saying Jose is 'good' at passing is like saying Iverson or Reggie Miller were 'good' at scoring. I don't understand why the Reggie Evans comparison is being made... and I'm going to avoid their overrall contribution to a team and point out that Jose is expiring which means this team won't be paying him 10 mil a year going forward. If the team does resign him it won't be at that price. And who is asking to "build around him"?

    Besides that I want to repeat something I've said many times. Teams defenses start with big men. This team has shown time and again it can have a good defense with Jose starting, and a bad defense when he doesn't. Its the bigs that make the difference, and this isn't going to change if its Lowry, Lucas or Jose starting.
    My thoughts:

    1 - Jose is not that good. He's in the bottom half of starting PGs in the league. I can definitely name 16 PGs that I would take over Jose if I was starting a team today. Plus, he's definitely overpaid.

    2 - I would qualify Jose as a very good passer, not a great passer. You see significantly more offensive efficiency out of him, but you don't see him create opportunities out of thin air with his passing, or the exploitation of chinks in the armor of the defense that others did not even know existed that you can with some of the greats. I don't use great lightly, but if you want great passers, I would look at Stockton, Magic, and Nash as a few examples. Jose is very good, but not in that class (partially because he lacks either the size or athleticism to create the opportunities to pass that some of those guys had).

    3 - Either way, the reason for the Reggie Evans comparison is this: Reggie is a very good rebounder, and a solid if unspectacular defender. He's also useless on offense (I live in Brooklyn and I see plenty of him this season, it's almost comical at times). Jose is that same player in reverse: he's a very good passer, a solid if unspectacular shooter. He's also useless on defense. So it's the inverse of Reggie - a player with some very high end skills, but also glaring limitations. The usual place for these guys in the NBA on solid playoff teams is either the bench, or as your 5th most important starter where you really need that one skill.

    4 - Defenses don't start anywhere; it is a team effort. If team defense started with the bigs, there would be no way to explain the success that the GSW are having this season, because David Lee and Carl Landry aren't locking down anyone. Having a solid scheme, having all five players be able to execute within that scheme, and having a balance of perimeter defense and interior defense is what makes a defensive scheme tick when you reach the top levels of defense. Yes, exceptional backline players can cover for the weakness of front line players (Tim Duncan and Tyson Chandler, to name a pair), but however good that defense is, it would be even better with stronger perimeter defenders. If some NBA team were somehow able to roll out a Rajon Rondo-Tony Allen-Shane Battier-Kevin Garnett-Tyson Chandler defensive lineup this season, we could legitimately see a team score less than 50 points in an NBA game if the ball bounced their way. Throw in Calderon for one of those guys, and you're still going to have a very good defensive team, but it will take a step back. My point is that, on defense, the contributions of any one player have a knock on effect (for better or worse) to the rest of the team. Exceptional perimeter defenders make the bigs look better, and exceptional bigs make the perimeter defense look better. Take any one player and make them a weak link, and it reverberates throughout the system.

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    3. This team hasn't won for the last 4 years with Jose. But over that time they've also been stuck with Bargnani starting, Colangelo making foolish short term moves and Jose often taken out of the starting line up or challenged for the role of starter. Jose has never been 'the man' on this team, or the key player or whatever. He happened to be a good player on a bad team. He's not a difference maker but was also never expected to be. Jose is a free agent this offseason, but why does that mean immediately trade him? Offer him a reasonable contract and see where things go from there. His game lends itself to a long shelf life, he makes players around him better, he is highly efficient and he offers leadership, experience and a model for future players.

    I'm not against trading Jose, or starting Lowry or neither. But this idea that Lowry 'has to be the starter' while Jose has to go is lost to me.

    Lets not forget, what ensures Lowry will remain here after his contract? And at what price? What about his numerous injuries over the years? At the very least his head down bull in a China shop style leads to a greater likelyhood of missing time. This team does lack a franchise player, and if Lowry is the best player, or one of the best players, does that not mean he is also the most likely to help net the peices necessary to obtain a franchise player? You bring up Houston and what they did, but lets remember, they are the ones that let Lowry go......
    1 - I don't think Jose is a good player, I just think he's a not bad player, because his limitations force you into things that you might not have to do with a less limited player. In the case of the Raptors, his greatest strength (passing) is the weakness of the rest of the team, so you have more value there than you would in some other contexts. I mean, as a thought experiment, how many teams would swap starting PGs with the Raptors for Jose? So trade him. Why? Because I'd rather have something than nothing. If he's leaving after the season (because signing a PG on the wrong side of 30 who plays poor defense makes no sense for a young team trying to build towards the playoffs), why not get something for him, as long as the something you can get has value? If nobody will trade you anything other than garbage, let him walk and take the cap space.

    2 - Start Lowry for a year, see what he can do with this team, and if it doesn't work, trade him next year. The reason for the "must keep Lowry"