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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Default Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

    They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, and I say if our GM isn't smart enough to put a winning team together himself then he should imitate what other teams have done to find success. I'm currently on the band wagon with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Lin together. Houston has done (imo) and excellent job of recognizing that you have to have elite level player(s) to build around in order for success in the NBA. They did their best to try and attract Bosh, Melo and Dwight, and when that didn't work they put together a nice package for Harden and put a young and upcoming PG in Lin next to him.

    It's time for BC to recognize that we have a roster full of capable parts, but not a single elite level player among them. He needs to take a look at the NBA landscape and find his Harden/Lin combination to build around and make a strong move towards acquiring those players. I'll go ahead and say that I would be happy with an Eric Bledsoe/Rudy Gay combination in our starting line up next season. If we can keep JV in the process then great, but I'm fine with giving up some of our young talent as well as future draft picks for those two.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Although I don't think the Lin/Harden pairing is a great one, I agree in theory. There isn't a single "all-NBA" calibre player on our roster. That needs to change before the Raptors ever become relevant.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Although I don't think the Lin/Harden pairing is a great one, I agree in theory. There isn't a single "all-NBA" calibre player on our roster. That needs to change before the Raptors ever become relevant.
    In the interest of full disclosure, the Raptors do have an NBA All-Star ( or two ) on the roster already. In the first case, we have not learned how to motivate him. Now don't tell me that we've exhausted all the motivational tools at our disposal. As Don Corleone was said, "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse..," and who knows if Andrea has been offered th opportunity to:

    1.) Save his favourite horse from being slaughtered and left in an oversized bed with Andrea sleeping soundly beside the beast?
    2.) Have sex with his girlfriend in the privacy of the Raptors dressing room during the first ten minutes of each Raptor game, followed by a bowl of pasta before coming into the game as the potential sixth man of the year?
    3.) Pick another carrot or stick from your imagination and feel free to add it to this thread.

    We can all agree that Il Mago has the physical size and the internal electrical synapses needed to do whatever he wants on the offensive side of the game. Now he simply needs to be adequately compensated (carrot) or motivated (stick) until both sides of the equation are happy.

    Am I missing something here?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    In the interest of full disclosure, the Raptors do have an NBA All-Star ( or two ) on the roster already. In the first case, we have not learned how to motivate him. Now don't tell me that we've exhausted all the motivational tools at our disposal. As Don Corleone was said, "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse..," and who knows if Andrea has been offered th opportunity to:

    1.) Save his favourite horse from being slaughtered and left in an oversized bed with Andrea sleeping soundly beside the beast?
    2.) Have sex with his girlfriend in the privacy of the Raptors dressing room during the first ten minutes of each Raptor game, followed by a bowl of pasta before coming into the game as the potential sixth man of the year?
    3.) Pick another carrot or stick from your imagination and feel free to add it to this thread.

    We can all agree that Il Mago has the physical size and the internal electrical synapses needed to do whatever he wants on the offensive side of the game. Now he simply needs to be adequately compensated (carrot) or motivated (stick) until both sides of the equation are happy.

    Am I missing something here?
    Of all people I'm going to say this, but you kinda missed seven years.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Of all people I'm going to say this, but you kinda missed seven years.
    You have also missed my solution for the second all-star that the Raptors already have on the roster. I'll save my formula for helping that man to blossom until someone tells me that Andrea has truly been motivated, Sicilian style, especially if they've had seven years to try.

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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    You have also missed my solution for the second all-star that the Raptors already have on the roster. I'll save my formula for helping that man to blossom until someone tells me that Andrea has truly been motivated, Sicilian style, especially if they've had seven years to try.
    Oh boy, I can't wait.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    In the interest of full disclosure, the Raptors do have an NBA All-Star ( or two ) on the roster already. In the first case, we have not learned how to motivate him. Now don't tell me that we've exhausted all the motivational tools at our disposal. As Don Corleone was said, "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse..," and who knows if Andrea has been offered th opportunity to:

    1.) Save his favourite horse from being slaughtered and left in an oversized bed with Andrea sleeping soundly beside the beast?
    2.) Have sex with his girlfriend in the privacy of the Raptors dressing room during the first ten minutes of each Raptor game, followed by a bowl of pasta before coming into the game as the potential sixth man of the year?
    3.) Pick another carrot or stick from your imagination and feel free to add it to this thread.

    We can all agree that Il Mago has the physical size and the internal electrical synapses needed to do whatever he wants on the offensive side of the game. Now he simply needs to be adequately compensated (carrot) or motivated (stick) until both sides of the equation are happy.

    Am I missing something here?
    Bargnani has never shown "all-NBA" understanding on the defensive end. I'll admit the guy has many OFFENSIVE skills other big men simply don't possess, but he's clueless on the defensive end. This doesn't seem like a motivational issue. It's an neurological/intellectual limitation, IMO. No motivational technique in the world is going to help Bargnani understand when to leave his weak-side man, and step in for the charge.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    WHile I understand what you are saying, jeremy Lin is not aplyer you build around, the guy is not that good. He had a Bargnani like stretch of good games, but now that the legue has scouted him he has been average at best.
    12 ppg, 6.3 apg, 3 topg and shoots less tahn 28% from 3. Now Harden gets the ball in his hadns quite a bit so teh assist number could relfect that, but thses are not the number of a future NBA champion starting point guard that is a focal point of your offense.

    I also think Harden is a way better talent than Gay, so we better get a guy who is better than Lin to pair with him....and Bledsoe is not that guy... we already have better talent than him (Bledsoe) on the roster.

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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    WHile I understand what you are saying, jeremy Lin is not aplyer you build around, the guy is not that good. He had a Bargnani like stretch of good games, but now that the legue has scouted him he has been average at best.
    12 ppg, 6.3 apg, 3 topg and shoots less tahn 28% from 3. Now Harden gets the ball in his hadns quite a bit so teh assist number could relfect that, but thses are not the number of a future NBA champion starting point guard that is a focal point of your offense.

    I also think Harden is a way better talent than Gay, so we better get a guy who is better than Lin to pair with him....and Bledsoe is not that guy... we already have better talent than him (Bledsoe) on the roster.
    You're right about Lin, and I should have said Harden with Lin and Ashik around him, but you get where I'm going. If you can't blow it up and build through the draft OKC style, then blow it up and build through trades like Houston.
    In my Gay and Bledsoe pairing it's Bledsoe that I think will be the star. I'm really excited about his game and I think he will break out in a starting role as Harden did this season. There is no comaring him with Bargnani because it took Bargs 6 or 7 years to show All Star talent, but Bledsoe is showing it in his 3rd season...as a back up...and he was injured for much of his second year I beleive. Needless to say I love Bledsoe's game and just have a really good feeling about him in starting role and given the reigns to his own team.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You're right about Lin, and I should have said Harden with Lin and Ashik around him, but you get where I'm going. If you can't blow it up and build through the draft OKC style, then blow it up and build through trades like Houston.
    In my Gay and Bledsoe pairing it's Bledsoe that I think will be the star. I'm really excited about his game and I think he will break out in a starting role as Harden did this season. There is no comaring him with Bargnani because it took Bargs 6 or 7 years to show All Star talent, but Bledsoe is showing it in his 3rd season...as a back up...and he was injured for much of his second year I beleive. Needless to say I love Bledsoe's game and just have a really good feeling about him in starting role and given the reigns to his own team.
    I am not so sold on Eric Bledsoe, he is showing that he can be a qualty resserve and fill a role, but stepping up to be a fulltime playmaker is a big jump.

    I think we are one legit young allstar away from being a pretty good team. We have some very solid pieces moving forward in Val Ed and Ross, add in Demar, Amir, Calderon and Bargnani as assest that could net us the guy we need and things are not so dreary.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    In my Gay and Bledsoe pairing it's Bledsoe that I think will be the star. I'm really excited about his game and I think he will break out in a starting role as Harden did this season. There is no comaring him with Bargnani because it took Bargs 6 or 7 years to show All Star talent, but Bledsoe is showing it in his 3rd season...as a back up...and he was injured for much of his second year I beleive. Needless to say I love Bledsoe's game and just have a really good feeling about him in starting role and given the reigns to his own team.
    Bledsoes offensive game is incomplete. He's not a good shooter and currently relies on his godly athleticism to attack the rim. He's perfect as the backup pg in LAC due to the plethora of good shooters on their team (Crawford, Barnes, hill, green, butler). An energy guy who's brought in to draw a couple fouls, disrupt the opponent's offence and grab the occasional offensive rebound (which amazes me every time he does considering his height). He hasn't shown any significant playmaking ability aside from drive and kicks. Harden on the other hand had already proven playmaking and shotmaking ability. His game was already dangerously close to Manu playing as the 6th man to Westbrook and Durant. He's essentially Black Manu

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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    Bledsoes offensive game is incomplete. He's not a good shooter and currently relies on his godly athleticism to attack the rim. He's perfect as the backup pg in LAC due to the plethora of good shooters on their team (Crawford, Barnes, hill, green, butler). An energy guy who's brought in to draw a couple fouls, disrupt the opponent's offence and grab the occasional offensive rebound (which amazes me every time he does considering his height). He hasn't shown any significant playmaking ability aside from drive and kicks. Harden on the other hand had already proven playmaking and shotmaking ability. His game was already dangerously close to Manu playing as the 6th man to Westbrook and Durant. He's essentially Black Manu
    You just described D.Wade's game to a tee. Just remember that he's just in this third season and was injured for much of his second year. He has a long way to go before you see the finished product but he's got a lot going for himself already as you described. Also if he was already a bonafied star ther would be no way the Clips would let him go. We have to take a chance on an unproven commodity that the organization evaluates and deems can be successful in a starting role on our team.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You just described D.Wade's game to a tee. Just remember that he's just in this third season and was injured for much of his second year. He has a long way to go before you see the finished product but he's got a lot going for himself already as you described. Also if he was already a bonafied star ther would be no way the Clips would let him go. We have to take a chance on an unproven commodity that the organization evaluates and deems can be successful in a starting role on our team.
    Couple of things I'd like to point out. There are tons of NBA players who use their athleticism to attack the rim (albeit bledsoe is probably top tier in terms of athleticism), but that does not mean they have the same style of play as dwade. Wade was a great(not as good as he is now) ball handler and playmaker out of school, both of which are just average for bledsoe. Second, wade's a 2 guard, bledsoe's a 1. Unless this team gets some studs to fill the other positions, I rather not have a slasher as the primary point man. OKC can pull it off with Westbrook (though westbrook has become a much better shooter now) at point because Durant can knock down shots anywhere on the court even with defenders on him. Gay is a good shooter but no where near Durant's level. His 3pt shooting has actually been pretty bad the last 2 years.

    And finally, as for acquiring Bledsoe i've read somewhere that LAC is pretty adamant on keeping him until they can secure CP3 who'll be a FA this summer. So it'll be tough to swing a deal for him. And if we do get him Jose will likely not be around which is unfortunate because he'd make a good mentor for him.

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    i have zero confidence that b.c. can fix this debacle.

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    It's really just a gamble isn't it? There isn't a full proof plan to being successful in the NBA. Sort of like poker where you can play really tight and wait and wait for the right moment to gamble and just watch your stack of chips just whither away and whither away until it's all gone or you're left with too little to gamble with. Sometimes you have to force the action and make something happen, and not wait for that right moment because those moments sometimes don't come by.

    Similarly we can wait and wait on Bargnani to meet expectations..oh wait we already did that. We can wait and see if T. Ross or JV can maybe become All Stars or hope that DeMar will hit another level, but sometimes you have to give up on the unknown commodity for the known, imo.

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    Rudy Gay is not a cornserstone.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Rudy Gay is not a cornserstone.
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    I'd say it's a guy who can be the best player on the floor, for at least one game, when playing against anyone else, when the stakes of that game are high.

    For example, Rondo can be better than Lebron when they're playing high stakes games. Is he always better player than James? Of course not. But he can raise his game up to that highest level, so I would call Rondo a cornerstone.

    On the other hand, as much as I enjoy seeing DeMar's improvement this year, I cannot imagine that he will ever be able to outplay any of the best players for even a single game when it matters.

    Other cornerstones right now: Durant, Paul, Westbrook, Kobe, Anthony, Nowitzki, Duncan (maybe still?), D Rose, Kyrie, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard (I'll keep him here for the moment, but bad backs can be brutal), Noah, Randolph, Love, Rubio, Bynum (an injury prone cornerstone, the worst kind).

    Potential cornerstones: Paul George, Steph Curry, Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, Batum, Lillard, MKG, Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe, Monroe, and a bunch of other dudes with much slimmer chances (and I'd put Ross and Valanciunas in this category, with Ross ahead of Valanciunas).

    And I agree with Mediumcore, I think you do whatever it takes to get any of these guys. You overpay for these guys.

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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    Well, there are obvious ones.....LeBron, KD, Melo, Harden, CP3, D-Rose....A cornerstone is a talent who's capable of elevating his team and help the whole be more than the sum of its parts.

    A couple of thoughts. First, I'm a believer that if you don't have that kind of obvious franchise talent, then your "cornerstone(s)" are likely either a solid big who has a solid defensive impact, or a PG who runs your team well. Think Detroit last decade. Now, doesn't mean no one will be an all-star, including your wings, but that your wings likely aren't the biggest difference makers on either end of the court. Now, don't tell me Detroit wasn't relevant.
    Of course the flip side is it's near impossible to win a trophy without one true franchise talent. Detroit was the best team in the east for nearly a decade, but only won one trophy, and Billups had a great playoff run that year. Another team like this was Cleveland waay back in the day (like Mark Price days), or even Portland around 2000, when they had a deep, very talented team, but no true franchise player (partly because of some being too old for that. A younger Sabonis or Pippen would have never let that lead slip away against LA). So I do think, in theory, that the Raptors need to find a way to acquire that kind of player at some point. But Rudy Gay is not that player. Getting him is not similar to Houston getting Harden.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well, there are obvious ones.....LeBron, KD, Melo, Harden, CP3, D-Rose....A cornerstone is a talent who's capable of elevating his team and help the whole be more than the sum of its parts.

    A couple of thoughts. First, I'm a believer that if you don't have that kind of obvious franchise talent, then your "cornerstone(s)" are likely either a solid big who has a solid defensive impact, or a PG who runs your team well. Think Detroit last decade. Now, doesn't mean no one will be an all-star, including your wings, but that your wings likely aren't the biggest difference makers on either end of the court. Now, don't tell me Detroit wasn't relevant.
    Of course the flip side is it's near impossible to win a trophy without one true franchise talent. Detroit was the best team in the east for nearly a decade, but only won one trophy, and Billups had a great playoff run that year. Another team like this was Cleveland waay back in the day (like Mark Price days), or even Portland around 2000, when they had a deep, very talented team, but no true franchise player (partly because of some being too old for that. A younger Sabonis or Pippen would have never let that lead slip away against LA). So I do think, in theory, that the Raptors need to find a way to acquire that kind of player at some point. But Rudy Gay is not that player. Getting him is not similar to Houston getting Harden.
    I think it's valid to mention that either 4 of the 5 starters for Detroit if not all 5 were All Stars, so even though none of them might have been considered a franchise talent the group of them together were in a way a gathering of elite players.

    Just something to consider....if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol. I don't want to get into how Memphis is a half court team and Gay's game is more suited to an uptempo style like Houston, OKC and what Toronto wants to be because I'm sure you've already considered that, but it's a valid factor when projecting how Gay might impact the Raptors should a trade happen.

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