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Thread: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Correction: I said his defense and outside shooting are better than DeRozan's.

    EDIT: As for "gutting the team", I would be very hesitant to deal Ross and/or Jonas.
    I'll give you the D. Although if having good teammates is an excuse for lower production for Gay, than being young and still learning the game can be excuses for Demar. It's not like Gay is a lockdown defender.

    As for the shooting. He has a slightly better 3FG%. BUT, since so many people like stats to make their point, Demar has both a higher true shooting %(.515 vs .485) and effective FG%(.452 vs .444). I'll take the latter stats over a guy whose 3FG% has stagnated in the low 30s for the 2nd year in a row.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jan 15th, 2013 at 02:52 PM.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I'll give you the D. Although if having good teammates is an excuse for lower production for Gay, than being young and still learning the game can be excuses for Demar. It's not like Gay is a lockdown defender.

    As for the shooting. He has a slightly better 3FG%. BUT, since so many people like stats to make their point, Demar has both a higher true shooting %(.515 vs .485) and effective FG%(.452 vs .444). I'll take the latter stats over a guy whose 3FG% has stagnated in the low 30s for the 2nd year in a row.
    suspect moment... haha I really need to grow up.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    C'mon now, p00ka. Don't let your arrogance cloud your judgement. Do you have access to advanced, team-specific analytics, one-on-one discussions with other GMs/scouts/coaches, up-close seats to any NBA game played, or video footage (with any camera angle) of every NBA game ever played?

    The guy reads a few blog posts and watches some YouTube videos, and thinks that's all there is to it.
    Responding for your little bro that's tugging at your pants now? LOL. How about responding to my post, to you, where my less than "advanced" need of analytics points out that NBA coaches have never selected him for an All-Star game, and that he's managed to "lead" his current team to NOTHING. In fact a simple analysis says they do better without him, as per my post pointing out how they did better in the playoffs without him, vs the one playoff series they've played with him. Since I'm clueless about "advanced analytics", and couldn't care less, tell me what they say about that simple analysis of the team being better, when it counts, without him, and how he is the answer to leading the Raptors to the promised land..

    Excuse me if my confidence in my knowledge and understanding of the game of basketball is offensive and arrogant to you, but your argument, about what BC has access to, and I don't, is pretty weak.
    1. advanced analytics, advanced smanalytics,,,,, what are they going to tell me that the basic facts don't? See above for his playoff and all-star appearances, and take a look at his current efficiency in shooting, which is equal to AB overall, and equal to DD from the arc, while getting to the line less than DD, and shooting it less efficiency while there? What exactly is elite about him? He's tall and athletic, but what has that translated to? Nothing, in terms of team success.
    2. Do you think BC talks to other coaches around the league about players? Do you actually think their organizations allow their coaches to buddy up to opposing GMs and provide analysis of players? Really?
    3. Talking with other GMs? They no doubt do a lot of talking amongst themselves, but make no mistake that each of these guys is responsible for representing the best interests of their own organization, not the GM on the other end of the line. If they were actually being honest with one another, hell, the GMs wouldn't need all their henchmen and scouts would they? All they'd need to do is call up all their GM buddies to get the scoop on players, lol.

    To use your terminology, the guy........... no, better not.

    Hey, just answer the question of why you think Gay is elite, and why you think he's capable of leading the Raps to the promised land. You said you'd be hesitant to give up Ross or JV for him. Just how strong is your conviction that Gay is such an elite player, seeing as you wouldn't trade a struggling rookie for him?
    Last edited by p00ka; Tue Jan 15th, 2013 at 04:00 PM.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Responding for your little bro that's tugging at your pants now? LOL. How about responding to my post, to you, where my less than "advanced" need of analytics points out that NBA coaches have never selected him for an All-Star game, and that he's managed to "lead" his current team to NOTHING. In fact a simple analysis says they do better without him, as per my post pointing out how they did better in the playoffs without him, vs the one playoff series they've played with him. Since I'm clueless about "advanced analytics", and couldn't care less, tell me what they say about that simple analysis of the team being better, when it counts, without him, and how he is the answer to leading the Raptors to the promised land..

    Excuse me if my confidence in my knowledge and understanding of the game of basketball is offensive and arrogant to you, but your argument, about what BC has access to, and I don't, is pretty weak.
    1. advanced analytics, advanced smanalytics,,,,, what are they going to tell me that the basic facts don't? See above for his playoff and all-star appearances, and take a look at his current efficiency in shooting, which is equal to AB overall, and equal to DD from the arc, while getting to the line less than DD, and shooting it less efficiency while there? What exactly is elite about him? He's tall and athletic, but what has that translated to? Nothing, in terms of team success.
    2. Do you think BC talks to other coaches around the league about players? Do you actually think their organizations allow their coaches to buddy up to opposing GMs and provide analysis of players? Really?
    3. Talking with other GMs? They no doubt do a lot of talking amongst themselves, but make no mistake that each of these guys is responsible for representing the best interests of their own organization, not the GM on the other end of the line. If they were actually being honest with one another, hell, the GMs wouldn't need all their henchmen and scouts would they? All they'd need to do is call up all their GM buddies to get the scoop on players, lol.

    To use your terminology, the guy........... no, better not.

    Hey, just answer the question of why you think Gay is elite, and why you think he's capable of leading the Raps to the promised land. You said you wouldn't give up Ross for him. Just how strong is your conviction that Gay is such an elite player, seeing as you would trade a struggling rookie for him?
    I intentionally ignored your reference to Memphis' team results because drawing conclusions on a single player based on his team's performance seems pretty illogical, doesn't it? "The Cavaliers are 9-31, therefore Kyrie Irving sucks". Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

    As for the lack of all-star appearances, are you suggesting that Gay, as a primary option in the weak Eastern Conference isn't capable of earning an all-star nod?

    Did I say Gay is an "elite" player? I simply said he'd be a big upgrade over any wing currently on our roster. "Elite" is reserved for LeBron, Durant, etc. Regardless, Gay has very few limitations in his game. He can beat his man off the dribble, he can back down defenders, he can run his man off screens, he can pass, he's got mid-range game, he's got outside game (although nobody's confusing him for a sniper), and he can defend.

    Also, I never said I expect Gay to lead anyone to the "promise land" (you love the straw man, don't you?). I'm just looking to upgrade the talent on our roster, and Gay clearly does that.

    And lastly, if we're talking about a Ross-for-Gay deal straight up, I wouldn't hesitate (ignoring the fact that such a trade would never work under the CBA). But if we're talking Jose, Ross, Valanciunas plus picks, yes, that's too rich for my blood because, as I clarified above, Gay isn't an "elite" player.

    But he's a very good player who could help the Raptors immensely.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Jan 15th, 2013 at 04:06 PM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Do you live your real life as a tag-along "little brother", giggling at big brother's exploits too? You know, that weaselly little kid clutching big brother's pant leg?

    I tell you what: how about you try putting on your big boy pants (maybe borrow big brother's, if you have the balls to fit in them) and tell me what BC knows about basketball, and Rudy Gay, that I don't. Note: I totally accept that I know nothing about managing an NBA team, as BC does, but I'm willing to bet I've played and coached far more basketball than BC has.

    Don't just snicker at some misguided snark from my good buddy Nilanka, but tell me what BC knows more about the game of basketball than I, and why my opinion of Rudy Gay is off base.
    Pooka cant take a joke? Want a snugly blanket to make you feel better?

    I've posted way too much on why the Raps need to acquire Gay, if and only if, the cost is right and, if theyre really intent on pursuing him. Otherwise, i really dont want to waste the time of day convincing the Raptors to get him if theyre not even remotely considering it. But media seems to say they were interested, and now theyre not. Time to move on.

    And so if you have played and coached more than BC has? What are you implying? Why would i even try to compare your basketball knowledge to BC? No offense, the guy is earning millions running a basketball team, and youre posting on a forum at mid-day. If i ever find myself seriously criticizing BC's moves then telling myself that i can do better and that im more basketball inept than he is and then convincing everybody else as well, then thats the day i stop posting on RR and time to check myself in a mental institution.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I intentionally ignored your reference to Memphis' team results because drawing conclusions on a single player based on his team's performance seems pretty illogical, doesn't it? "The Cavaliers are 9-31, therefore Kyrie Irving sucks". Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

    As for the lack of all-star appearances, are you suggesting that Gay, as a primary option in the weak Eastern Conference isn't capable of earning an all-star nod?

    Did I say Gay is an "elite" player? I simply said he'd be a big upgrade over any wing currently on our roster. "Elite" is reserved for LeBron, Durant, etc. Regardless, Gay has very few limitations in his game. He can beat his man off the dribble, he can back down defenders, he can run his man off screens, he can pass, he's got mid-range game, he's got outside game (although nobody's confusing him for a sniper), and he can defend.

    Also, I never said I expect Gay to lead anyone to the "promise land" (you love the straw man, don't you?). I'm just looking to upgrade the talent on our roster, and Gay clearly does that.

    And lastly, if we're talking about a Ross-for-Gay deal straight up, I wouldn't hesitate (ignoring the fact that such a trade would never work under the CBA). But if we're talking Jose, Ross, Valanciunas plus picks, yes, that's too rich for my blood because, as I clarified above, Gay isn't an "elite" player.

    But he's a very good player who could help the Raptors immensely.
    Hey big brother, you forgot to mention that Gay is one of the best closers in the NBA, has the ability to take over late in games with crucial shots, something that the Raptors, sorely, sorely need.

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    what a condescending faggot p00ka is, the douchiness discredits whatever point he is trying to make. Or maybe he's doing it on purpose b/c he is a troll.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Hey big brother, you forgot to mention that Gay is one of the best closers in the NBA, has the ability to take over late in games with crucial shots, something that the Raptors, sorely, sorely need.
    Although Lowry looked decent taking over that role last night
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Although Lowry looked decent taking over that role last night
    Beast!!!!

    Problem was, the players around him had no clue how to react.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    what a condescending faggot p00ka is, the douchiness discredits whatever point he is trying to make. Or maybe he's doing it on purpose b/c he is a troll.
    Isn't that too much?He clearly has an opinion and he is trying to back it up. I also don't think that Gay can single handedly lead the Raptors to playoff success but I do think that he would be an upgrade over any wing we have and definitely an upgrade over Derozan - mostly because of his ability to actually take over a game late in the fourth. I actually like Derozan and I wouldn't give up Jose,Derozan and Jonas/Ed/Amir for Gay. This price is too high.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Isn't that too much?He clearly has an opinion and he is trying to back it up. I also don't think that Gay can single handedly lead the Raptors to playoff success but I do think that he would be an upgrade over any wing we have and definitely an upgrade over Derozan - mostly because of his ability to actually take over a game late in the fourth. I actually like Derozan and I wouldn't give up Jose,Derozan and Jonas/Ed/Amir for Gay. This price is too high.
    If it was Jose, DeRozan and one of Amir or Ed would you do it? We have quality back ups for each of those guys with Lowry, Ross and the whichever one of Amir or Ed Mephis doesn't want and Gay would be filling the SF position which has been a position needing an upgrade for a while now. Plus to make salaries match I think Memphis would have to send someone else or a pick back if I'm not mistaken.

    It would be a lot to give up, but considering we'd be holding onto our young players in Ross and JV and frankly there aren't any better players that I'm hearing rumors about being possibly traded to the Raptors I would make this deal.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    If it was Jose, DeRozan and one of Amir or Ed would you do it? We have quality back ups for each of those guys with Lowry, Ross and the whichever one of Amir or Ed Mephis doesn't want and Gay would be filling the SF position which has been a position needing an upgrade for a while now. Plus to make salaries match I think Memphis would have to send someone else or a pick back if I'm not mistaken.

    It would be a lot to give up, but considering we'd be holding onto our young players in Ross and JV and frankly there aren't any better players that I'm hearing rumors about being possibly traded to the Raptors I would make this deal.
    Actually yes - I mean if the return is Gay + pick I would give up Jose,Derozan and Ed (I wouldn't give up Val or Amir). I have read too many trade proposals and scenarios that I don't remember if that actually works salary wise - but if it does I would be willing do make that trade because as mentioned above Gay is superior talent than what we have in all wings and we have Lowry and Amir.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I also read dougie's blog this morning. So I'll add my thought's minus the douchiness.

    He was suggesting the trade involved: jose, ross, and one of davis and valanciunas. for gay.

    I would do it.
    I too would strongly consider Jose Calderon, Terrence Ross, and Ed Davis to be a fair price for Rudy Gay.

    I would be very sad to see Jose go but frankly I don't see enough minutes at the point guard position for both him and Lowry. I am not sold on Lowry being the better of the two players right now but Kyle is younger and is less of a risk as to declining production in a 2 year projection.

    Terrence Ross looks like he has a chance of becoming a good player but nothing indicates he will be something really special. I think there will be sufficient opportunities to pick up someone at near the same talent level.

    I am not that big a fan of Ed Davis and I really don't see the defensive stud many see, far from it. On the other hand, he improved last season (finding open space in the offense) and this year (knocking shots from that open space) and that tells me something about his work ethics. But he's still very thin two seasons after lack of strength was identified as a problem... I like him as a 20-24 mpg player but more than that and I am beyond my comfort level.

    Rudy Gay is a better player than any of the three players listed above. His Value Over Replacement is also higher than the 3 players listed above.

    I hate his contract and while I am not a fan of Rudy Gay, I think it's a fair trade.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    JV, Ross and Lowry are the only ones i wouldnt trade for Gay.

    If they want Ross, Id make them take Bargnani too. Send a pick back or a young talent. Of course salaries should match.

    Actually, edit that. Id trade Jose and Demar for Gay, then package Ross with Bargnani for an SG or PF. Id rather package Ed with Bargs but if no takers then Ross.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Jan 16th, 2013 at 02:46 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I would be very sad to see Jose go but frankly I don't see enough minutes at the point guard position for both him and Lowry. I am not sold on Lowry being the better of the two players right now but Kyle is younger and is less of a risk as to declining production in a 2 year projection.
    And let's not forget that Calderon happens to be playing the best ball of his career in a contract year. I don't think that's a coincidence.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    JV, Ross and Lowry are the only ones i wouldnt trade for Gay.

    If they want Ross, Id make them take Bargnani too. Send a pick back or a young talent. Of course salaries should match.

    Actually, edit that. Id trade Jose and Demar for Gay, then package Ross with Bargnani for an SG or PF. Id rather package Ed with Bargs but if no takers then Ross.
    Each team values their own talent differently but I would assume that Memphis is taking a page from OKC and is going to ask for the moon for Gay (deservedly or not).

    Harden was traded for Martin (expiring contract), Lamb (rookie), two first rounders (from Toronto and Dallas) and a 2nd rounder (from Charlotte). Houston also got Aldrich, Hayward and Cook to make salaries match but that's a lot of assets going the other way.

    If Memphis is looking for a similar value for Gay then you would have to consider Jose (expiring) for sure. Then either Ross or JV since they are the rooks (to mirror Lamb). Since the Raptors have no first rounder to offer they would have to give up then another rookie/young player (like Ed) and even then that might not be enough considering OKC got 2 first rounders and a rookie.

    I don't think Gay is any where near as good as Harden but Memphis is going to be asking for a lot. If Bargnani was added to the table Memphis would get a pretty good laugh before they slam the phone.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    And let's not forget that Calderon happens to be playing the best ball of his career in a contract year. I don't think that's a coincidence.
    Jose is playing the best ball of his career? You could have fooled me as I thought he was playing better than this in 2006-07 through 2008-09.

    The guy is actually pretty good.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Jose is playing the best ball of his career? You could have fooled me as I thought he was playing better than this in 2006-07 through 2008-09.

    The guy is actually pretty good.
    Not to mention, the LEAST likely guy to be proverbially "playing for a contract". That would be totally out of character.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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