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Revisited: Blow it up..... Seriously?? (Part 2)

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  • #16
    The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

    From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

    There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

    That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

    The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

    ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.

    Comment


    • #17
      Mike Fratello commented on why Brooklyn is playing well as of late. I think I can relate it somehow to the Raptors. He said that the Nets are doing a great job of executing offensively and defensively. On offense, they run sets, cut hard, sharp passes, reverse the ball, reset ... The Raptors have been doing the same recently. The difference is, when all else fails, you need someone to create his own shot. The Nets have D-Will, Johnson and Lopez who can get a shot off 1 on 1. This gives them an excellent last second option when plays break down.

      I agree that the Raptors need talent which I define as players who can get off a shot for themselves at any point during the game. Lowry is the only player who can do this at the moment and he is playing like he's on a mission to troll us since he has been demoted to bench status. I remember the Kings game and the Raptors were playing desperate ball since we were down big. Lowry can single-handedly take over the game.

      They need to play to Lowry's strengths when he comes in the game. Right now, they are running the same sets with Lowry as they do with Jose. Since you've demoted the dude to bench status, might as well let him feast on the opponents.
      “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

      -- Charles Barkley

      Comment


      • #18
        Trade bargs, calderon, kleiza for peanuts and picks - keep the youth/prime aged that matter. I love calderon but there always seem to be quality PGs in the drafts and I wouldn't mind starting fresh after drafting one. I also have an Amir crush and think he can help us.

        I don't wanna tank either, I think that this team has a good attitude and work ethic going but we're still some pieces away before we can consistently make playoffs in the weak east. Let's get shake things up at the top, keep developing and winning and see what kind of salary we can free up and what kinda picks we can get for the players mentioned.
        in masai we trust

        water covers 98% of the earth, Mitchell Robinson covers the other 2%

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        • #19
          Still on-board with the original concept - "Trading Bargnani, Kleiza, Calderon, and possibly Amir (don't like this part) for horrible contracts and picks/right to swap picks" and concentrate on playing the young fellas.

          Ed and Amir have stepped up lately (especially Ed who has eliminated my complaint that he hasn't shown anything but potential) and they now make me believe that the Raps could have a decent 4/5 rotation in a year or so with Val, Ed, Amir and someone else - maybe Anderson for a while but ideally a veteran 4)

          Comment


          • #20
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

            From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

            There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

            That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

            The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

            ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
            Very well laid out point.

            I've been saying for weeks that the team needs to trade Jose to move forward and Lowry isn't able to contribute as well off the bench. Some guys need to start to get the right flow.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

              From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

              There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

              That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

              The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

              ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
              Totally agree. Yet another reason why Gay changes things dramatically. His skill set hasn't been seen in these parts since the Carter days...

              Comment


              • #22
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                The game vs. Milwaukee today has only solidified my belief that the Raps need to up the talent in Toronto.

                From the posters here to listening to Jack Armstrong (who I really like by the way) rip Lowry a new one, I came to a realization.

                There is no doubt Calderon makes others on the roster around him better. If we are talking pure point guard, there is no question Lowry is not even in the same league as Calderon. But when we are talking PLAYER, there is no question Calderon is not even in the same league as Lowry.

                That is the problem in Toronto right now. The team has too many guys who need someone else to make them better. In other words, there is not enough TALENT. Toronto only has one player who can dominate a game night in and night out - and that person, like it or not, is Lowry. Unfortunately, Lowry can't go out and play his game because the rest of the team needs to be spoon fed to get theirs. Outside of Lowry, no one on the Raps can create their own shot within the flow of the game or put the ball in the hoop without running off 3-4 screens or rolling after a screen and receiving a pinpoint pass. That right there is the TALENT issue that continues to plague Toronto.

                The Raptors continue to be a team that is comprised of solid pieces but lack the real TALENT needed to compete with the best.

                ..... And the search for that elusive star wing continues.
                I agree with the sentiment of this post - ie. Jose is a better 'team' player, Lowry is the better 'individual' player and this team needs more talent in general.

                However, Lowry clearly can not dominate night in and night out. He can at times dominate a game, but never consistently. So the trade off is consistent superior team play vs less reliable superior individual play. So aside from my personal belief that a PG's most important role is getting their teammates involved (and why I like Jose) until Lowry can prove he can be consistent about his individual play while also getting others more involved (which he undoubtedly has the capacity to do) starting and playing Jose makes more sense.

                (In the grand scheme of things I'm not concerned who starts/finishes, both are quality PGs and I still expect both to have years of quality PG play in them - Lowry because he's younger, Jose because his style of play lends itself to a long shelf life).

                In general though there is no question this team needs alot more talent. But I also don't think adding Gay is the solution. This team needs to be rebuilt and it needs to do that through the draft. Gay is a good player, but not that stud this team needs. Add a rather terrible contract and that Toronto is almost guaranteed to send a quality young player in order to obtain him, its just the step forward before two steps back.

                Ideal situation for Toronto this year is to end between 4th and 14th to get that protected pick out of their hair. Trading/amnestying Bargnani. Finding a way to add high draft picks. Consistent minutes for Ross and Val. And setting up for a long losing season next year. (I'd also add finding a new home for Demar to that list)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Craiger wrote: View Post
                  I agree with the sentiment of this post - ie. Jose is a better 'team' player, Lowry is the better 'individual' player and this team needs more talent in general.

                  However, Lowry clearly can not dominate night in and night out. He can at times dominate a game, but never consistently. So the trade off is consistent superior team play vs less reliable superior individual play. So aside from my personal belief that a PG's most important role is getting their teammates involved (and why I like Jose) until Lowry can prove he can be consistent about his individual play while also getting others more involved (which he undoubtedly has the capacity to do) starting and playing Jose makes more sense.

                  (In the grand scheme of things I'm not concerned who starts/finishes, both are quality PGs and I still expect both to have years of quality PG play in them - Lowry because he's younger, Jose because his style of play lends itself to a long shelf life).

                  In general though there is no question this team needs alot more talent. But I also don't think adding Gay is the solution. This team needs to be rebuilt and it needs to do that through the draft. Gay is a good player, but not that stud this team needs. Add a rather terrible contract and that Toronto is almost guaranteed to send a quality young player in order to obtain him, its just the step forward before two steps back.

                  Ideal situation for Toronto this year is to end between 4th and 14th to get that protected pick out of their hair. Trading/amnestying Bargnani. Finding a way to add high draft picks. Consistent minutes for Ross and Val. And setting up for a long losing season next year. (I'd also add finding a new home for Demar to that list)
                  Consistency has certainly been a concern but I think that has to do with the circumstances currently surrounding his role with the team.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Consistency has certainly been a concern but I think that has to do with the circumstances currently surrounding his role with the team.
                    How long do you plan on playing this card? Kyle Lowry and Andrea Bargnani have both been in this league for the same number of years. Why should I buy this notion that Lowry still has a big NBA future? I'm not playing devil's advocate -- I actually want to know the answer to this question.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      ebrian wrote: View Post
                      How long do you plan on playing this card? Kyle Lowry and Andrea Bargnani have both been in this league for the same number of years. Why should I buy this notion that Lowry still has a big NBA future? I'm not playing devil's advocate -- I actually want to know the answer to this question.
                      Bargnani and Lowry comparison? Really? If Bargnani played with the hustle of Lowry, Bargnani would be 1st Team All-NBA.

                      We know Bargnani's history. 7 years, silver spoon, no heart.

                      Lowry
                      Year 1: broke wrist
                      year 2: Conley drafted
                      Year 3: traded to Houston
                      Year 4: very capable backup
                      Year 5: full time starter, helped guide Rockets to 4 games above .500 in west
                      Year 6: same as year 5 until injury, lost starting job to Dragic
                      Year 7: started year awesome, battled injuries, another case of the backup playing well when he went down

                      Situation can be just as important as talent in the NBA. Lowry has had some unfortunate situations. Now he is in another unfortunate situation where he is being asked to change his game because the supporting cast need to be spoon fed.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        ebrian wrote: View Post
                        How long do you plan on playing this card? Kyle Lowry and Andrea Bargnani have both been in this league for the same number of years. Why should I buy this notion that Lowry still has a big NBA future? I'm not playing devil's advocate -- I actually want to know the answer to this question.
                        haha seriously?

                        Matt did a good job but here are a few other points.

                        Lowry is an undersized guard who has worked hard to go from a late first rounder to a starter who was getting all-star talk before his injury. He has been a guy second guessed his entire career and still come out on top.

                        Bargnani is a soft behemoth who was taken first overall, never had to work hard to earn his playing time or roster spot and has been a lethargic disappointment for all but 13 games of his career.

                        Lowry will not turn into Chris Paul, but he has the skill and work ethic to become a big time player. And while it is often true that stars are stars from day one, there are plenty of examples of players getting better even later in their career. Look at Chauncey Billups for example. Especially at the point, experience leads to improvement. Given that Lowry hasn't been given as much of an opportunity as Bargnani, it certainly seems likely that he will still improve his game in the areas that aren't fully developed yet (mostly, setting up teammates) and yet he is young enough that his physical skills wont be diminished.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          Bargnani and Lowry comparison? Really? If Bargnani played with the hustle of Lowry, Bargnani would be 1st Team All-NBA.

                          We know Bargnani's history. 7 years, silver spoon, no heart.

                          Lowry
                          Year 1: broke wrist
                          year 2: Conley drafted
                          Year 3: traded to Houston
                          Year 4: very capable backup
                          Year 5: full time starter, helped guide Rockets to 4 games above .500 in west
                          Year 6: same as year 5 until injury, lost starting job to Dragic
                          Year 7: started year awesome, battled injuries, another case of the backup playing well when he went down

                          Situation can be just as important as talent in the NBA. Lowry has had some unfortunate situations. Now he is in another unfortunate situation where he is being asked to change his game because the supporting cast need to be spoon fed.
                          The comparison was made to illustrate that after 7 years in the league it's time to face reality. We all love to look at a guy and say he has potential but when you've gone 7 years and you haven't solidified that play, or had coaches back you up -- then it's time to re-examine.

                          Here are my responses to Lowry's 7 years:

                          Year 1: Okay.
                          Year 2: Why?
                          Year 3: Okay.
                          Year 4: Exactly.
                          Year 5: Great! Full time starter in his 5th season!
                          Year 6: Exactly.
                          Year 7: Exactly.

                          Here's the thing. Conley, Calderon, Dragic -- none of these guys are stars. Yet if I read some comments on these forums, I would think that Lowry has the potential to be one. When exactly is that going to happen? If he's a top 5-10 point guard, then why have all these coaches chosen to start average point guards over him? Simply because the team is doing well? I can think of several point guards who would not lose their starting position when returning from injury, and all of them are in the top 10 rankings of point guards. Situation is one thing and I see your point in this regard, but it's been 7 years and it's the same thing over and over and over again.

                          We all love to watch basketball and we think we know a lot, but these coaches, it can't be that they're all wrong. I could understand if it were one coach, but all of them?
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ebrian wrote: View Post
                            The comparison was made to illustrate that after 7 years in the league it's time to face reality. We all love to look at a guy and say he has potential but when you've gone 7 years and you haven't solidified that play, or had coaches back you up -- then it's time to re-examine.

                            Here are my responses to Lowry's 7 years:

                            Year 1: Okay.
                            Year 2: Why?
                            Year 3: Okay.
                            Year 4: Exactly.
                            Year 5: Great! Full time starter in his 5th season!
                            Year 6: Exactly.
                            Year 7: Exactly.

                            Here's the thing. Conley, Calderon, Dragic -- none of these guys are stars. Yet if I read some comments on these forums, I would think that Lowry has the potential to be one. When exactly is that going to happen? If he's a top 5-10 point guard, then why have all these coaches chosen to start average point guards over him? Simply because the team is doing well? I can think of several point guards who would not lose their starting position when returning from injury, and all of them are in the top 10 rankings of point guards. Situation is one thing and I see your point in this regard, but it's been 7 years and it's the same thing over and over and over again.

                            We all love to watch basketball and we think we know a lot, but these coaches, it can't be that they're all wrong. I could understand if it were one coach, but all of them?
                            The fact he took until his fifth year to become a full time starter is irrelevant. Some players take time to develop or shine when given an opportunity. Very few guys come in to the league with the talent, an opportunity, and the situation to shine.

                            Year 2: Why? Because he was taken 24th the year before, missed most of the season, and then Conley was selected 4th overall.

                            The discussion is in the here and now and he has shown when healthy he is top 10 PG material in this league. I don't think what Dragic did last year was average when Lowry went out and I don't think what Calderon has done this year is average when Lowry went out either.

                            I am not sure what you are arguing here. There is no question of the guys talent. When healthy and when given minutes he is a triple double threat every time he steps on to the court. Even after some pretty horrendous games of late he is still rocking a PER of nearly 22.

                            The issue surrounding Lowry that I am starting to question is his durability and conditioning.... not his talent or ability to start and be a top 10 PG in this league.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I still think the only even somewhat 'untouchable' players on the roster are Valanciunas and Ross. I have no issue trading any other player, as long as it's part of a good trade to make the team better with the long-term in mind.

                              I am strongly in favor of maximizing the value of your assets, which would mean trading players who have expiring contracts or players who aren't in the long-term plans for the team, in order to turn them into something tangible (ie: draft picks, cap space, young prospects) that could become part of the long-term core. Players like Calderon (although I'd try to sign him again in the offseason), Kleiza, Anderson, Pietrus, Gray, Lucas and Acy come to mind.

                              That leaves 6 players in the middle-ground, who I don't view as 'untouchable' or as 'trade bait': Bargnani, Davis, Johnson, DeRozan, Fields, Lowry

                              Bargnani
                              - as strong a supporter of his that I've been, I agree that it's now in everybody's best interest to trade him
                              - I don't view him as 'trade bait', since I think he still has talent and shouldn't just be given away

                              Davis/Johnson
                              - I like them both and they have played pretty well together, but on a contending team, I don't think both are needed
                              - I would still look to trade one of them because I think they're both ideally suited to a backup PF / 3rd big role, since neither of them is very good at creating their own shot

                              DeRozan
                              - I still don't think he's worth his contract because he's far too inconsistent, though it's unlikely he gets dealt unless it's for a player like Gay (a wing with an even bigger contract)
                              - he desperately needs to develop a better, more consistent 3pt shot, otherwise opposition will sag off him and give him the long shots, to prevent penetration

                              Fields
                              - good glue guy, unlikely to be traded due to his contract
                              - will be good Tony Allen type player in an improved starting rotation, or as a 2nd unit wing
                              - needs to get that ugly shot figured out, hopefully will come along as he recovers from surgery

                              Lowry
                              - I was happy with the trade, but have not been impressed with him; his defense seems overrrated, his offense is inconsistent, his attitude has been Ford/Bayless-esque and I still prefer a pass-first PG
                              - at the start of the season I had him down as nearly 'untouchable', but I don't think that's the case anymore - his great contract and upside could be a very valuable trade chip


                              I don't think I would support 'blowing it up', but I am all for making trades that put this team in a position to be better (ie: more talented) in the long-term.

                              ---

                              As for the poll, I like #1 and #3.

                              Given Gay's age, I think if #1 and #3 were combined, it wouldn't be an acceleration of the building plan, but just a juggling of core pieces (ie: if the trade was Calderon & DeRozan & Davis for Gay & Selby) - it would just be replacing DeRozan with Gay.
                              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Jan 14, 2013, 02:15 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                I still think the only even somewhat 'untouchable' players on the roster are Valanciunas and Ross. I have no issue trading any other player, as long as it's part of a good trade to make the team better with the long-term in mind.

                                I am strongly in favor of maximizing the value of your assets, which would mean trading players who have expiring contracts or players who aren't in the long-term plans for the team, in order to turn them into something tangible (ie: draft picks, cap space, young prospects) that could become part of the long-term core. Players like Calderon (although I'd try to sign him again in the offseason), Kleiza, Anderson, Pietrus, Gray, Lucas and Acy come to mind.

                                That leaves 6 players in the middle-ground, who I don't view as 'untouchable' or as 'trade bait': Bargnani, Davis, Johnson, DeRozan, Fields, Lowry

                                Bargnani
                                - as strong a supporter of his that I've been, I agree that it's now in everybody's best interest to trade him
                                - I don't view him as 'trade bait', since I think he still has talent and shouldn't just be given away

                                Davis/Johnson
                                - I like them both and they have played pretty well together, but on a contending team, I don't think both are needed
                                - I would still look to trade one of them because I think they're both ideally suited to a backup PF / 3rd big role, since neither of them is very good at creating their own shot

                                DeRozan
                                - I still don't think he's worth his contract because he's far too inconsistent, though it's unlikely he gets dealt unless it's for a player like Gay (a wing with an even bigger contract)
                                - he desperately needs to develop a better, more consistent 3pt shot, otherwise opposition will sag off him and give him the long shots, to prevent penetration

                                Fields
                                - good glue guy, unlikely to be traded due to his contract
                                - will be good Tony Allen type player in an improved starting rotation, or as a 2nd unit wing
                                - needs to get that ugly shot figured out, hopefully will come along as he recovers from surgery

                                Lowry
                                - I was happy with the trade, but have not been impressed with him; his defense seems overrrated, his offense is inconsistent, his attitude has been Ford/Bayless-esque and I still prefer a pass-first PG
                                - at the start of the season I had him down as nearly 'untouchable', but I don't think that's the case anymore - his great contract and upside could be a very valuable trade chip


                                I don't think I would support 'blowing it up', but I am all for making trades that put this team in a position to be better (ie: more talented) in the long-term.
                                6 assists yesterday in 17 minutes. Not shabby.

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