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Revisited: Blow it up..... Seriously?? (Part 2)

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  • #76
    special1 wrote: View Post
    You bring up some pretty good points.....I feel the same way.

    I'm good with either PG, but i dont think Lowry is THAT much of a difference maker (when you factor in his injuries due to the style of play and also THIS TEAM - which clearly plays better with Jose's style). I think Trading Lowry will net you a better piece than Jose right now. I too would offer Jose a reasonable contract and convert him to a backup/mentor role as he gets older.....Do i know if Jose wants to stay?? Of course not, but i would offer him a contract and if he says no, then trade him before the deadline.

    Its time for Raptor Fans to start accepting that Jose is better than we give him credit. He gets EVERYONE involved and is the perfect PG for this team and situation. If we can get an elite/really good SF and backup C to compliment Jose, DD, ED, Amir, JV and we should have a team that will be able to compete with the better teams in the league.
    DD, ED, Amir and JV all need a player like Jose to get them the ball. They're incapable of creating scoring opportunities alone.

    That's more a knock on DD, ED, Amir and JV, than praise for Calderon. All our of "core" players have big holes in their games.

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    • #77
      Reinholt wrote: View Post
      So I think Toronto is in this situation:

      - They know Calderon is not going to propel them to contender status.
      - They honestly don't know what they have in Lowry (maybe he is better than Calderon, maybe he is worse).
      - They should have figured out that Bargnani is part of the problem and not part of the solution.

      So what do they have to lose by giving Lowry a shot? Maybe you have nothing and maybe you have an asset, but I would argue it's better to trade Calderon for what you can get and find out what you have with Lowry than the reverse.
      That is a nice summary of how I feel too. I'd be fine if the team traded them both if it brought back high level talent, but I just happen to think that Lowry can play at a near triple-double a night level, so it would be better to let him play.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • #78
        Reinholt wrote: View Post
        So I think Toronto is in this situation:

        - They know Calderon is not going to propel them to contender status.
        - They honestly don't know what they have in Lowry (maybe he is better than Calderon, maybe he is worse).
        - They should have figured out that Bargnani is part of the problem and not part of the solution.

        So what do they have to lose by giving Lowry a shot? Maybe you have nothing and maybe you have an asset, but I would argue it's better to trade Calderon for what you can get and find out what you have with Lowry than the reverse.
        Its fine to like Lowry more or think he's the better player, I personally don't agree with it (I think the are very close in calibre, although near mirror opposites in style) but I can appreciate it. However:

        - Jose won't propel Toronto into contender status, and neither will Lowry. However either can be useful and good quality players on a contending team. The question needs to be who can play longer, who will be more useful, who will be a more valuable contract in the long run, and who will add the most to the team. And that to me is not an easy answer.

        - Lowry has been in this league long enough to have a very good idea of what you have with him. To know his strengths and his weaknesses. In fact he only has one less year experience than Jose and his career has run quite parrallel to Jose's. Moving in and out of starting roles, being moved from teams (although with Jose it was attempts to move him), finding significant roles on losing and mediocre teams. He is not a rookie or a young player getting his first crack into a line up.
        - completely agree

        As for the last paragraph I can't help but question it. The team does have something to lose by "giving Lowry a shot". A starting calibre PG in Jose, whatever Lowry's trade value is, perhaps having a starting PG in 2 years time, cap space if the team needs to resign him at a premium. Moving Jose and/or making Lowry the starting PG isn't, and shouldn't be, a black and white issue. There are risks and rewards to both.

        But i do agree that a decision does need to be made as to which way the team would like to go, and I think both are fair options. Trying to replace Jose was always a waste of time and resources, and now running two starting calibre PGs on a bad to mediocre team with numerous holes is a continual waste of the same.
        Last edited by Craiger; Tue Jan 15, 2013, 01:50 PM.

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        • #79
          Andrea Bargnani, Toronto
          16.0ppg 4.3rpg 0.7bpg 12.43 PER

          The Toronto Raptors want to trade Andrea Bargnani, so that’s likely going to happen. The question remains what do they get back for him and who takes on his contract?

          A small survey of league executives showed very little upside to Bargnani, but at the same time he is still a player some teams think highly of. His current injury, his work ethic and his lackadaisical approach are huge red flags that will impact value, but there is a sense that a couple of teams would take the chance on Bargnani if the price were right.

          So here is the game of it, how long does Toronto hold on to him before they blink and part ways? The other question is what do the Raptors do with Jose Calderon?

          Combined, both players represent a huge chunk of salary changing hands and the return even at “discounted prices” could yield a lot.

          There is no doubt that Toronto is being aggressive in the marketplace, the question is what will they get back for Bargnani and can he get back on the court before the trade deadline and prove concerns about his health wrong.

          Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-nba...ufWK0jskjQh.99
          The bold gives me comfort. I struggle to think of a couple of teams that would want him but by now it is pretty clear I am no longer objective.

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          • #80
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            The bold gives me comfort. I struggle to think of a couple of teams that would want him but by now it is pretty clear I am no longer objective.
            Denver perhaps in a deal involving Chandler? Then again, Bargnani's laziness will be magnified given the thin Colorado air

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            • #81
              Nilanka wrote: View Post
              Denver perhaps in a deal involving Chandler? Then again, Bargnani's laziness will be magnified given the thin Colorado air
              Now I also have comfort knowing that I am not the only lacking objectivity these days

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              • #82
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Now I also have comfort knowing that I am not the only lacking objectivity these days
                I thought I was being objective. Bargnani is a lazy bum...it says so on his birth certificate. I don't mess around with official documents.

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                • #83
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  The bold gives me comfort. I struggle to think of a couple of teams that would want him but by now it is pretty clear I am no longer objective.
                  Yes, that is abundantly clear and not just on the Bargnani issue. But you're a fan(atical) and anything other than strong opinions coming from you would disappoint me.

                  About taking on bad contracts. Can you specify what is the maximum duration of a really bad contract you would take?

                  Also, you said Kyle Lowry as part of the core. Kyle Lowry, if he is to be part of the core after the blowup, needs a contract extension. How much is he worth in your opinion.

                  Same question of Ed Davis. I am really happy Ed Davis has developed a mid range shot. Last summer I wrote ED made strides in finding open spots in 2011-12 but never did I expect him to improve his mid range shooting so quickly. Kudos to him! I still don't project him as a quality-starter player but I like him better as 3rd big / spot starter.

                  The reasons I am asking is I don't understand what blowing it up is trying to accomplish other than a shuffling of the pieces until the Raptors are lucky enough to hit the jackpot on a pick. I'd rather not adopt such a strategy.

                  Take Cleveland for example. It's clear they position themselves to be competitive in 2014-15 when the accumulation of draft picks and cap space. There are also rumors LeBron will resign with the Cavaliers in summer 2014 but I am uncertain whether I am happy about that. I don't want him back if it is to go back to his Cleveland days when way, way too many decisions were made upon what LeBron wants, not what is good for the team. It is Kyrie's team now and he has a good chance to become something really special if he can learn to play even passable defense.

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                  • #84
                    Nilanka wrote: View Post
                    Denver perhaps in a deal involving Chandler? Then again, Bargnani's laziness will be magnified given the thin Colorado air
                    Denver would be a surprising destination for Bargnani considering the Nuggets traded away Nene last summer and moved forward with Faried as their starting power forward.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                      Yes, that is abundantly clear and not just on the Bargnani issue. But you're a fan(atical) and anything other than strong opinions coming from you would disappoint me.

                      About taking on bad contracts. Can you specify what is the maximum duration of a really bad contract you would take?

                      Also, you said Kyle Lowry as part of the core. Kyle Lowry, if he is to be part of the core after the blowup, needs a contract extension. How much is he worth in your opinion.

                      Same question of Ed Davis. I am really happy Ed Davis has developed a mid range shot. Last summer I wrote ED made strides in finding open spots in 2011-12 but never did I expect him to improve his mid range shooting so quickly. Kudos to him! I still don't project him as a quality-starter player but I like him better as 3rd big / spot starter.

                      The reasons I am asking is I don't understand what blowing it up is trying to accomplish other than a shuffling of the pieces until the Raptors are lucky enough to hit the jackpot on a pick. I'd rather not adopt such a strategy.

                      Take Cleveland for example. It's clear they position themselves to be competitive in 2014-15 when the accumulation of draft picks and cap space. There are also rumors LeBron will resign with the Cavaliers in summer 2014 but I am uncertain whether I am happy about that. I don't want him back if it is to go back to his Cleveland days when way, way too many decisions were made upon what LeBron wants, not what is good for the team. It is Kyrie's team now and he has a good chance to become something really special if he can learn to play even passable defense.
                      Max length contract: 3 years (2 after this season) but there would have to be some 1st round picks coming with it.

                      Lowry worth: Tough question but the answer is driven by the fact I don't perceive him to be a backup whereas many do. He is widely regarded as a value contract in the league (~$6M). Looking at Jameer Nelson getting $8.6M, Lin avg $8.3M, Dragic at $7.5M, Holiday at $10M..... I would think $8M is reasonable with anything over DeMar money ($9.5M) excessive.

                      ED worth: not sure. Ask me again next year. Right now he is worth his contract. Hopefully BC doesn't blow his load again and sign a huge contract before restricted free agency begins.

                      As for Cleveland's approach, yes, that is exactly what I want the Raptors to do. Irving was actually the Clippers pick. Was it probable? No. Did they have more of a chance getting a top talent acquiring Davis than by not? Yes. Had the balls feel as the percentages dictated, the Cavs still could have looked forward to Kemba, Knight, Leonard, Klay Thompson. The draft, especially it is probably the thing BC does best, is the way to go at this point. What I like about taking sh!t contracts for picks is that the contracts don't need to play and the Raps already have a young team. Those contracts can be traded in a year or two once the really punitive luxury tax kicks in or they can hit free agency before they have to start doling out their own extensions.

                      You might not like Cleveland's approach but as a Raptor fan, I'd love to see a roster of young talent headlined by Kyrie Irving be joined by someone with LBJ's skill via free agency.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Just a precision; I am very happy with Cleveland's approach with the possible exception of resigning LeBron. LeBron had way too much power and influence on decisions in his tenure in Cleveland, and that circus has hopefully moved on never to return.

                        Stuff like interrupting a coach's interview to tell reporters King James was now ready to receive them were common occurrences. His entourage had access to the locker room and other privileges never seen before. Just nuts.

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                        • #87
                          Craiger wrote: View Post
                          - Jose won't propel Toronto into contender status, and neither will Lowry. However either can be useful and good quality players on a contending team. The question needs to be who can play longer, who will be more useful, who will be a more valuable contract in the long run, and who will add the most to the team. And that to me is not an easy answer.

                          - Lowry has been in this league long enough to have a very good idea of what you have with him. To know his strengths and his weaknesses. In fact he only has one less year experience than Jose and his career has run quite parrallel to Jose's. Moving in and out of starting roles, being moved from teams (although with Jose it was attempts to move him), finding significant roles on losing and mediocre teams. He is not a rookie or a young player getting his first crack into a line up.
                          I think you hit the nail on the head here. Regardless of what we think of one or the other, it makes no sense at all to keep both. If BC isn't seriously shopping around for deals for either one of them, then he's an even bigger fool than I thought he was.

                          On the one hand, you have a guy that the team has been trying to replace the whole time, who is good at running this team. But the reality of it is that this team sucks, and although if we keep playing at this level we might squeak out a playoff spot, we're not going anywhere. On the other hand you have this other guy who keeps getting replaced after injury, but is pretty talented and doesn't fit on this team. The team that needs to get blown up. So on that note I do understand Reinholdt and Matt's vision of keeping Lowry at least another year, even if I don't think he's that good to begin with.

                          To put it bluntly, I support keeping Lowry if and only if this team gets blown up.

                          If not and BC decides to keep a lot of these scraps, then to keep this a watchable team we should ask Jose politely if he'll sign a new contract before we trade him. And if he's willing to take it, trade Lowry because everyone seems to think he is (apparently a triple double threat) really good.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

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                          • #88
                            Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                            Just a precision; I am very happy with Cleveland's approach with the possible exception of resigning LeBron. LeBron had way too much power and influence on decisions in his tenure in Cleveland, and that circus has hopefully moved on never to return.

                            Stuff like interrupting a coach's interview to tell reporters King James was now ready to receive them were common occurrences. His entourage had access to the locker room and other privileges never seen before. Just nuts.
                            I agree that is ridiculous but those were behaviours the former coach, former GM, and current ownership permitted to happen.

                            I don't think Byron Scott would tolerate such behaviour.

                            Also, I can only hope that the last 3 years has taught him some valuable lessons in life and humility. Maybe I am naive and he has learned nothing, I don't know.

                            But the approach Cleveland is taking is exactly what I want to see the Raptors do. Take on sh!t contracts, draft-draft-draft, and hope the young talent become stars or hope the young talent can be traded in combination with trading of expiring contracts and free agency to acquire star talent.

                            I hope this makes sense. My 9 month old is whacking away at the keyboard.... time to go spend some none screen time with her.
                            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Jan 15, 2013, 04:58 PM.

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                            • #89
                              My notes:

                              1 - I agree that keeping Lowry necessitates blowing it up. The bigs that Toronto has probably play fine with him, but the wings are a desolate wasteland devoid of life, skill, or the ability to score points. With that said, that's true with Lowry or without, which is why I support blowing it up period, especially on the wings.

                              2 - Lowry was one of three players posting a 15/5/5. The other two were Westbrook and LeBron. I'm not saying he has the talent of either of those guys (he's actually similar to a poor man's Westbrook in some ways, though), but that's not chopped liver. There's nobody else on the Raptors that could get into a discussion with Westbrook and Lebron.

                              So if the goal is to barely compete for a playoff spot, keep JC. But if you want to try to build a contender, I think your only options are to keep KL, JV, ED, and maybe Ross and build off that, or even jettison KL alongside JC if you don't think he's the answer.

                              But that's basically it: if you want a team that is going to have a chance to be better than boringly mediocre, trading JC is a necessary first step.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Reinholt wrote: View Post
                                My notes:

                                1 - I agree that keeping Lowry necessitates blowing it up. The bigs that Toronto has probably play fine with him, but the wings are a desolate wasteland devoid of life, skill, or the ability to score points. With that said, that's true with Lowry or without, which is why I support blowing it up period, especially on the wings.

                                2 - Lowry was one of three players posting a 15/5/5. The other two were Westbrook and LeBron. I'm not saying he has the talent of either of those guys (he's actually similar to a poor man's Westbrook in some ways, though), but that's not chopped liver. There's nobody else on the Raptors that could get into a discussion with Westbrook and Lebron.

                                So if the goal is to barely compete for a playoff spot, keep JC. But if you want to try to build a contender, I think your only options are to keep KL, JV, ED, and maybe Ross and build off that, or even jettison KL alongside JC if you don't think he's the answer.

                                But that's basically it: if you want a team that is going to have a chance to be better than boringly mediocre, trading JC is a necessary first step.
                                I can agree somewhat with this.

                                I personally think that we should offer Jose a reasonable contract and if he says no, TRADE HIM before the deadline. I would personally trade Lowry as its clear from all the posts on RR that most thinks he's our best player.

                                I would consider keeping the youngsters (players under 25 years old). This will assure we lose enough to get something out of the future drafts. I would look to get a first round pick in 2013 or 2014 (at the very least) for Lowry.

                                I'll admit that i was also okay with going after a SF, but since that doesnt look like its going to happen.....we should likely take the BLOW IT UP approach....

                                p.s. I think the only way we blow this up is if BC gets his walking papers after the season. The fans and ownership will have the patience to allow a new GM to do it right this time.

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