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Thread: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    You have also missed my solution for the second all-star that the Raptors already have on the roster. I'll save my formula for helping that man to blossom until someone tells me that Andrea has truly been motivated, Sicilian style, especially if they've had seven years to try.
    Oh boy, I can't wait.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    The only thing this fanbase should be concerned about is where Bargs fits. The team is just starting to gel, and then now amidst the trade rumours, we want / wish for things to be broken up. This is a great group of guys - let them gel for a bit.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'm currently on the band wagon with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Lin together.
    I don't think that Houston would have signed Lin if they'd known about the Harden deal at the time; but Harden is clearly a great pickup for them. I remember hearing somewhere, a few months ago, that Toronto were in that Harden discussion and Presti wanted Valanciunas. At the time (this was before the season started, before we saw Harden playing so well) I was glad it didn't happen. Now, I'd do that in a heartbeat.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    I'd say it's a guy who can be the best player on the floor, for at least one game, when playing against anyone else, when the stakes of that game are high.

    For example, Rondo can be better than Lebron when they're playing high stakes games. Is he always better player than James? Of course not. But he can raise his game up to that highest level, so I would call Rondo a cornerstone.

    On the other hand, as much as I enjoy seeing DeMar's improvement this year, I cannot imagine that he will ever be able to outplay any of the best players for even a single game when it matters.

    Other cornerstones right now: Durant, Paul, Westbrook, Kobe, Anthony, Nowitzki, Duncan (maybe still?), D Rose, Kyrie, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard (I'll keep him here for the moment, but bad backs can be brutal), Noah, Randolph, Love, Rubio, Bynum (an injury prone cornerstone, the worst kind).

    Potential cornerstones: Paul George, Steph Curry, Marc Gasol, Anthony Davis, Batum, Lillard, MKG, Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe, Monroe, and a bunch of other dudes with much slimmer chances (and I'd put Ross and Valanciunas in this category, with Ross ahead of Valanciunas).

    And I agree with Mediumcore, I think you do whatever it takes to get any of these guys. You overpay for these guys.

  5. #25
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    In my Gay and Bledsoe pairing it's Bledsoe that I think will be the star. I'm really excited about his game and I think he will break out in a starting role as Harden did this season. There is no comaring him with Bargnani because it took Bargs 6 or 7 years to show All Star talent, but Bledsoe is showing it in his 3rd season...as a back up...and he was injured for much of his second year I beleive. Needless to say I love Bledsoe's game and just have a really good feeling about him in starting role and given the reigns to his own team.
    Bledsoes offensive game is incomplete. He's not a good shooter and currently relies on his godly athleticism to attack the rim. He's perfect as the backup pg in LAC due to the plethora of good shooters on their team (Crawford, Barnes, hill, green, butler). An energy guy who's brought in to draw a couple fouls, disrupt the opponent's offence and grab the occasional offensive rebound (which amazes me every time he does considering his height). He hasn't shown any significant playmaking ability aside from drive and kicks. Harden on the other hand had already proven playmaking and shotmaking ability. His game was already dangerously close to Manu playing as the 6th man to Westbrook and Durant. He's essentially Black Manu

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Rookie Jkwasia's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I also read dougie's blog this morning. So I'll add my thought's minus the douchiness.

    He was suggesting the trade involved: jose, ross, and one of davis and valanciunas. for gay.

    I would do it.

    jose is jose.

    ross is a high end roll player, with the odds against him that he will ever be able to attack the basket and finish at an nba level (thin frame, poor ball handler, short arms)

    davis (no way valanciunas) only play's well against bird chested ass fellows like himself.

    In the end, there is only so much time you can wait for (middling) talent to develop, and I think that is too long considering we mortgaged a huge part of the future on lowry. people are going to say we can always trade an unhappy lowry, but we won't get fair value for him b/c a)he wants out after playing with developing players b)only a year left on his contract after this year. and if the price is too high GM's will wait until then.

    As a fan, who is completely disgusted with this franchise, and has resigned himself to what little playoff success the craptors can muster. is a job well done, I saw we trot out:

    lowry/lucas
    Derozan
    Gay
    Amir/Bargnani
    Valanciuans/who cares

    And have a good laugh. Move on with our lives. If we're lucky, this summer we'll be able to sign a talented PF as a free agent. Give josh smith or whoever the max or something.

    I realize that I have a rookie in valanciunas there, but I honestly believe he is an elite talent that can get his act together sooner rather than later.

    +1 Lmao I like the second unit minus bargs/and Dribbles 2.0.........

    Watching yesterday's game should have told Raptor fans on here something about this team ......the Raptors are not good enough! The lack the TALENT to compete with REAL teams......They lack the Go-to-guy,the shot creator,(not the two dribble pull up pasta boy does) For BC not to trade for gay when your giving up bench players is ludicrous jose davis and ross are all bench players at best...mediocre talent gets you nowhere .....this run against weaker competition has you guys delusional notice we have lost every half decent team we have played this year?! exempt Houston.... We need top tier talent and if you guys think Gay isn't top tier just know he is instantly the best player on the raps by a mile .....shows how weak this team is. 0.o

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    Bledsoes offensive game is incomplete. He's not a good shooter and currently relies on his godly athleticism to attack the rim. He's perfect as the backup pg in LAC due to the plethora of good shooters on their team (Crawford, Barnes, hill, green, butler). An energy guy who's brought in to draw a couple fouls, disrupt the opponent's offence and grab the occasional offensive rebound (which amazes me every time he does considering his height). He hasn't shown any significant playmaking ability aside from drive and kicks. Harden on the other hand had already proven playmaking and shotmaking ability. His game was already dangerously close to Manu playing as the 6th man to Westbrook and Durant. He's essentially Black Manu
    You just described D.Wade's game to a tee. Just remember that he's just in this third season and was injured for much of his second year. He has a long way to go before you see the finished product but he's got a lot going for himself already as you described. Also if he was already a bonafied star ther would be no way the Clips would let him go. We have to take a chance on an unproven commodity that the organization evaluates and deems can be successful in a starting role on our team.

  8. #28
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You just described D.Wade's game to a tee. Just remember that he's just in this third season and was injured for much of his second year. He has a long way to go before you see the finished product but he's got a lot going for himself already as you described. Also if he was already a bonafied star ther would be no way the Clips would let him go. We have to take a chance on an unproven commodity that the organization evaluates and deems can be successful in a starting role on our team.
    Couple of things I'd like to point out. There are tons of NBA players who use their athleticism to attack the rim (albeit bledsoe is probably top tier in terms of athleticism), but that does not mean they have the same style of play as dwade. Wade was a great(not as good as he is now) ball handler and playmaker out of school, both of which are just average for bledsoe. Second, wade's a 2 guard, bledsoe's a 1. Unless this team gets some studs to fill the other positions, I rather not have a slasher as the primary point man. OKC can pull it off with Westbrook (though westbrook has become a much better shooter now) at point because Durant can knock down shots anywhere on the court even with defenders on him. Gay is a good shooter but no where near Durant's level. His 3pt shooting has actually been pretty bad the last 2 years.

    And finally, as for acquiring Bledsoe i've read somewhere that LAC is pretty adamant on keeping him until they can secure CP3 who'll be a FA this summer. So it'll be tough to swing a deal for him. And if we do get him Jose will likely not be around which is unfortunate because he'd make a good mentor for him.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    You could be right Pong, I'm not saying Bledsoe is a lock to be a franchise talent, but imo he has a shot at being really good and might be a good investment for a team looking to buy low before he possibly blows up. If he gets a consistent shot and you add that to his existing athletecism...watch out.

    BTW, I never thought about comparing him to Westbrook, and I know there games are different, but they both have that go all out, play at lightning speed thing happening for him. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    From what I've read the Clippers are not going to trade Bledsoe until the off season. Paul is a free agent and if he signs elsewhere then they would be screwed if they gave up Bledsoe now. However if Paul stays then I would love to have a guy like Bledsoe on the Raptors. That's the type of PG I was hoping for last year. A young PG with potential that can play along side a veteran. Similar to the relationship Lawson and Miller have in Denver.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Is anyone? Honestly I don't even know what a cornserstone is.
    Well, there are obvious ones.....LeBron, KD, Melo, Harden, CP3, D-Rose....A cornerstone is a talent who's capable of elevating his team and help the whole be more than the sum of its parts.

    A couple of thoughts. First, I'm a believer that if you don't have that kind of obvious franchise talent, then your "cornerstone(s)" are likely either a solid big who has a solid defensive impact, or a PG who runs your team well. Think Detroit last decade. Now, doesn't mean no one will be an all-star, including your wings, but that your wings likely aren't the biggest difference makers on either end of the court. Now, don't tell me Detroit wasn't relevant.
    Of course the flip side is it's near impossible to win a trophy without one true franchise talent. Detroit was the best team in the east for nearly a decade, but only won one trophy, and Billups had a great playoff run that year. Another team like this was Cleveland waay back in the day (like Mark Price days), or even Portland around 2000, when they had a deep, very talented team, but no true franchise player (partly because of some being too old for that. A younger Sabonis or Pippen would have never let that lead slip away against LA). So I do think, in theory, that the Raptors need to find a way to acquire that kind of player at some point. But Rudy Gay is not that player. Getting him is not similar to Houston getting Harden.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well, there are obvious ones.....LeBron, KD, Melo, Harden, CP3, D-Rose....A cornerstone is a talent who's capable of elevating his team and help the whole be more than the sum of its parts.

    A couple of thoughts. First, I'm a believer that if you don't have that kind of obvious franchise talent, then your "cornerstone(s)" are likely either a solid big who has a solid defensive impact, or a PG who runs your team well. Think Detroit last decade. Now, doesn't mean no one will be an all-star, including your wings, but that your wings likely aren't the biggest difference makers on either end of the court. Now, don't tell me Detroit wasn't relevant.
    Of course the flip side is it's near impossible to win a trophy without one true franchise talent. Detroit was the best team in the east for nearly a decade, but only won one trophy, and Billups had a great playoff run that year. Another team like this was Cleveland waay back in the day (like Mark Price days), or even Portland around 2000, when they had a deep, very talented team, but no true franchise player (partly because of some being too old for that. A younger Sabonis or Pippen would have never let that lead slip away against LA). So I do think, in theory, that the Raptors need to find a way to acquire that kind of player at some point. But Rudy Gay is not that player. Getting him is not similar to Houston getting Harden.
    I think it's valid to mention that either 4 of the 5 starters for Detroit if not all 5 were All Stars, so even though none of them might have been considered a franchise talent the group of them together were in a way a gathering of elite players.

    Just something to consider....if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol. I don't want to get into how Memphis is a half court team and Gay's game is more suited to an uptempo style like Houston, OKC and what Toronto wants to be because I'm sure you've already considered that, but it's a valid factor when projecting how Gay might impact the Raptors should a trade happen.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'll use the flawed p00ka response by appealing to authority to counter a point. Colangelo, a guy who knows much more about basketball than you, is interested in Gay....so that should tell you something

    Anyways, Gay's career shooting numbers look just fine.
    hahaha Kaboom!

    I felt that slap in the face from way over here.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol.
    My thoughts exactly. We need to look past his PPG numbers, and actually watch this guy play. He's a very skilled small forward who would instantly be our best player.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    hahaha Kaboom!

    I felt that slap in the face from way over here.
    Do you live your real life as a tag-along "little brother", giggling at big brother's exploits too? You know, that weaselly little kid clutching big brother's pant leg?

    I tell you what: how about you try putting on your big boy pants (maybe borrow big brother's, if you have the balls to fit in them) and tell me what BC knows about basketball, and Rudy Gay, that I don't. Note: I totally accept that I know nothing about managing an NBA team, as BC does, but I'm willing to bet I've played and coached far more basketball than BC has.

    Don't just snicker at some misguided snark from my good buddy Nilanka, but tell me what BC knows more about the game of basketball than I, and why my opinion of Rudy Gay is off base.

  16. #36
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    My thoughts exactly. We need to look past his PPG numbers, and actually watch this guy play. He's a very skilled small forward who would instantly be our best player.
    Good enough to lead the Raps to the promised land, while gutting our team of it's most promising young talents, and killing cap space for the next few years? In his 7th year, how many All-Star games has he played in? How many playoff series, even with Gasol and Z-Bo as a supporting cast? Two years ago, WITHOUT him, the Griz beat the Spurs and extended OKC to the 7th game. Last year, with him in his first playoff appearance, they went down in the first round to the Clippers, who were then swept 0-4 by the Spurs. What in this story says he can lead the Raps to the promised land, while gutting the team?

    PS. i noticed in another post that you spoke of Gay being a good outside shooter and defender. Perhaps you should watch him more than you do, because he's not that good at either.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    tell me what BC knows about basketball, and Rudy Gay, that I don't.
    C'mon now, p00ka. Don't let your arrogance cloud your judgement. Do you have access to advanced, team-specific analytics, one-on-one discussions with other GMs/scouts/coaches, up-close seats to any NBA game played, or video footage (with any camera angle) of every NBA game ever played?

    The guy reads a few blog posts and watches some YouTube videos, and thinks that's all there is to it.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    PS. i noticed in another post that you spoke of Gay being a good outside shooter and defender. Perhaps you should watch him more than you do, because he's not that good at either.
    Correction: I said his defense and outside shooting are better than DeRozan's.

    EDIT: As for "gutting the team", I would be very hesitant to deal Ross and/or Jonas.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Tue Jan 15th, 2013 at 01:54 PM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I think it's valid to mention that either 4 of the 5 starters for Detroit if not all 5 were All Stars, so even though none of them might have been considered a franchise talent the group of them together were in a way a gathering of elite players.

    Just something to consider....if Harden were to return to OKC as a starter would he be putting up the same numbers he's putting up in Houston at the moment? Probably not considering he would be differing to other high calibre players. Same could be said for Gay if he were to have his "own" team where he is the man and not differing to Z-Bo and Gasol. I don't want to get into how Memphis is a half court team and Gay's game is more suited to an uptempo style like Houston, OKC and what Toronto wants to be because I'm sure you've already considered that, but it's a valid factor when projecting how Gay might impact the Raptors should a trade happen.
    Already been over this in another thread. Gay has the highest usage rate on his team. Harden had the 3rd highest in OKC. So people thinking he would be better as a 1st option don't realize he already is one.
    As for style of play, Gay is suited for uptempo style how, because he can dunk? I mean, everyone is suited to getting easy baskets. Gay is not a guy who can lead a fast break. He's a slasher. He would benefit from it no more than Ross or Demar.

  20. #40
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You could be right Pong, I'm not saying Bledsoe is a lock to be a franchise talent, but imo he has a shot at being really good and might be a good investment for a team looking to buy low before he possibly blows up. If he gets a consistent shot and you add that to his existing athletecism...watch out.
    Oh yea Bledsoe is definitely talent. If i didn't mention previously, I think he'd be a good addition to the team. If we're to build around the nucleus of him and Gay, we'd definitely need a legitimate spot up shooter. Ross might become one. Bledsoe could probably excel playing with the likes of Ed and Amir (assuming these guys are on the raps still after acquiring Bledsoe) since Clips only play with athletic big men.

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