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  • #31
    ebrian wrote: View Post
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    Well, there are obvious ones.....LeBron, KD, Melo, Harden, CP3, D-Rose....A cornerstone is a talent who's capable of elevating his team and help the whole be more than the sum of its parts.

    A couple of thoughts. First, I'm a believer that if you don't have that kind of obvious franchise talent, then your "cornerstone(s)" are likely either a solid big who has a solid defensive impact, or a PG who runs your team well. Think Detroit last decade. Now, doesn't mean no one will be an all-star, including your wings, but that your wings likely aren't the biggest difference makers on either end of the court. Now, don't tell me Detroit wasn't relevant.
    Of course the flip side is it's near impossible to win a trophy without one true franchise talent. Detroit was the best team in the east for nearly a decade, but only won one trophy, and Billups had a great playoff run that year. Another team like this was Cleveland waay back in the day (like Mark Price days), or even Portland around 2000, when they had a deep, very talented team, but no true franchise player (partly because of some being too old for that. A younger Sabonis or Pippen would have never let that lead slip away against LA). So I do think, in theory, that the Raptors need to find a way to acquire that kind of player at some point. But Rudy Gay is not that player. Getting him is not similar to Houston getting Harden.

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    • #32
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      Well, there are obvious ones.....LeBron, KD, Melo, Harden, CP3, D-Rose....A cornerstone is a talent who's capable of elevating his team and help the whole be more than the sum of its parts.

      A couple of thoughts. First, I'm a believer that if you don't have that kind of obvious franchise talent, then your "cornerstone(s)" are likely either a solid big who has a solid defensive impact, or a PG who runs your team well. Think Detroit last decade. Now, doesn't mean no one will be an all-star, including your wings, but that your wings likely aren't the biggest difference makers on either end of the court. Now, don't tell me Detroit wasn't relevant.
      Of course the flip side is it's near impossible to win a trophy without one true franchise talent. Detroit was the best team in the east for nearly a decade, but only won one trophy, and Billups had a great playoff run that year. Another team like this was Cleveland waay back in the day (like Mark Price days), or even Portland around 2000, when they had a deep, very talented team, but no true franchise player (partly because of some being too old for that. A younger Sabonis or Pippen would have never let that lead slip away against LA). So I do think, in theory, that the Raptors need to find a way to acquire that kind of player at some point. But Rudy Gay is not that player. Getting him is not similar to Houston getting Harden.
      I think it's valid to mention that either 4 of the 5 starters for Detroit if not all 5 were All Stars, so even though none of them might have been considered a franchise talent the group of them together were in a way a gathering of elite players.

      Just something to consider....if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol. I don't want to get into how Memphis is a half court team and Gay's game is more suited to an uptempo style like Houston, OKC and what Toronto wants to be because I'm sure you've already considered that, but it's a valid factor when projecting how Gay might impact the Raptors should a trade happen.

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      • #33
        Nilanka wrote: View Post
        I'll use the flawed p00ka response by appealing to authority to counter a point. Colangelo, a guy who knows much more about basketball than you, is interested in Gay....so that should tell you something

        Anyways, Gay's career shooting numbers look just fine.
        hahaha Kaboom!

        I felt that slap in the face from way over here.

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        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol.
          My thoughts exactly. We need to look past his PPG numbers, and actually watch this guy play. He's a very skilled small forward who would instantly be our best player.

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          • #35
            TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
            hahaha Kaboom!

            I felt that slap in the face from way over here.
            Do you live your real life as a tag-along "little brother", giggling at big brother's exploits too? You know, that weaselly little kid clutching big brother's pant leg?

            I tell you what: how about you try putting on your big boy pants (maybe borrow big brother's, if you have the balls to fit in them) and tell me what BC knows about basketball, and Rudy Gay, that I don't. Note: I totally accept that I know nothing about managing an NBA team, as BC does, but I'm willing to bet I've played and coached far more basketball than BC has.

            Don't just snicker at some misguided snark from my good buddy Nilanka, but tell me what BC knows more about the game of basketball than I, and why my opinion of Rudy Gay is off base.

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            • #36
              Nilanka wrote: View Post
              My thoughts exactly. We need to look past his PPG numbers, and actually watch this guy play. He's a very skilled small forward who would instantly be our best player.
              Good enough to lead the Raps to the promised land, while gutting our team of it's most promising young talents, and killing cap space for the next few years? In his 7th year, how many All-Star games has he played in? How many playoff series, even with Gasol and Z-Bo as a supporting cast? Two years ago, WITHOUT him, the Griz beat the Spurs and extended OKC to the 7th game. Last year, with him in his first playoff appearance, they went down in the first round to the Clippers, who were then swept 0-4 by the Spurs. What in this story says he can lead the Raps to the promised land, while gutting the team?

              PS. i noticed in another post that you spoke of Gay being a good outside shooter and defender. Perhaps you should watch him more than you do, because he's not that good at either.

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              • #37
                p00ka wrote: View Post
                tell me what BC knows about basketball, and Rudy Gay, that I don't.
                C'mon now, p00ka. Don't let your arrogance cloud your judgement. Do you have access to advanced, team-specific analytics, one-on-one discussions with other GMs/scouts/coaches, up-close seats to any NBA game played, or video footage (with any camera angle) of every NBA game ever played?

                The guy reads a few blog posts and watches some YouTube videos, and thinks that's all there is to it.

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                • #38
                  p00ka wrote: View Post
                  PS. i noticed in another post that you spoke of Gay being a good outside shooter and defender. Perhaps you should watch him more than you do, because he's not that good at either.
                  Correction: I said his defense and outside shooting are better than DeRozan's.

                  EDIT: As for "gutting the team", I would be very hesitant to deal Ross and/or Jonas.
                  Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Jan 15, 2013, 02:54 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                    I think it's valid to mention that either 4 of the 5 starters for Detroit if not all 5 were All Stars, so even though none of them might have been considered a franchise talent the group of them together were in a way a gathering of elite players.

                    Just something to consider....if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol. I don't want to get into how Memphis is a half court team and Gay's game is more suited to an uptempo style like Houston, OKC and what Toronto wants to be because I'm sure you've already considered that, but it's a valid factor when projecting how Gay might impact the Raptors should a trade happen.
                    Already been over this in another thread. Gay has the highest usage rate on his team. Harden had the 3rd highest in OKC. So people thinking he would be better as a 1st option don't realize he already is one.
                    As for style of play, Gay is suited for uptempo style how, because he can dunk? I mean, everyone is suited to getting easy baskets. Gay is not a guy who can lead a fast break. He's a slasher. He would benefit from it no more than Ross or Demar.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                      You could be right Pong, I'm not saying Bledsoe is a lock to be a franchise talent, but imo he has a shot at being really good and might be a good investment for a team looking to buy low before he possibly blows up. If he gets a consistent shot and you add that to his existing athletecism...watch out.
                      Oh yea Bledsoe is definitely talent. If i didn't mention previously, I think he'd be a good addition to the team. If we're to build around the nucleus of him and Gay, we'd definitely need a legitimate spot up shooter. Ross might become one. Bledsoe could probably excel playing with the likes of Ed and Amir (assuming these guys are on the raps still after acquiring Bledsoe) since Clips only play with athletic big men.

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                      • #41
                        Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        Correction: I said his defense and outside shooting are better than DeRozan's.

                        EDIT: As for "gutting the team", I would be very hesitant to deal Ross and/or Jonas.
                        I'll give you the D. Although if having good teammates is an excuse for lower production for Gay, than being young and still learning the game can be excuses for Demar. It's not like Gay is a lockdown defender.

                        As for the shooting. He has a slightly better 3FG%. BUT, since so many people like stats to make their point, Demar has both a higher true shooting %(.515 vs .485) and effective FG%(.452 vs .444). I'll take the latter stats over a guy whose 3FG% has stagnated in the low 30s for the 2nd year in a row.
                        Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jan 15, 2013, 03:52 PM.

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                        • #42
                          white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          I'll give you the D. Although if having good teammates is an excuse for lower production for Gay, than being young and still learning the game can be excuses for Demar. It's not like Gay is a lockdown defender.

                          As for the shooting. He has a slightly better 3FG%. BUT, since so many people like stats to make their point, Demar has both a higher true shooting %(.515 vs .485) and effective FG%(.452 vs .444). I'll take the latter stats over a guy whose 3FG% has stagnated in the low 30s for the 2nd year in a row.
                          suspect moment... haha I really need to grow up.

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                          • #43
                            Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            C'mon now, p00ka. Don't let your arrogance cloud your judgement. Do you have access to advanced, team-specific analytics, one-on-one discussions with other GMs/scouts/coaches, up-close seats to any NBA game played, or video footage (with any camera angle) of every NBA game ever played?

                            The guy reads a few blog posts and watches some YouTube videos, and thinks that's all there is to it.
                            Responding for your little bro that's tugging at your pants now? LOL. How about responding to my post, to you, where my less than "advanced" need of analytics points out that NBA coaches have never selected him for an All-Star game, and that he's managed to "lead" his current team to NOTHING. In fact a simple analysis says they do better without him, as per my post pointing out how they did better in the playoffs without him, vs the one playoff series they've played with him. Since I'm clueless about "advanced analytics", and couldn't care less, tell me what they say about that simple analysis of the team being better, when it counts, without him, and how he is the answer to leading the Raptors to the promised land..

                            Excuse me if my confidence in my knowledge and understanding of the game of basketball is offensive and arrogant to you, but your argument, about what BC has access to, and I don't, is pretty weak.
                            1. advanced analytics, advanced smanalytics,,,,, what are they going to tell me that the basic facts don't? See above for his playoff and all-star appearances, and take a look at his current efficiency in shooting, which is equal to AB overall, and equal to DD from the arc, while getting to the line less than DD, and shooting it less efficiency while there? What exactly is elite about him? He's tall and athletic, but what has that translated to? Nothing, in terms of team success.
                            2. Do you think BC talks to other coaches around the league about players? Do you actually think their organizations allow their coaches to buddy up to opposing GMs and provide analysis of players? Really?
                            3. Talking with other GMs? They no doubt do a lot of talking amongst themselves, but make no mistake that each of these guys is responsible for representing the best interests of their own organization, not the GM on the other end of the line. If they were actually being honest with one another, hell, the GMs wouldn't need all their henchmen and scouts would they? All they'd need to do is call up all their GM buddies to get the scoop on players, lol.

                            To use your terminology, the guy........... no, better not.

                            Hey, just answer the question of why you think Gay is elite, and why you think he's capable of leading the Raps to the promised land. You said you'd be hesitant to give up Ross or JV for him. Just how strong is your conviction that Gay is such an elite player, seeing as you wouldn't trade a struggling rookie for him?
                            Last edited by p00ka; Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:00 PM.

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                            • #44
                              p00ka wrote: View Post
                              Responding for your little bro that's tugging at your pants now? LOL. How about responding to my post, to you, where my less than "advanced" need of analytics points out that NBA coaches have never selected him for an All-Star game, and that he's managed to "lead" his current team to NOTHING. In fact a simple analysis says they do better without him, as per my post pointing out how they did better in the playoffs without him, vs the one playoff series they've played with him. Since I'm clueless about "advanced analytics", and couldn't care less, tell me what they say about that simple analysis of the team being better, when it counts, without him, and how he is the answer to leading the Raptors to the promised land..

                              Excuse me if my confidence in my knowledge and understanding of the game of basketball is offensive and arrogant to you, but your argument, about what BC has access to, and I don't, is pretty weak.
                              1. advanced analytics, advanced smanalytics,,,,, what are they going to tell me that the basic facts don't? See above for his playoff and all-star appearances, and take a look at his current efficiency in shooting, which is equal to AB overall, and equal to DD from the arc, while getting to the line less than DD, and shooting it less efficiency while there? What exactly is elite about him? He's tall and athletic, but what has that translated to? Nothing, in terms of team success.
                              2. Do you think BC talks to other coaches around the league about players? Do you actually think their organizations allow their coaches to buddy up to opposing GMs and provide analysis of players? Really?
                              3. Talking with other GMs? They no doubt do a lot of talking amongst themselves, but make no mistake that each of these guys is responsible for representing the best interests of their own organization, not the GM on the other end of the line. If they were actually being honest with one another, hell, the GMs wouldn't need all their henchmen and scouts would they? All they'd need to do is call up all their GM buddies to get the scoop on players, lol.

                              To use your terminology, the guy........... no, better not.

                              Hey, just answer the question of why you think Gay is elite, and why you think he's capable of leading the Raps to the promised land. You said you wouldn't give up Ross for him. Just how strong is your conviction that Gay is such an elite player, seeing as you would trade a struggling rookie for him?
                              I intentionally ignored your reference to Memphis' team results because drawing conclusions on a single player based on his team's performance seems pretty illogical, doesn't it? "The Cavaliers are 9-31, therefore Kyrie Irving sucks". Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

                              As for the lack of all-star appearances, are you suggesting that Gay, as a primary option in the weak Eastern Conference isn't capable of earning an all-star nod?

                              Did I say Gay is an "elite" player? I simply said he'd be a big upgrade over any wing currently on our roster. "Elite" is reserved for LeBron, Durant, etc. Regardless, Gay has very few limitations in his game. He can beat his man off the dribble, he can back down defenders, he can run his man off screens, he can pass, he's got mid-range game, he's got outside game (although nobody's confusing him for a sniper), and he can defend.

                              Also, I never said I expect Gay to lead anyone to the "promise land" (you love the straw man, don't you?). I'm just looking to upgrade the talent on our roster, and Gay clearly does that.

                              And lastly, if we're talking about a Ross-for-Gay deal straight up, I wouldn't hesitate (ignoring the fact that such a trade would never work under the CBA). But if we're talking Jose, Ross, Valanciunas plus picks, yes, that's too rich for my blood because, as I clarified above, Gay isn't an "elite" player.

                              But he's a very good player who could help the Raptors immensely.
                              Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Jan 15, 2013, 05:06 PM.

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                              • #45
                                p00ka wrote: View Post
                                Do you live your real life as a tag-along "little brother", giggling at big brother's exploits too? You know, that weaselly little kid clutching big brother's pant leg?

                                I tell you what: how about you try putting on your big boy pants (maybe borrow big brother's, if you have the balls to fit in them) and tell me what BC knows about basketball, and Rudy Gay, that I don't. Note: I totally accept that I know nothing about managing an NBA team, as BC does, but I'm willing to bet I've played and coached far more basketball than BC has.

                                Don't just snicker at some misguided snark from my good buddy Nilanka, but tell me what BC knows more about the game of basketball than I, and why my opinion of Rudy Gay is off base.
                                Pooka cant take a joke? Want a snugly blanket to make you feel better?

                                I've posted way too much on why the Raps need to acquire Gay, if and only if, the cost is right and, if theyre really intent on pursuing him. Otherwise, i really dont want to waste the time of day convincing the Raptors to get him if theyre not even remotely considering it. But media seems to say they were interested, and now theyre not. Time to move on.

                                And so if you have played and coached more than BC has? What are you implying? Why would i even try to compare your basketball knowledge to BC? No offense, the guy is earning millions running a basketball team, and youre posting on a forum at mid-day. If i ever find myself seriously criticizing BC's moves then telling myself that i can do better and that im more basketball inept than he is and then convincing everybody else as well, then thats the day i stop posting on RR and time to check myself in a mental institution.

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