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Thread: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Default Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

    They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, and I say if our GM isn't smart enough to put a winning team together himself then he should imitate what other teams have done to find success. I'm currently on the band wagon with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Lin together. Houston has done (imo) and excellent job of recognizing that you have to have elite level player(s) to build around in order for success in the NBA. They did their best to try and attract Bosh, Melo and Dwight, and when that didn't work they put together a nice package for Harden and put a young and upcoming PG in Lin next to him.

    It's time for BC to recognize that we have a roster full of capable parts, but not a single elite level player among them. He needs to take a look at the NBA landscape and find his Harden/Lin combination to build around and make a strong move towards acquiring those players. I'll go ahead and say that I would be happy with an Eric Bledsoe/Rudy Gay combination in our starting line up next season. If we can keep JV in the process then great, but I'm fine with giving up some of our young talent as well as future draft picks for those two.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Although I don't think the Lin/Harden pairing is a great one, I agree in theory. There isn't a single "all-NBA" calibre player on our roster. That needs to change before the Raptors ever become relevant.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    WHile I understand what you are saying, jeremy Lin is not aplyer you build around, the guy is not that good. He had a Bargnani like stretch of good games, but now that the legue has scouted him he has been average at best.
    12 ppg, 6.3 apg, 3 topg and shoots less tahn 28% from 3. Now Harden gets the ball in his hadns quite a bit so teh assist number could relfect that, but thses are not the number of a future NBA champion starting point guard that is a focal point of your offense.

    I also think Harden is a way better talent than Gay, so we better get a guy who is better than Lin to pair with him....and Bledsoe is not that guy... we already have better talent than him (Bledsoe) on the roster.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    WHile I understand what you are saying, jeremy Lin is not aplyer you build around, the guy is not that good. He had a Bargnani like stretch of good games, but now that the legue has scouted him he has been average at best.
    12 ppg, 6.3 apg, 3 topg and shoots less tahn 28% from 3. Now Harden gets the ball in his hadns quite a bit so teh assist number could relfect that, but thses are not the number of a future NBA champion starting point guard that is a focal point of your offense.

    I also think Harden is a way better talent than Gay, so we better get a guy who is better than Lin to pair with him....and Bledsoe is not that guy... we already have better talent than him (Bledsoe) on the roster.
    You're right about Lin, and I should have said Harden with Lin and Ashik around him, but you get where I'm going. If you can't blow it up and build through the draft OKC style, then blow it up and build through trades like Houston.
    In my Gay and Bledsoe pairing it's Bledsoe that I think will be the star. I'm really excited about his game and I think he will break out in a starting role as Harden did this season. There is no comaring him with Bargnani because it took Bargs 6 or 7 years to show All Star talent, but Bledsoe is showing it in his 3rd season...as a back up...and he was injured for much of his second year I beleive. Needless to say I love Bledsoe's game and just have a really good feeling about him in starting role and given the reigns to his own team.

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    i have zero confidence that b.c. can fix this debacle.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You're right about Lin, and I should have said Harden with Lin and Ashik around him, but you get where I'm going. If you can't blow it up and build through the draft OKC style, then blow it up and build through trades like Houston.
    In my Gay and Bledsoe pairing it's Bledsoe that I think will be the star. I'm really excited about his game and I think he will break out in a starting role as Harden did this season. There is no comaring him with Bargnani because it took Bargs 6 or 7 years to show All Star talent, but Bledsoe is showing it in his 3rd season...as a back up...and he was injured for much of his second year I beleive. Needless to say I love Bledsoe's game and just have a really good feeling about him in starting role and given the reigns to his own team.
    I am not so sold on Eric Bledsoe, he is showing that he can be a qualty resserve and fill a role, but stepping up to be a fulltime playmaker is a big jump.

    I think we are one legit young allstar away from being a pretty good team. We have some very solid pieces moving forward in Val Ed and Ross, add in Demar, Amir, Calderon and Bargnani as assest that could net us the guy we need and things are not so dreary.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    It's really just a gamble isn't it? There isn't a full proof plan to being successful in the NBA. Sort of like poker where you can play really tight and wait and wait for the right moment to gamble and just watch your stack of chips just whither away and whither away until it's all gone or you're left with too little to gamble with. Sometimes you have to force the action and make something happen, and not wait for that right moment because those moments sometimes don't come by.

    Similarly we can wait and wait on Bargnani to meet expectations..oh wait we already did that. We can wait and see if T. Ross or JV can maybe become All Stars or hope that DeMar will hit another level, but sometimes you have to give up on the unknown commodity for the known, imo.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Rudy Gay is not a cornserstone.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Rudy Gay is not a cornserstone.
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, and I say if our GM isn't smart enough to put a winning team together himself then he should imitate what other teams have done to find success. I'm currently on the band wagon with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Lin together. Houston has done (imo) and excellent job of recognizing that you have to have elite level player(s) to build around in order for success in the NBA. They did their best to try and attract Bosh, Melo and Dwight, and when that didn't work they put together a nice package for Harden and put a young and upcoming PG in Lin next to him.

    It's time for BC to recognize that we have a roster full of capable parts, but not a single elite level player among them. He needs to take a look at the NBA landscape and find his Harden/Lin combination to build around and make a strong move towards acquiring those players. I'll go ahead and say that I would be happy with an Eric Bledsoe/Rudy Gay combination in our starting line up next season. If we can keep JV in the process then great, but I'm fine with giving up some of our young talent as well as future draft picks for those two.
    TO be honest, i'm not a huge fan of the direction the league has taken in general. Which is to say that 1 or 2 elite players are required to be successful, and will therefore be given the benefit of the doubt by the officials in order to promote the quality of the league to the uninitiated. I much prefer the team-style basketball of complex player movements, screens, ball movement. Every (many) player contributes to the success of the team. I think that this style of play CAN be successful in the league, and is certainly more sustainable and achievable than the super-star model.

    I somewhat agree with the intent of your comment. Although I am a little apprehensive because if everyone followed that model than nobody would be able to achieve its outcomes. There are many different ways to build a successful team, the problem is that as fans we only see the ones that are actively achieving their goals. Super star model is working in Miami, drafting method is working in OKC, young talent method is (arguably) working in Houston, role player team method is working (arguably) in Denver.

    So maybe we should find our own method that can take advantage of the talent is is actually available. I don't know if BC's method can be classified as anything yet (Euro method maybe?), because I wouldn't say that we have witnessed its success. But at least its different than what is out there, which has me excited that it is based on players that are available.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    You're touching upon and important subject...about the way the league is heading, but at the end of the day results are what matter. BC has had plenty of opportunity to implement a plan already and now he's on his second or third plan and still no results. There is no shame is looking at what is working and modeling your team after that. Sometimes innovating is just as spectacular as inventing.

    Cleary the league is driven by stars. Houston as is my example has continually been a mediocre team since injury hit Yao and
    T-Mac. Always threatening to grab a playoff spot, but just not good enough to grab a spot in a tough western conference. They made a big move this off season, and in just their first season together Houston is sitting around the 7th spot in the west if I'm not mistaken. Could it back fire, sure, but atleast they are at the poker table gambling and not just sitting there folding every hand, watching their stack of chips get smaller and smaller while maintaining hope they are going to hit a big hand soon.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, and I say if our GM isn't smart enough to put a winning team together himself then he should imitate what other teams have done to find success. I'm currently on the band wagon with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Lin together. Houston has done (imo) and excellent job of recognizing that you have to have elite level player(s) to build around in order for success in the NBA. They did their best to try and attract Bosh, Melo and Dwight, and when that didn't work they put together a nice package for Harden and put a young and upcoming PG in Lin next to him.

    It's time for BC to recognize that we have a roster full of capable parts, but not a single elite level player among them. He needs to take a look at the NBA landscape and find his Harden/Lin combination to build around and make a strong move towards acquiring those players. I'll go ahead and say that I would be happy with an Eric Bledsoe/Rudy Gay combination in our starting line up next season. If we can keep JV in the process then great, but I'm fine with giving up some of our young talent as well as future draft picks for those two.
    It boggles my mind that so many here are so high on Gay being an elite talent. This year, his 7th, playing with all star level C and PF drawing opposition attention, his overall FG% is equivalent to Bargnani's and his 3p% is equivalent to DD's. Why the fk would you want the team to spend as much on that as Bargnani and DD combined? On top of that, people who actually have an inside track to what the Raps are thinking regarding Gay now have heard that BC did inquire about what the demand would be to acquire him, and word is the asking price is way too high. What about him is worth gutting the team of it's most promising youth? Are you suggesting that BC should suddenly abandon the patient build approach and go back to a lame attempt at a quick fix via a very inefficient and grossly overpaid SF?

    Bledsoe: I fail to see what you see as "elite" in his game, but he's on a rookie scale contract through next year, and will only be a RFA for the 2014/15 season. What do suggest we could offer LAC that they would want (take a look at their roster!) and the Raps should be willing to give?

    It's fine to sit back in your armchair and play hypothetical GM, but unless you've got something that is workable and makes sense, don't take your fantasy GMing too seriously.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    It boggles my mind that so many here are so high on Gay being an elite talent. This year, his 7th, playing with all star level C and PF drawing opposition attention, his overall FG% is equivalent to Bargnani's and his 3p% is equivalent to DD's. Why the fk would you want the team to spend as much on that as Bargnani and DD combined? On top of that, people who actually have an inside track to what the Raps are thinking regarding Gay now have heard that BC did inquire about what the demand would be to acquire him, and word is the asking price is way too high. What about him is worth gutting the team of it's most promising youth? Are you suggesting that BC should suddenly abandon the patient build approach and go back to a lame attempt at a quick fix via a very inefficient and grossly overpaid SF?

    Bledsoe: I fail to see what you see as "elite" in his game, but he's on a rookie scale contract through next year, and will only be a RFA for the 2014/15 season. What do suggest we could offer LAC that they would want (take a look at their roster!) and the Raps should be willing to give?

    It's fine to sit back in your armchair and play hypothetical GM, but unless you've got something that is workable and makes sense, don't take your fantasy GMing too seriously.
    I'll use the flawed p00ka response by appealing to authority to counter a point. Colangelo, a guy who knows much more about basketball than you, is interested in Gay....so that should tell you something

    Anyways, Gay's career shooting numbers look just fine.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Although I don't think the Lin/Harden pairing is a great one, I agree in theory. There isn't a single "all-NBA" calibre player on our roster. That needs to change before the Raptors ever become relevant.
    In the interest of full disclosure, the Raptors do have an NBA All-Star ( or two ) on the roster already. In the first case, we have not learned how to motivate him. Now don't tell me that we've exhausted all the motivational tools at our disposal. As Don Corleone was said, "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse..," and who knows if Andrea has been offered th opportunity to:

    1.) Save his favourite horse from being slaughtered and left in an oversized bed with Andrea sleeping soundly beside the beast?
    2.) Have sex with his girlfriend in the privacy of the Raptors dressing room during the first ten minutes of each Raptor game, followed by a bowl of pasta before coming into the game as the potential sixth man of the year?
    3.) Pick another carrot or stick from your imagination and feel free to add it to this thread.

    We can all agree that Il Mago has the physical size and the internal electrical synapses needed to do whatever he wants on the offensive side of the game. Now he simply needs to be adequately compensated (carrot) or motivated (stick) until both sides of the equation are happy.

    Am I missing something here?

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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    In the interest of full disclosure, the Raptors do have an NBA All-Star ( or two ) on the roster already. In the first case, we have not learned how to motivate him. Now don't tell me that we've exhausted all the motivational tools at our disposal. As Don Corleone was said, "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse..," and who knows if Andrea has been offered th opportunity to:

    1.) Save his favourite horse from being slaughtered and left in an oversized bed with Andrea sleeping soundly beside the beast?
    2.) Have sex with his girlfriend in the privacy of the Raptors dressing room during the first ten minutes of each Raptor game, followed by a bowl of pasta before coming into the game as the potential sixth man of the year?
    3.) Pick another carrot or stick from your imagination and feel free to add it to this thread.

    We can all agree that Il Mago has the physical size and the internal electrical synapses needed to do whatever he wants on the offensive side of the game. Now he simply needs to be adequately compensated (carrot) or motivated (stick) until both sides of the equation are happy.

    Am I missing something here?
    Of all people I'm going to say this, but you kinda missed seven years.

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    Quote Soft Euro wrote: View Post
    Of all people I'm going to say this, but you kinda missed seven years.
    You have also missed my solution for the second all-star that the Raptors already have on the roster. I'll save my formula for helping that man to blossom until someone tells me that Andrea has truly been motivated, Sicilian style, especially if they've had seven years to try.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    In the interest of full disclosure, the Raptors do have an NBA All-Star ( or two ) on the roster already. In the first case, we have not learned how to motivate him. Now don't tell me that we've exhausted all the motivational tools at our disposal. As Don Corleone was said, "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse..," and who knows if Andrea has been offered th opportunity to:

    1.) Save his favourite horse from being slaughtered and left in an oversized bed with Andrea sleeping soundly beside the beast?
    2.) Have sex with his girlfriend in the privacy of the Raptors dressing room during the first ten minutes of each Raptor game, followed by a bowl of pasta before coming into the game as the potential sixth man of the year?
    3.) Pick another carrot or stick from your imagination and feel free to add it to this thread.

    We can all agree that Il Mago has the physical size and the internal electrical synapses needed to do whatever he wants on the offensive side of the game. Now he simply needs to be adequately compensated (carrot) or motivated (stick) until both sides of the equation are happy.

    Am I missing something here?
    Bargnani has never shown "all-NBA" understanding on the defensive end. I'll admit the guy has many OFFENSIVE skills other big men simply don't possess, but he's clueless on the defensive end. This doesn't seem like a motivational issue. It's an neurological/intellectual limitation, IMO. No motivational technique in the world is going to help Bargnani understand when to leave his weak-side man, and step in for the charge.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'll use the flawed p00ka response by appealing to authority to counter a point. Colangelo, a guy who knows much more about basketball than you, is interested in Gay....so that should tell you something

    Anyways, Gay's career shooting numbers look just fine.
    You're misrepresenting my argument about authority, but that's par for your course.

    I don't care what Gay was doing a few years ago. He would have been a great catch then. I care about what he's doing now. NOW is what is relevant when speaking of a player's worth going forward. What about his play right now says he's worth an average of $18M/yr over the next 2.5 years?

    As far as BC being interested: with word all over that Memphis is shopping Gay, we don't know if Memphis made the first call or BC did. If BC did, he's doing what any good GM would do, and inquired about the asking price. The asking price is too high, with the talent we have, so the "interest" is not very high, now is it?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    You're misrepresenting my argument about authority, but that's par for your course.

    I don't care what Gay was doing a few years ago. He would have been a great catch then. I care about what he's doing now. NOW is what is relevant when speaking of a player's worth going forward. What about his play right now says he's worth an average of $18M/yr over the next 2.5 years?

    As far as BC being interested: with word all over that Memphis is shopping Gay, we don't know if Memphis made the first call or BC did. If BC did, he's doing what any good GM would do, and inquired about the asking price. The asking price is too high, with the talent we have, so the "interest" is not very high, now is it?
    I agree that Gay isn't worth his contract. Having said that, very few Raptors are. Bargnani, DeMar, Kleiza, Amir and Fields are all somewhat overpaid relative to the production they provide. Overpaying is what the Raptors do, lol. Spending $17 million on Gay is a lot, but the guy can still play. And with 3 years remaining, if things don't work out in 2 years, he instantly becomes a $19 million trade chip.

    As for evaluating the here and now, fair enough. That's your opinion. Others, myself included, believe that Gay has the physical tools to dominate a basketball game (EDIT: on both ends of the floor), and could use a change of scenery to get it done.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Mon Jan 14th, 2013 at 04:06 PM.
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    I also read dougie's blog this morning. So I'll add my thought's minus the douchiness.

    He was suggesting the trade involved: jose, ross, and one of davis and valanciunas. for gay.

    I would do it.

    jose is jose.

    ross is a high end roll player, with the odds against him that he will ever be able to attack the basket and finish at an nba level (thin frame, poor ball handler, short arms)

    davis (no way valanciunas) only play's well against bird chested ass fellows like himself.

    In the end, there is only so much time you can wait for (middling) talent to develop, and I think that is too long considering we mortgaged a huge part of the future on lowry. people are going to say we can always trade an unhappy lowry, but we won't get fair value for him b/c a)he wants out after playing with developing players b)only a year left on his contract after this year. and if the price is too high GM's will wait until then.

    As a fan, who is completely disgusted with this franchise, and has resigned himself to what little playoff success the craptors can muster. is a job well done, I saw we trot out:

    lowry/lucas
    Derozan
    Gay
    Amir/Bargnani
    Valanciuans/who cares

    And have a good laugh. Move on with our lives. If we're lucky, this summer we'll be able to sign a talented PF as a free agent. Give josh smith or whoever the max or something.

    I realize that I have a rookie in valanciunas there, but I honestly believe he is an elite talent that can get his act together sooner rather than later.

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