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  • Take other teams sh!t for prospects & picks

    20 46.51%
  • Keep doing what we are doing. We already have talent!

    11 25.58%
  • Time to accelerate the plan and go get a player such as Gay.

    11 25.58%
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    1 2.33%
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Thread: Revisited: Blow it up..... Seriously?? (Part 2)

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Denver perhaps in a deal involving Chandler? Then again, Bargnani's laziness will be magnified given the thin Colorado air
    Now I also have comfort knowing that I am not the only lacking objectivity these days
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #82
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Now I also have comfort knowing that I am not the only lacking objectivity these days
    I thought I was being objective. Bargnani is a lazy bum...it says so on his birth certificate. I don't mess around with official documents.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #83
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The bold gives me comfort. I struggle to think of a couple of teams that would want him but by now it is pretty clear I am no longer objective.
    Yes, that is abundantly clear and not just on the Bargnani issue. But you're a fan(atical) and anything other than strong opinions coming from you would disappoint me.

    About taking on bad contracts. Can you specify what is the maximum duration of a really bad contract you would take?

    Also, you said Kyle Lowry as part of the core. Kyle Lowry, if he is to be part of the core after the blowup, needs a contract extension. How much is he worth in your opinion.

    Same question of Ed Davis. I am really happy Ed Davis has developed a mid range shot. Last summer I wrote ED made strides in finding open spots in 2011-12 but never did I expect him to improve his mid range shooting so quickly. Kudos to him! I still don't project him as a quality-starter player but I like him better as 3rd big / spot starter.

    The reasons I am asking is I don't understand what blowing it up is trying to accomplish other than a shuffling of the pieces until the Raptors are lucky enough to hit the jackpot on a pick. I'd rather not adopt such a strategy.

    Take Cleveland for example. It's clear they position themselves to be competitive in 2014-15 when the accumulation of draft picks and cap space. There are also rumors LeBron will resign with the Cavaliers in summer 2014 but I am uncertain whether I am happy about that. I don't want him back if it is to go back to his Cleveland days when way, way too many decisions were made upon what LeBron wants, not what is good for the team. It is Kyrie's team now and he has a good chance to become something really special if he can learn to play even passable defense.

  4. #84
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Denver perhaps in a deal involving Chandler? Then again, Bargnani's laziness will be magnified given the thin Colorado air
    Denver would be a surprising destination for Bargnani considering the Nuggets traded away Nene last summer and moved forward with Faried as their starting power forward.

  5. #85
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Yes, that is abundantly clear and not just on the Bargnani issue. But you're a fan(atical) and anything other than strong opinions coming from you would disappoint me.

    About taking on bad contracts. Can you specify what is the maximum duration of a really bad contract you would take?

    Also, you said Kyle Lowry as part of the core. Kyle Lowry, if he is to be part of the core after the blowup, needs a contract extension. How much is he worth in your opinion.

    Same question of Ed Davis. I am really happy Ed Davis has developed a mid range shot. Last summer I wrote ED made strides in finding open spots in 2011-12 but never did I expect him to improve his mid range shooting so quickly. Kudos to him! I still don't project him as a quality-starter player but I like him better as 3rd big / spot starter.

    The reasons I am asking is I don't understand what blowing it up is trying to accomplish other than a shuffling of the pieces until the Raptors are lucky enough to hit the jackpot on a pick. I'd rather not adopt such a strategy.

    Take Cleveland for example. It's clear they position themselves to be competitive in 2014-15 when the accumulation of draft picks and cap space. There are also rumors LeBron will resign with the Cavaliers in summer 2014 but I am uncertain whether I am happy about that. I don't want him back if it is to go back to his Cleveland days when way, way too many decisions were made upon what LeBron wants, not what is good for the team. It is Kyrie's team now and he has a good chance to become something really special if he can learn to play even passable defense.
    Max length contract: 3 years (2 after this season) but there would have to be some 1st round picks coming with it.

    Lowry worth: Tough question but the answer is driven by the fact I don't perceive him to be a backup whereas many do. He is widely regarded as a value contract in the league (~$6M). Looking at Jameer Nelson getting $8.6M, Lin avg $8.3M, Dragic at $7.5M, Holiday at $10M..... I would think $8M is reasonable with anything over DeMar money ($9.5M) excessive.

    ED worth: not sure. Ask me again next year. Right now he is worth his contract. Hopefully BC doesn't blow his load again and sign a huge contract before restricted free agency begins.

    As for Cleveland's approach, yes, that is exactly what I want the Raptors to do. Irving was actually the Clippers pick. Was it probable? No. Did they have more of a chance getting a top talent acquiring Davis than by not? Yes. Had the balls feel as the percentages dictated, the Cavs still could have looked forward to Kemba, Knight, Leonard, Klay Thompson. The draft, especially it is probably the thing BC does best, is the way to go at this point. What I like about taking sh!t contracts for picks is that the contracts don't need to play and the Raps already have a young team. Those contracts can be traded in a year or two once the really punitive luxury tax kicks in or they can hit free agency before they have to start doling out their own extensions.

    You might not like Cleveland's approach but as a Raptor fan, I'd love to see a roster of young talent headlined by Kyrie Irving be joined by someone with LBJ's skill via free agency.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #86
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    Just a precision; I am very happy with Cleveland's approach with the possible exception of resigning LeBron. LeBron had way too much power and influence on decisions in his tenure in Cleveland, and that circus has hopefully moved on never to return.

    Stuff like interrupting a coach's interview to tell reporters King James was now ready to receive them were common occurrences. His entourage had access to the locker room and other privileges never seen before. Just nuts.

  7. #87
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    - Jose won't propel Toronto into contender status, and neither will Lowry. However either can be useful and good quality players on a contending team. The question needs to be who can play longer, who will be more useful, who will be a more valuable contract in the long run, and who will add the most to the team. And that to me is not an easy answer.

    - Lowry has been in this league long enough to have a very good idea of what you have with him. To know his strengths and his weaknesses. In fact he only has one less year experience than Jose and his career has run quite parrallel to Jose's. Moving in and out of starting roles, being moved from teams (although with Jose it was attempts to move him), finding significant roles on losing and mediocre teams. He is not a rookie or a young player getting his first crack into a line up.
    I think you hit the nail on the head here. Regardless of what we think of one or the other, it makes no sense at all to keep both. If BC isn't seriously shopping around for deals for either one of them, then he's an even bigger fool than I thought he was.

    On the one hand, you have a guy that the team has been trying to replace the whole time, who is good at running this team. But the reality of it is that this team sucks, and although if we keep playing at this level we might squeak out a playoff spot, we're not going anywhere. On the other hand you have this other guy who keeps getting replaced after injury, but is pretty talented and doesn't fit on this team. The team that needs to get blown up. So on that note I do understand Reinholdt and Matt's vision of keeping Lowry at least another year, even if I don't think he's that good to begin with.

    To put it bluntly, I support keeping Lowry if and only if this team gets blown up.

    If not and BC decides to keep a lot of these scraps, then to keep this a watchable team we should ask Jose politely if he'll sign a new contract before we trade him. And if he's willing to take it, trade Lowry because everyone seems to think he is (apparently a triple double threat) really good.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Just a precision; I am very happy with Cleveland's approach with the possible exception of resigning LeBron. LeBron had way too much power and influence on decisions in his tenure in Cleveland, and that circus has hopefully moved on never to return.

    Stuff like interrupting a coach's interview to tell reporters King James was now ready to receive them were common occurrences. His entourage had access to the locker room and other privileges never seen before. Just nuts.
    I agree that is ridiculous but those were behaviours the former coach, former GM, and current ownership permitted to happen.

    I don't think Byron Scott would tolerate such behaviour.

    Also, I can only hope that the last 3 years has taught him some valuable lessons in life and humility. Maybe I am naive and he has learned nothing, I don't know.

    But the approach Cleveland is taking is exactly what I want to see the Raptors do. Take on sh!t contracts, draft-draft-draft, and hope the young talent become stars or hope the young talent can be traded in combination with trading of expiring contracts and free agency to acquire star talent.

    I hope this makes sense. My 9 month old is whacking away at the keyboard.... time to go spend some none screen time with her.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Jan 15th, 2013 at 03:58 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #89
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    My notes:

    1 - I agree that keeping Lowry necessitates blowing it up. The bigs that Toronto has probably play fine with him, but the wings are a desolate wasteland devoid of life, skill, or the ability to score points. With that said, that's true with Lowry or without, which is why I support blowing it up period, especially on the wings.

    2 - Lowry was one of three players posting a 15/5/5. The other two were Westbrook and LeBron. I'm not saying he has the talent of either of those guys (he's actually similar to a poor man's Westbrook in some ways, though), but that's not chopped liver. There's nobody else on the Raptors that could get into a discussion with Westbrook and Lebron.

    So if the goal is to barely compete for a playoff spot, keep JC. But if you want to try to build a contender, I think your only options are to keep KL, JV, ED, and maybe Ross and build off that, or even jettison KL alongside JC if you don't think he's the answer.

    But that's basically it: if you want a team that is going to have a chance to be better than boringly mediocre, trading JC is a necessary first step.

  10. #90
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Reinholt wrote: View Post
    My notes:

    1 - I agree that keeping Lowry necessitates blowing it up. The bigs that Toronto has probably play fine with him, but the wings are a desolate wasteland devoid of life, skill, or the ability to score points. With that said, that's true with Lowry or without, which is why I support blowing it up period, especially on the wings.

    2 - Lowry was one of three players posting a 15/5/5. The other two were Westbrook and LeBron. I'm not saying he has the talent of either of those guys (he's actually similar to a poor man's Westbrook in some ways, though), but that's not chopped liver. There's nobody else on the Raptors that could get into a discussion with Westbrook and Lebron.

    So if the goal is to barely compete for a playoff spot, keep JC. But if you want to try to build a contender, I think your only options are to keep KL, JV, ED, and maybe Ross and build off that, or even jettison KL alongside JC if you don't think he's the answer.

    But that's basically it: if you want a team that is going to have a chance to be better than boringly mediocre, trading JC is a necessary first step.
    I can agree somewhat with this.

    I personally think that we should offer Jose a reasonable contract and if he says no, TRADE HIM before the deadline. I would personally trade Lowry as its clear from all the posts on RR that most thinks he's our best player.

    I would consider keeping the youngsters (players under 25 years old). This will assure we lose enough to get something out of the future drafts. I would look to get a first round pick in 2013 or 2014 (at the very least) for Lowry.

    I'll admit that i was also okay with going after a SF, but since that doesnt look like its going to happen.....we should likely take the BLOW IT UP approach....

    p.s. I think the only way we blow this up is if BC gets his walking papers after the season. The fans and ownership will have the patience to allow a new GM to do it right this time.

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    From Alex Kennedy at HoopsWorld.com:

    Toronto Raptors

    The Raptors have been mentioned in trade rumors since the beginning of the season because they have several players that they’re looking to move. Andrea Bargnani hasn’t lived up to the hype and he failed to become the franchise player that Toronto expected him to be. In fact, the Raptors have played better at times when Bargnani wasn’t on the court. Jose Calderon and Kyle Lowry are the other two players that the Raptors will likely shop. They’ll likely trade one or the other before the deadline. Lowry has come back down to earth after playing extremely well early in the season and he has had trouble staying healthy. Calderon, on the other hand, is an unrestricted free agent after this season and will likely walk if he’s not given the starting job. The Raptors will likely have to trade one or the other because their point-guard-by-committee plan hasn’t worked. Trade Lowry and re-sign Calderon as the starter. Trade Calderon and insert Lowry back into the starting lineup. Either way, Toronto has to trade one because it doesn’t make sense to have two starting-caliber point guards on the roster when they have many other holes that need to be filled. The Raptors are definitely a team to watch as the deadline approaches.

    Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-pm-who...QM7m5rvyeHs.99
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #92
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    From Alex Kennedy at HoopsWorld.com:
    Makes sense, I mostly agree. But I don't think BC is shopping Lowry. Maybe he's listening to offers, but I doubt he's shopping him the way he is with Jose

  13. #93
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Shock: I am in the boat advocating trade Calderon.


    Take a look at the 2013 free agents: http://www.hoopsworld.com/2013-nba-free-agents
    Who is coming to Toronto? Jefferson? No. Smith? No. Millsap? I wish but he is going to Indiana: book it. And when I say they aren't coming to Toronto it is not because of any small market/blame Canada/no ESPN/funny money/metric system excuses. It is because Toronto is still not showing they are on the track of winning. Top free agents are looking for money and a chance to win. Toronto is not going to have a lot of money to throw around as of now and while things are looking better now that Casey is preaching some defense again, there is a long way to go to respectability. Toronto's free agent prospects are going to be guys looking for MLE action, players like Dorrell Wright or Corey Brewer.


    This trade is a good example of what I am talking about when I say, "Blow it up!" and "Take other teams sh!t for prospects and picks!"

    In doing a trade like this Toronto is taking themselves out of contention for the big free agent prizes but they are adding the type of assets I would be looking to acquire. Everyone's trades with Utah have Millsap or Jefferson coming back. I don't think that is going to happen. First off, Jefferson is going to be resigned. Secondly, Millsap is going to be in Indiana on a sign and trade for Granger (my 100% total speculation - both players fit the other teams like a glove right now, West is a FA and Millsap is 5 years younger than West who will fit beautifully with George at SF and Hibbert at C.... but back to the Raptors). Utah needs a PG right now so here goes:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d4om3op

    Utah: Calderon, 2 second round picks over next 2 drafts
    Toronto: Williams, Burks, 2013 1st round pick from GSW and UTA (top 3 protected).

    Why?

    Utah sheds $7.5M in an unspectacular wing who is going to pick up his player option for next year. This helps in resigning Jefferson and possibly resigning Millsap or taking on big salary in a trade (say, like, for Granger). They gain a starting PG and make a run at the playoffs which they are currently 0.5 games out of 8th and 2.5 games out of 6th.

    Toronto gets a legit SF who can play PF in small ball in Williams. He isn't great but he is no worse than anything currently on the roster and a big step up from Kleiza (amnesty!). Williams will also be in a contract year which is always good for a 26/27 year old who does have talent. He is then another expiring contract next season when the more punitive luxury tax is going to kick in. Burks is a player who skill set is what Toronto lacks: a guy who can penetrate and get to the hole off the bounce. Utah is trying to make Burks a PG which I think is futile.

    The draft picks are self explanatory. Maybe the 2 first round picks (13-18 and 20-25) are greedy but they are getting 2 fairly high 2nd round picks in return, shedding $7.5M off their books, and getting a starting PG.


    Anyways, this is the type of trade I am hoping/expecting/looking for Toronto make. Bad contract, prospect, pick(s).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #94
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    After last nights game against the Nets I have a few more thoughts:

    I was never off the "its a talent issue" idea, bust just want to reiterate: THIS TEAM LACKS TALENT! IT IS A TALENT ISSUE!

    The Raptors go 10 deep with 10 mediocre NBA players. When they show the starting lineups on tv, when do the Raps ever have the better player at even 1 position? Rarely.

    I couldn't escape the fact that this team reminded me of the NY Knicks pre-Melo, and have states such. 10 players that together COULD gel and play well, but none really stand out. If you package a bunch of them, you could recieve 1 all-star or borderline all-star. Now however, I can't shake the idea that this team might be a combination of NY Knicks pre-Melo, and the Pacers pre-David West (A couple of keeper, complimentary pieces. Rarely a FA destination). If the Raps could trade Davis, one of the PGs, and Demar (or a package similar) for an above average wing player, I would definitely do it. Even if they traded that package for a bloated contract that has a #1 pick attached to it I'd be ok with that! Come to think of it, if the Raps traded for a good wing, then signed West as a FA, wouldn't that make them loads better? I just think there has to be changes. Staying static with what hasn't led to wins (Bargs, Calderon, and to a lesser extent Derozan) and a bunch of middling players isn't going to help.

    The biggest change of all HAS to be getting rid of Colangelo too. Don't let the easy part of the schedule that gifted the Raps a 10-2 record fool you. I won't list his "accomplishments" here. Again, I point you to Matt52's avatar. It says almost everything you need to know.

    And as for anyone thinking the Raptors can make the playoffs? Lets not be silly. I'm a FAN, I want them to make the playoffs. But it ain't happening. Right now they're 14-24, and they had to play 8 games over .500 to get to that. To get to the playoffs they'll need to be right around .500 at the finish. Anyone really think they'll be able to play another 10 games over .500 as the season gets a little harder again? Me neither.

  15. #95
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    From Alex Kennedy at HoopsWorld.com:
    The problem with moving the PGs is: first, Calderon has been on the block for years and they haven't been able, or willing to do so for the return, to move him. Lowry just was brought in at the expense of a top ten pick. If he is traded they need to get that kind of value back. Think anyone gives up a lotto pick for Lowry in the next month?

    The Raptors may have players they want to move, I'm just not sure they can get enough value in return for any of them.

  16. #96
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The problem with moving the PGs is: first, Calderon has been on the block for years and they haven't been able, or willing to do so for the return, to move him. Lowry just was brought in at the expense of a top ten pick. If he is traded they need to get that kind of value back. Think anyone gives up a lotto pick for Lowry in the next month?

    The Raptors may have players they want to move, I'm just not sure they can get enough value in return for any of them.
    Well, that's kind of the whole issue with Colangelo overpaying and overbidding against himself all the time. You can't expect us to get better value or equal value in return for all the mistakes he's made. Just have to cut your losses and move on.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  17. #97
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The problem with moving the PGs is: first, Calderon has been on the block for years and they haven't been able, or willing to do so for the return, to move him. Lowry just was brought in at the expense of a top ten pick. If he is traded they need to get that kind of value back. Think anyone gives up a lotto pick for Lowry in the next month?

    The Raptors may have players they want to move, I'm just not sure they can get enough value in return for any of them.
    The issue with Calderon was always his contract. Now it is expiring with less than half this year to be paid (well, by deadline). The trade I proposed above would have the Raps taking on a bad contract to get a prospect and picks. For a team with playoff aspirations and in need of a PG, Calderon is pretty enticing.... *cough*UTAH*cough*
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  18. #98
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    I think last night's game against the Bulls really demonstrates Matt's earlier comment that Lowry is a better talent, while Jose works better with less.

    Against the Bulls last night, Jose and most of the team was quite useless. They don't have the talent to compete against an elite team defence like the Bulls and so they struggled to do anything.

    When Lowry was in the game, he was taking it at the Bulls and was the main reason they were in the game. (AA had a great game and was aggressive too) Lowry is a better talent and that is necessary to compete against the best.

    One thing that drove me nuts last night, Lowry would drive to the hoop, even drawing double teams, and the rest of the Raps would stand around on the perimeter. Not a single player cut to the hoop, even though Lowry was getting doubled on the baseline. Anyone who cuts to the hoop gets hit with the pass and an easy dunk for 2 points, but the team just stood around and watched.

  19. #99
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    Default Matt52 may be right (surprisingly doesnt hurt to say it)

    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think last night's game against the Bulls really demonstrates Matt's earlier comment that Lowry is a better talent, while Jose works better with less.

    Against the Bulls last night, Jose and most of the team was quite useless. They don't have the talent to compete against an elite team defence like the Bulls and so they struggled to do anything.

    When Lowry was in the game, he was taking it at the Bulls and was the main reason they were in the game. (AA had a great game and was aggressive too) Lowry is a better talent and that is necessary to compete against the best.

    One thing that drove me nuts last night, Lowry would drive to the hoop, even drawing double teams, and the rest of the Raps would stand around on the perimeter. Not a single player cut to the hoop, even though Lowry was getting doubled on the baseline. Anyone who cuts to the hoop gets hit with the pass and an easy dunk for 2 points, but the team just stood around and watched.
    After watching the past two games.......

    I must admit that Matt52 is on the right track (you too Nilanka - even though we disagree with your assesment of DD). We need to give Lowry more time as he's clearly the better talent and just needs more help (needs to be surrounded by more talent).

    I am not the type of person to change my mind with each passing game....BUT I can't ignore the truth. Lowry's heart is incredible.....he's what we need moving forward.

    Before this week i was fine with either....now i'm sticking with Lowry. This is not a slight on Jose, because i think he's a really good player for us. BUT...

    I am extremely impressed with how Lowry has handled coming off the bench and I think he deserves to be the starting point guard from here on out. I just dont think THIS team can afford to have a talented player like him playing so-so minutes. He needs to play 30+ minutes a game and he should be setting the tone.

    We need Jose to play great off the bench......NOT like he played earlier in the year off the bench. NO excuses!! Get it done.

  20. #100
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think last night's game against the Bulls really demonstrates Matt's earlier comment that Lowry is a better talent, while Jose works better with less.

    Against the Bulls last night, Jose and most of the team was quite useless. They don't have the talent to compete against an elite team defence like the Bulls and so they struggled to do anything.

    When Lowry was in the game, he was taking it at the Bulls and was the main reason they were in the game. (AA had a great game and was aggressive too) Lowry is a better talent and that is necessary to compete against the best.

    One thing that drove me nuts last night, Lowry would drive to the hoop, even drawing double teams, and the rest of the Raps would stand around on the perimeter. Not a single player cut to the hoop, even though Lowry was getting doubled on the baseline. Anyone who cuts to the hoop gets hit with the pass and an easy dunk for 2 points, but the team just stood around and watched.
    You can really see with AA's skill set how important it is to be able to create off the dribble. For the life of me I can't believe how he 1) gets by his man, and 2) gets his shot in the lane against NBA competition (actually, joking, I do know: he has great change of pace, handle, and body control). I don't mean to put AA down but he really is not what I would call an athletic player.... skilled and intelligent, yes; athletic, no.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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