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Thread: Treadmill?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Default Treadmill?

    Not sure if this has been linked yet but it's an ok reality check for the raptors. Chisholm laments that we are in a rut without an elite player (not bad enough for a draft pick, not good enough to make a run in the playoffs). Not sure I totally agree. It's not like we've been in this spot for a while. Lets let this group grow a bit. There's no star coming to us, lets see if the high pick we got when we were worse (jv) might be that player. Might be ok until we have cap space again (whenever that is)

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=413880

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    With the players we have we are better off emulating the Indiana Pacers or Denver Nuggets. They have no really big star and they can make the playoffs. Are they going to win. No. But that is how this league is. Teams with 1 star don't win either. When you have 2+ stars then we can talk.

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    Quote Pill wrote: View Post
    With the players we have we are better off emulating the Indiana Pacers or Denver Nuggets. They have no really big star and they can make the playoffs. Are they going to win. No. But that is how this league is. Teams with 1 star don't win either. When you have 2+ stars then we can talk.
    I don't fully agree with the not winning part. Dallas won a couple years ago with 1 legit star in Dirk and a real emphasis on team ball and depth.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The comments in that article are hilarious:

    yeah, trade bargs and kleiza for picks.


    the article only further solidifies my belief the raptors should take other teamsbshit for prospects and picks.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Meh...this is always something the media likes to talk about with mediocre teams.

    Of course, this article also points out to me what is wrong with Toronto sports fans in general: they overvalue talent. I know Chisholm isn't crazy or anything, and he knows what a franchise talent is, so that's why it's funny that none of the players mentioned would actually help us like a franchise player. The only one you could ever make the case for is Pau, who's probably not able to quite shoulder that load. So basically, the Raps can't afford to acquire a franchise talent, and the talents available are pseudo-franchise type players with high price tags. I mean really, we'd be a better team with Paul Millsap or Josh Smith, but it would hardly address our worst issues.

    Stay the course, see if one or two of the young players develop into all-stars, which I think is a real possiblity for JV down the road. As Matt said, see if you can get a couple of extra picks back in trades where you're basically helping a team lose a player or salary (no player that will disrupt what the team is building though), and try to expand your base of young talent so at the very least if you still only develop one or two good players, you have many more to trade and getting even a lesser star talent could make sense for that price later down the road.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I completely agree with the article. We've been stuck on this "treadmill" ever since Carter was traded. That's 8 years of insignificant team-building.

    Josh Smith, Rudy Gay or Pau Gasol aren't true "franchise" players, but take any 2 of them and add them to Lowry and Valanciunas, and all of a sudden, we have enough talent that should be capable of securing a top-4 seed.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I completely agree with the article. We've been stuck on this "treadmill" ever since Carter was traded. That's 8 years of insignificant team-building.

    Josh Smith, Rudy Gay or Pau Gasol aren't true "franchise" players, but take any 2 of them and add them to Lowry and Valanciunas, and all of a sudden, we have enough talent that should be capable of securing a top-4 seed.
    Between the above cast you have lots of injury potential. The chance of one of them playing 82 is already at 50/50 but all 4. None of those players are blue chips. I would be really scared to have more than 2 such players on my roster.


    I have seen the same upside being pushed with Jermine Oneal.
    Last edited by BasketballCrush; Mon Jan 21st, 2013 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I completely agree with the article. We've been stuck on this "treadmill" ever since Carter was traded. That's 8 years of insignificant team-building.

    Josh Smith, Rudy Gay or Pau Gasol aren't true "franchise" players, but take any 2 of them and add them to Lowry and Valanciunas, and all of a sudden, we have enough talent that should be capable of securing a top-4 seed.
    Only 2?!!! And their contacts would only take up 2/3 of the cap? Damn, someone had better get on the phone with BC and advise him to quit this rebuild with youth now, and go for that quick fix with players all having their worst year (they just need a change of scenery, eh). 4th seed here we come!! Who do we advise BC to trade for 2 of these guys, that their current teams will take?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Between the above cast you have lots of injury potential. The chance of one of them playing 82 is already at 50/50 but all 4. None of those players are blue chips. I would be really scared to have more than 2 such players on my roster.


    I have seen the same upside being pushed with Jermine Oneal.
    O'Neal was well past his prime, and was barely producing when we acquired him. We can't say the same about Smith or Gay. Besides, I only mentioned these players as an example strategy in getting off the dreaded "treadmill".

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Only 2?!!! And their contacts would only take up 2/3 of the cap? Damn, someone had better get on the phone with BC and advise him to quit this rebuild with youth now, and go for that quick fix with players all having their worst year (they just need a change of scenery, eh). 4th seed here we come!! Who do we advise BC to trade for 2 of these guys, that their current teams will take?
    Quit what rebuild? Collecting a bunch of flawed players and selling us on "potential"?

    Waiting for DeRozan and Davis to morph into Kobe and Gasol doesn't look like a successful strategy. I'd be willing to trade everyone on the roster minus Lowry and Jonas (and perhaps Ross).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Not sure if this has been linked yet but it's an ok reality check for the raptors. Chisholm laments that we are in a rut without an elite player (not bad enough for a draft pick, not good enough to make a run in the playoffs). Not sure I totally agree. It's not like we've been in this spot for a while. Lets let this group grow a bit. There's no star coming to us, lets see if the high pick we got when we were worse (jv) might be that player. Might be ok until we have cap space again (whenever that is)

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=413880
    Hopefully a new GM will come in and make the necessary moves (keep young players on rookie deals, deal the rest for draft picks)

    You need elite talent to win in the NBA. Waiting for Derozan, Davis, JV and Ross to get better is fine if there is a high ceiling for them to grow and turn the team into a competitor.

    Imho, none of those players are or will be elite and none of them are taking your franchise to the next level.

    Fact, the Raps best players acquired since our existence have been through the draft (Vince, McGrady, Bosh).

    The Raps have never really committed to a true rebuild where the team is solely focusing on obtaining young players every year until you have a core group you can build that can contend. You need those high picks to get the elite talent. As a fan I would rather 3-4 years of high lottery picks until finding players you can build your team around then picking outside the top 5 and adding decent pieces like Demar - should have never passed on Holiday or Jennings btw, Ed, Ross, etc. You pay guys who have shown they are stars unlike what we have done with Andrea and Demar, locking them into longterm deals that give you some market value, but don't contribute to winning on a nightly basis and taking your team to the next level. Its the treadmill over and over and over again and it's time to strip it down and build it with a strong foundation.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    I just think that if you make the above cast your starting 5, then you will need a few 10 day contracts. I just can't see that cast being healthy. You would have to be unusually lucky.


    As for JO being past his prime, lol, you should of heard the argument of when we were trading for him, everyone felt the grass was greener on the other side.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    I just think that if you make the above cast your starting 5, then you will need a few 10 day contracts. I just can't see that cast being healthy. You would have to be unusually lucky.


    As for JO being past his prime, lol, you should of heard the argument of when we were trading for him, everyone felt the grass was greener on the other side.
    I think I'd prefer the Boston/Miami method (finding 3 stars, and surrounding them with a weak supporting cast), than being deep in every position without a single all-star calibre player to lean on when it counts.

    Injuries happen, I agree. But I don't like the idea of building a team in fear of injuries.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Hopefully a new GM will come in and make the necessary moves (keep young players on rookie deals, deal the rest for draft picks)

    You need elite talent to win in the NBA. Waiting for Derozan, Davis, JV and Ross to get better is fine if there is a high ceiling for them to grow and turn the team into a competitor.

    Imho, none of those players are or will be elite and none of them are taking your franchise to the next level.

    Fact, the Raps best players acquired since our existence have been through the draft (Vince, McGrady, Bosh).

    The Raps have never really committed to a true rebuild where the team is solely focusing on obtaining young players every year until you have a core group you can build that can contend. You need those high picks to get the elite talent. As a fan I would rather 3-4 years of high lottery picks until finding players you can build your team around then picking outside the top 5 and adding decent pieces like Demar - should have never passed on Holiday or Jennings btw, Ed, Ross, etc. You pay guys who have shown they are stars unlike what we have done with Andrea and Demar, locking them into longterm deals that give you some market value, but don't contribute to winning on a nightly basis and taking your team to the next level. Its the treadmill over and over and over again and it's time to strip it down and build it with a strong foundation.
    Agree with this almost completely. I think there are some non-rookies that can be kept at the right price or if there isn't the right return (Lowry, Anderson, Calderon, Gray, Lucas etc - although not all) just to include some cheap or affordable experience or leadership into the line up. But generally speaking the bolded part is right on the money.

    I personally don't think Colangelo does a very good job drafting, and have found most of trades (specifically the big ones) have back fired. But the biggest problem this team has had is overpaying (for) existing players or incoming players. And then to amplify that problem, they are given large and often growing roles without much reason aside from 'potential' or because they just got payed. And all that without any evidence the team can go anywhere with it.

    The risk vs reward Colangelo takes is just doesn't make sense if the end goal is to building a highly competitive team. Its constantly attempts to 'not be bad' with moves that almost ensure the team can't 'be great'.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    The Raps have never really committed to a true rebuild where the team is solely focusing on obtaining young players every year until you have a core group you can build that can contend.
    Yep.

    The problem for the Raps now is that they haven't made the playoffs for 4, going on 5, years. If you do a proper rebuild now, you are looking ahead to at least another two seasons, and more likely 3, out of the playoffs. Context matters and the pressure to win and forego a rebuild increases the more time slips away. Refusing to do the rebuild after Bosh left has cost this team two wasted seasons and, you could argue, this year as well. So, in an effort not to waste time rebuilding, you've now wasted 3 years re-tooling and are in no better shape.

    My frustration with Colangelo has never really been about any particular move he's made, rather his overall strategy which continues to have adverse long term consequences for the organization has never made sense or actually, you know, worked.

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    We can dream....

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    O'Neal was well past his prime, and was barely producing when we acquired him. We can't say the same about Smith or Gay. Besides, I only mentioned these players as an example strategy in getting off the dreaded "treadmill".


    Quit what rebuild? Collecting a bunch of flawed players and selling us on "potential"?

    Waiting for DeRozan and Davis to morph into Kobe and Gasol doesn't look like a successful strategy. I'd be willing to trade everyone on the roster minus Lowry and Jonas (and perhaps Ross).
    Okay, I'm open to trade anybody too, but for who, and for what? As you said yourself, the 3 players you mentioned are NOT "franchise" level players. So any one might make the team better, but good enough to spend all that money on? You said any 2 could elevate the team to top 4 seed. I'm not sure that's true, but first we need to know what the team gives up to have the privilege of overpaying them and taking up 2/3 of our cap space. As I asked, if you exclude JV, Lowry, Ross, who do you think the team has left that could make any two of those trades happen? Seriously, if it's not possible, we may as well talk about how well the team would do if we got Irving, Paul George, and that rookie I here about, Davis.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Okay, I'm open to trade anybody too, but for who, and for what? As you said yourself, the 3 players you mentioned are NOT "franchise" level players. So any one might make the team better, but good enough to spend all that money on? You said any 2 could elevate the team to top 4 seed. I'm not sure that's true, but first we need to know what the team gives up to have the privilege of overpaying them and taking up 2/3 of our cap space. As I asked, if you exclude JV, Lowry, Ross, who do you think the team has left that could make any two of those trades happen? Seriously, if it's not possible, we may as well talk about how well the team would do if we got Irving, Paul George, and that rookie I here about, Davis.
    I obviously don't know for sure, but I would assume that any combination of Calderon, DeRozan, Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Fields would pique some interest in a potential 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 deal.

    Irving, George, etc. are basically "untouchables"....but that doesn't mean great players aren't available.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I obviously don't know for sure, but I would assume that any combination of Calderon, DeRozan, Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Fields would pique some interest in a potential 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 deal.

    Irving, George, etc. are basically "untouchables"....but that doesn't mean great players aren't available.
    As I've already said, I may disagree about how "great players" some 2 man combination of your suggested Pau, Gay, JSmoove would be for the Raps, but that aside, may I ask again:

    What combinations of 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 deals do you think would be reasonable to "assume" are achievable in trades for two of these players, and why does it make sense to both teams, given contracts, direction of teams, etc..

    Considering the salaries and contract situations (eg. Smith), and the cost of players that I think it would take to get 2 of these guys, I don't like the idea at all, but you seem to think this is a good approach, and that they can be obtained for what you otherwise think are low value players, yet somehow think these other teams are going to value them. Okay, so pick even one combination of 2 of those "great players" and suggest which combinations of Raps players could land those two.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I'm fully willing to admit that I'm too lazy to play around with ESPN's trade machine to find salary combinations that work. But I'll close by saying that just because I consider players to be of "lower value", that doesn't mean there isn't somebody out there who sees potential in them.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    If we trade for Josh Smith, will he still be an RFA? Meaning the Raptors can match any offer he gets next season?

    Jose and Bargnani for Pau
    Demar and Amir for Smith

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