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Thread: Doubting Derozan?

  1. #21
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    he is rodney stuckey. I hate rodney stuckey as a player.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Other than C's and PF's, rebounds are a very non-valuable stat towards a player IMO. Don't know why you're getting so hyped up over this.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Depends on how we define "starting quality SG". I don't see him being skilled enough to start on a contending team.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ball4life wrote: View Post
    Is anyone else having doubts on the "progress" of Derozan.
    I really think he is going to be causing another Bragnani situation for us and needs to be out of here while he is at his peak right now for good returns.

    agree? or make me a believer!!
    I am a big critic of DeMar and I recognize all of his limitations, but comparing him with Bargnani is cold. He had a bad game. He has improved a tonne from last season. He is never going to be a #1 or #2 guy though.

    If you look across the league there are not many very elite SG's. Wade/Kobe/Ginobili are all old and will leave the game soon. JJ/Iggy/JR Smith are now vets and wouldn't really be considered elite anyway. Outside of Harden and Gordon (who is always injured) I can't really see a young SG that will be a game changer. I'd put DeMar in the same class as Mayo, Afflalo, Matthews and Turner. And you could convince yourself quite easily that DeMar is just as good as they are (well maybe not Mayo who I like).

    The problem with DeMar is that he will have a hard time living up to his contract (just like Jose was/is or Bargnani was/is). However that is because he works for a GM that is very generous. And if you take the contract completely out of the equation then DeMar is fine. I would have no issue packaging him up in a trade to get an upgrade, but he's also not someone that I would give away because he's costing the team wins.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    He looked like a rookie last night. It was depressing. And if I'm the coaching staff I say "DeMar, next you take a step-back jumper with a foot on the three point line, you're sitting for the rest of the half, you been told repeatedly that this is the worst shot in basketball."

  6. #26
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    Totally agree. I said it before and I will say it now. If Raptors is about to become a serious team ever, it will happen without Bargs and DD. Actually, only JV is a sure case key player to start building around while I'm not yet sure about Ross, but he might be as well.

    And Calderon could be a good peace if he would be 7 years younger and would have a good coach who would simply say - you are here to create and pass fella, not to shoot. Actually the last thing I wrote is the key to answer the question why all Raptors organization is so lost. They simply don't understand the culture of basketball, they still walking in the outside. If they will ever realise they only have to add one or two peaces next to JV and raptors will have a strong playoffs team, but currently Raptors organization is blind.
    Last edited by BalticGiants; Wed Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:22 AM.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    And every time you run someone over with an offensive foul you have a player thinking twice next time. That leads to either a moment of indecision which may mean they get into position a split second too late, or perhaps they avoid the contact altogether which leaves an open lane. Aside from that, offensive fouls mean contact and that contact can result in defensive fouls. (ie. 50/50 calls going to offensive player)

    Tough aggressive players get offensive fouls. It comes with the territory. Would love to see Demar getting a couple a game because he's being aggresive.
    yes a knee to the mid-section is contact.. but it will never be a defensive foul.. and sorry im not big on turnovers so id have to disagree.. u can be aggressive offensively and be smart at the same time.. take what they give u.. yeah embrace contact when ur going hard to the rim but dont run people over if they are in position and u could just as easily pull up or pass.. aggressively charging the rim with ur head down and heaving the ball at the backboard is not a good play
    Last edited by FoxMachine; Wed Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:23 AM.

  8. #28
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    my problem with demar is he wants to be an elite player yet he plays soft and in slow motion half the time. he complains that he isnt getting calls yet he goes in there so god damn slow and puts up a silly little layup. how can he expect a call when he blew 2 layups last night with nobody around him. he needs to be aggressive and go in hard everytime and look to dunk on people. when amir went up last night for that big dunk over telotovic even though he didnt finish he went in hard and will get rewarded every time. in that same situation demar would have went into him slowly then put up a soft layup hoping for contact. man up and use your abilities to your strength not the refs.

  9. #29
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Depends on how we define "starting quality SG". I don't see him being skilled enough to start on a contending team.
    It's true. I think some of the fans use stats like rebounds to make him seem better than he is.

    For example derozan similar numbers to joe Johnson...but the main difference (scoring wen it counts) is the reason why no one would pick dd over him for any team

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    my problem with demar is he wants to be an elite player yet he plays soft and in slow motion half the time. he complains that he isnt getting calls yet he goes in there so god damn slow and puts up a silly little layup. how can he expect a call when he blew 2 layups last night with nobody around him. he needs to be aggressive and go in hard everytime and look to dunk on people. when amir went up last night for that big dunk over telotovic even though he didnt finish he went in hard and will get rewarded every time. in that same situation demar would have went into him slowly then put up a soft layup hoping for contact. man up and use your abilities to your strength not the refs.
    +1. For some reason he's developed a phobia on getting blocked.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    my problem with demar is he wants to be an elite player yet he plays soft and in slow motion half the time. he complains that he isnt getting calls yet he goes in there so god damn slow and puts up a silly little layup. how can he expect a call when he blew 2 layups last night with nobody around him. he needs to be aggressive and go in hard everytime and look to dunk on people. when amir went up last night for that big dunk over telotovic even though he didnt finish he went in hard and will get rewarded every time. in that same situation demar would have went into him slowly then put up a soft layup hoping for contact. man up and use your abilities to your strength not the refs.
    although i would love to see this, i just dont think he is as athletic as people think.. he doesnt have the quickness or the hops to drive into a guy and dunk over him unless its in transition or an alley oop.. otherwise he will get blocked most times.. he doesnt get nearly as high above the rim as Ross.. i mean, i know he was in the dunk comp and all but i still dont think he has great hangtime and his arms arent long enough.. plus, like u said he is slowwwww and not explosive

  12. #32
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I am a big critic of DeMar and I recognize all of his limitations, but comparing him with Bargnani is cold. He had a bad game. He has improved a tonne from last season. He is never going to be a #1 or #2 guy though.

    If you look across the league there are not many very elite SG's. Wade/Kobe/Ginobili are all old and will leave the game soon. JJ/Iggy/JR Smith are now vets and wouldn't really be considered elite anyway. Outside of Harden and Gordon (who is always injured) I can't really see a young SG that will be a game changer. I'd put DeMar in the same class as Mayo, Afflalo, Matthews and Turner. And you could convince yourself quite easily that DeMar is just as good as they are (well maybe not Mayo who I like).

    The problem with DeMar is that he will have a hard time living up to his contract (just like Jose was/is or Bargnani was/is). However that is because he works for a GM that is very generous. And if you take the contract completely out of the equation then DeMar is fine. I would have no issue packaging him up in a trade to get an upgrade, but he's also not someone that I would give away because he's costing the team wins.
    When everybody was looking to trade Barganani last season (and even prior to the start of last season), I said that if Bargnani was traded, DeRozan would become the team's next scapegoat. His new contract has only further bolstered my opinion. Similar to Bargnani, DeRozan has been marketed by the team (and paid) at a level that doesn't fit his game/personality, which will ultimately result in unfair expectations being placed on him.

    Neither Bargnani or DeRozan should be more than #2/#3 options on a good team and both have huge holes in their games. They are both inefficient doing the one thing they do well (score) and often the negatives outweigh the positives - Bargnani's poor rebounding and lack of help defense, and DeRozan's horrendous outside shooting and poor defense.

    Yet both of these players have been marketed & paid as franchise cornerstones to be built around, just like management did with Bosh before them. None of them are true franchise players and have been doomed to fail and be made into scapegoats. I would be quite happy to see Bargnani & DeRozan traded for a true franchise talent.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jan 16th, 2013 at 10:41 AM.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
    Im not sure why people get all upset about rebounds people SHOULD be grabbing. Lets keep in mind there are a finite number of rebounds per game, and if someone like Fields is grabbing 11 and ross 9 not to mention our bigs are decent rebounders, there are only so many left.

    SOOO much of it has to do with positioning and strategy. Demar's role for that particular game could have been to trap the long rebound, which there arent gonna be many of when your opponent shoots everything from 4 ft and hits threes. Or to be prepared to get out and run if CASEY wants to.

    IMO as long as we are grabbing more than our opponent as a TEAM, individual rebounds are somewhat irrelevant.
    But here is the problem, the best rebounding teams also tend to have great individual rebounders. Not only on the whole, but at their position.

    Top 5 rebounding % teams (%s rounded):

    1. Minnesota - K. Love (23%)/Pekovic (16%)/Kirilenko (11%)
    2. Indiana* - Hibbert (16%)/George(12%)
    3. Memphis - Randolph (20%)/Speights (20%)
    4. Denver - Faried (23%)/Koufos (19%)
    5. OKC* - Ibaka (15%)/Durant (11%)/Westbrook (9%)

    *these team don't have 'elite' rebounders (although some are for their position - ie. westbrook/george), but they are also top shot blocking teams/players. As shots that are blocked don't count as rebounds, but are still counted as FG missed (and therefore considered an 'available rebound' under rebounding%) top shot blockers tend to have their rebounding% 'underrated'. (which is easily comparable when we look at Love, Randolph, Speights, Faried, Pekovic - all of who are the 'better' rebounders, but also tend to not block shots vs Hibbert and Ibaka who are 2 of the top 3 shotblockers yet below their counterparts in reb% )

    A quick coverage of the rest in the top 10 - Golden State (Lee), Chicago (Boozer/Noah), LA (Dwight), Brooklyn (Evans/Humphries/Blatche), Detroit (Drummond/Monroe)



    Although i will say its alot less important to have you SG as a 'good rebounder'. Meaning Demar being good/bad/average at rebounding isn't a big deal or will have significant impact - although every rebound helps.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    When everybody was looking to trade Barganani last season (and even prior to the start of last season), I said that if Bargnani was traded, DeRozan would become the team's next scapegoat. His new contract has only further bolstered my opinion. Similar to Bargnani, DeRozan has been marketed by the team (and paid) at a level that doesn't fit his game/personality, which will ultimately result in unfair expectations being placed on him.
    Derozan is what he is. He's a replacement level player who does a few things pretty well while having some major holes in his game. Despite all the talk of improvement, his numbers this year, so far, pretty much mirror his production the last two seasons. Yes, he's shooting the ball slightly better this season than last (up from ~50 TS% to ~ 51 TS%), rebounding the ball at a better rate and has fewer turnovers but there are no significant increases in productivity. I don't have time to dig out all the isolated defensive stats but it's pretty clear from the box score stats that the overall impact of his game is no greater than last season.

    People keep talking about how young he is but we know that historically players pretty much are what they are when they come into the NBA and, certainly, after 3 seasons. This is it. Just like with Bargs, you knew what you had after the first two seasons. Yet, you still had people, EVEN THIS OFFSEASON, talking about it being a breakout year for Bargs. It's ridiculous.

    I have nothing against Derozan and I think he'd be a decent guy second or third guy off the bench but he's not a core piece of a successful team. I mean, he's been a core guy for the last three years and the record is what it is.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Derozan is what he is. He's a replacement level player who does a few things pretty well while having some major holes in his game. Despite all the talk of improvement, his numbers this year, so far, pretty much mirror his production the last two seasons. Yes, he's shooting the ball slightly better this season than last (up from ~50 TS% to ~ 51 TS%), rebounding the ball at a better rate and has fewer turnovers but there are no significant increases in productivity. I don't have time to dig out all the isolated defensive stats but it's pretty clear from the box score stats that the overall impact of his game is no greater than last season.

    People keep talking about how young he is but we know that historically players pretty much are what they are when they come into the NBA and, certainly, after 3 seasons. This is it. Just like with Bargs, you knew what you had after the first two seasons. Yet, you still had people, EVEN THIS OFFSEASON, talking about it being a breakout year for Bargs. It's ridiculous.

    I have nothing against Derozan and I think he'd be a decent guy second or third guy off the bench but he's not a core piece of a successful team. I mean, he's been a core guy for the last three years and the record is what it is.
    +1

    and as far as everybody talking about his rebounds, i think it would be much more beneficial if he could learn to set people up when his drives arent there and make plays for other people. Demar racking up 4 or 5 assists per game > Demar getting 4 rebs a game

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Hmm....Lots of stuff being said. A lot about what people think about Demar. No problem with that. But I think that there is a simple reality to his situation on our team regardless of how you see him as a player. Given his new contract situation, there's pretty much no chance he gets traded this season.
    So doubt Demar or not, he's here for awhile. How long? Not sure. I seem to vaguely recall something about a trade kicker in his new deal...And obviously, both BC and other teams will want to assess next year if Demar seems like he'll be worth his extension. I think it'll thus be hard to find a good fit trade-wise for awhile. Most likely it would be teams looking to dump a bigger salary and get something decent back, at least for awhile.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Jan 16th, 2013 at 11:44 AM.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    All of this said, where DeMar has looked excellent this year, and where he may actually have an elite skill, is coming off screens and getting midrange shots. His vertical is so explosive that when he comes off the screen, catches and elevates immediately, he always has a great look - even when the man chasing him hasn't lost a step. These are the plays we should run for him - but there's just so many goddam semi-isos at the three point line, and he doesn't have the skill for that to be a good play call.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Rookie Raptorboy's Avatar
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    Quote Michel G wrote: View Post
    In the games that Lowry has started, DeRozan has been more efficient, shooting 45% from the field compared to 41% when Jose has started. He's shot it better from 3 also. Jose has looked good because he makes the bigs better, but it hasn't helped DeMar.

    The Raptors have won 3 games this year against teams with above .500 records and two of them were non-playoff teams last year (Houston and Portland). We're nearly halfway through the year. The playoffs are still possible, but unlikely. I'd rather see Lowry back in the starting lineup so he can start to gain the trust of his teammates. This franchise needs to move forward and the last significant deal except for Lowry was Amir Johnson. I hope the trade deadline will bring some changes.
    I disagree. Calderon on the floor makes for a much better flow with the entire team, not just the bigs. If Demar is not scoring as much with Jose on the floor it is because he is not making enough cuts or getting open because if he was Jose would find him. Calderon makes this team worth watching. Kyle is a good pg, but Jose is a great one!! Losing Jose is gonna be a huge regret for years to come...mark my words.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Runs to the tunnel, signs his contract, runs out to the floor for opening night. Team losses to Indiana. Classic.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Rookie Raptorboy's Avatar
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    Quote ball4life wrote: View Post
    Is anyone else having doubts on the "progress" of Derozan.
    I really think he is going to be causing another Bragnani situation for us and needs to be out of here while he is at his peak right now for good returns.

    agree? or make me a believer!!
    I think Demar's game is much better than ever, even if his consistency acts up from time to time. Demar is a very hard worker, a great athlete and he will continue improving for many years. Last night I was impressed by how he recognizes and takes advantage of open mid-range shots when he gets them. He would not have done this last year. He is not a highly intelligent player but I see major improvement. I think he is definitely serviceable and will continue improving until he is a solid top 10 sg in the league. He might not make an all-star game but he's a player.

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