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Thread: Raptors ranked 21st in Forbes' valuations

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Default Raptors ranked 21st in Forbes' valuations

    Nothing really news-worthy here. Just displaying how the Raptors compare to the rest of the league from a financial viewpoint.

    http://www.forbes.com/nba-valuations/list/
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Actually, I would say this IS news worthy considering just last year the Raps were ranked #10 in the league by Forbes, with a value of $399M. While their value has actually increased to $405M, they managed to drop over 10 spots in the list. Thats pretty wild.
    I guess with the $500M sale of the Kings, things got a little out of whack?

    http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/26/kni..._slide_11.html
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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to see how/what Forbes split out for the Raptors, from all the resources & assets that are owned by MLSE and shared with the Leafs and every other event at the ACC. How could they value the Raptors alone, considering they are just a piece of the pie owned and operated by MLSE (especially with involvement by Rogers and Bell, Canada's media giants)?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Not sure how to interpret this since im not a numbers guy

    So, am i correct with this:
    Raps are making money, but not as much compared to 20 (majority) as other teams in the league
    Do these numbers reflect attendance meaning higher on the list, higher attendance
    It seems 20-30, only one team has a winning franchise, is that bad?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    weren't raps in 10-15 range last few seasons?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    This ranking is totally inconsistent with their rankings last year, which would be fine if there had been some major change to the relative value of the Raptors. However, I don't know of anything that would have done so. I don't see how the Kings potential sale could come into play, as they'd either treat it as an outlier due to the intense demand in Seattle, or use it as a guideline when valuing the rest of the teams (which would include the Raptors).

    TL;DR -> I don't understand market valuations.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Not sure how to interpret this since im not a numbers guy

    So, am i correct with this:
    Raps are making money, but not as much compared to 20 (majority) as other teams in the league
    Do these numbers reflect attendance meaning higher on the list, higher attendance
    It seems 20-30, only one team has a winning franchise, is that bad?
    No, in the Raptors case, my guess is that the purchase price paid by Bell/Rogers was allocated at $300M to the Raptors, so, the valuation is the $300M, plus Tanenbaum's piece of ~$100M, plus some incremental change since the summer.

    This means that the $399M by Forbes last year was pretty much bang on.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Interestingly, if you rank by Operating Revenue, Raps are 7th overall. So, the Raps make good money annually. And, based on what I have been told by some, that number is low. I have been told that the Raps have typically made somewhere between $20-$30 million in profit annually.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Interestingly, if you rank by Operating Revenue, Raps are 7th overall. So, the Raps make good money annually. And, based on what I have been told by some, that number is low. I have been told that the Raps have typically made somewhere between $20-$30 million in profit annually.
    How is that possible with a non-playoff team? So if they do make the playoffs, then that will be additional revenue, correct?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    How is that possible with a non-playoff team? So if they do make the playoffs, then that will be additional revenue, correct?
    Go get yourself a beer at the ACC, and you will know the answer.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Go get yourself a beer at the ACC, and you will know the answer.
    hahaha i heard they charge a kidney then sell that in the US in the black market, hahaha

    Ive actually been to a lot of games in the ACC but ive never bought food nor drinks there, im not lying, and this is precisely why, hahaha.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    Go get yourself a beer at the ACC, and you will know the answer.
    The suites.

    Can't speak for the ACC but at the Saddledome in Calgary feeding 20 people in your box is gonna run you around $1500. Add in the booze, and you're pushing $3,000-4,000 depending on your crew. That's just food and drink, let alone the tickets.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    So according to this the valuation of a whole pile of franchises that make less money than the Raptors, are in smaller markets than the Raptors, and are less stable than the Raptors are somehow valued higher. Is this based on wins somehow? Cause I don't get how a team that lost money last year (phili) is worth more than the Raptors, who are one of the only teams in the league that consistently make money. Is it because we have a lot of debt? Or does it have to do with Canada's tax policies.

    Edit: Never mind, I read the intro, apparently it's related to national TV deals in the states, which the Raptors are not getting as much of a slice of, and winning, which keeps a team like Memphis up in value despite losing money every year. I stil don't get why every team but us increased by so much and we basically stood pat. Maybe it's because we have new owners?

    Edit Edit: Apparently our attendance is also way down and we've reduced ticket prices.
    Last edited by hateslosing; Wed Jan 23rd, 2013 at 03:22 PM.
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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The suites.

    Can't speak for the ACC but at the Saddledome in Calgary feeding 20 people in your box is gonna run you around $1500. Add in the booze, and you're pushing $3,000-4,000 depending on your crew. That's just food and drink, let alone the tickets.
    I worked for a company in Toronto from 2000-2006, who owned a platinum lounge suite and you're absoultely bang on about the crazy expenses associated with those suites. I know the suite initially cost them $250,000, plus they HAD to purchase tickets for every event held at the ACC for the life of their lease (I think their suite came with 10 or 12 platinum seats attached). Not only did they also have to pay the outrageous prices for food & drink, but each suite came with their own personal host/hostess for every game, which only served to further bloat the prices (though it was nice when the hostess came out during the 3rd period or 4th quarter to take your final drink and icecream bar order!).

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    How is that possible with a non-playoff team? So if they do make the playoffs, then that will be additional revenue, correct?
    Playoff revenue is pure gold. The salaries they pay players don't stay the same (players get payed on an 82 game basis) and what they do pay out to the players for the playoffs is, if I'm not mistaken, much much lower than their typical salaries.

    Then ticket prices go through the roof as do ticket sales.

    Playoffs is the cash cow of sports.

    But an aside from that. Toronto is a large and wealthy market and has no problems making money in sports (except apparently the CFL). Even Toronto FC, with a history of losing, is one of the most profitable teams in the MLS.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Yeah, this shouldn't be confused with Toronto not being profitable, or being a small market. In fact, a great many things about it have to do with things that happen beyond the market you're in. That's part of the reason the big market teams do well. Even NYK, they mention how they got a big boost in merchandise sales because of Linsanity.

    Toronto's value has stayed pretty stagnant, I imagine because they haven't really made any progress anywhere. The arena is not exactly state of the art. Merchandise sales must be pretty damn low compared to a lot of teams in the league. We haven't been winning, so that doesn't help ticket sales, we don't get playoff revenue, and it doesn't help TV deals either (though I have no clue what to make of that with Toronto being in the Canadian market). Again, the team still makes money...which makes sense in a city that is big and wealthy, where they kill you with prices...I mean seriously, this is also part of the problem with Toronto. Too many corporates...Too many yuppies....My least favorite thing to see when watching a Raptors game is see courtside or platinum seatholders, like a couple lets say, and they're like just on their Blackberries or something. Clearly not interested in the game at all. Sometimes some of them almost look annoyed when the action is happening right in front of them (for courtside seats).

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    Raptors Republic Starter mike, prague's Avatar
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    40% Debt that's a pretty high number don't you think? Anybody what that might mean in detail though?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote mike, prague wrote: View Post
    40% Debt that's a pretty high number don't you think? Anybody what that might mean in detail though?
    I'm assuming they are referring to debt to capital (so their debt/capital in a %). BCE itself has a debt to capital of over 50% while Rogers is nearly 75%. It could be impacted by numerous different factors.

    In the grand scheme of things there is many sound financial reasons to have debt on the books, and for a teams as proftitable as Toronto its not likely a concern.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    weren't raps in 10-15 range last few seasons?
    Ya man, just last year they were #10. Not sure what happened here, but its certainly confusing.

    Sacremento's value is shown as, I believe, exactly their purchase price, so I have to imagine that played a factor.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

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