Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4
Results 61 to 79 of 79

Thread: pieces that fit together and the plan moving forward.

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    About the Wiggins kid. It's good to remember that despite Josh Selby being the top ranked HS recruit just 3 years ago, he was just a minor piece in a minor trade this week.

    I think it's prudent to wait to see how Wiggins develop before predicting he will be a savior.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,095
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post


    Why don't we ask all the other teams that cleared cap space to sign lebron and didn't get him to see how that worked out. As well as ask Dallas how their clearing of cap space to get Deron worked out, or ask them how they feel about signing a bunch of 1 year contracts so they could sign Chris Paul or Dwight Howard this off season. Since their owner, and star player are on record saying that their odds of doing so are not looking so good right now, I think it safe to say that it is not a fool-proof strategy.
    I was simply refuting your point that the WORST plan for a team is to focus on a player 2 years out. I would argue it isn't the worst plan cause it has actually worked though, obviously, there are no guarantees.

    I would argue the WORST plan is the one currently pursued my the team that hasn't made the playoffs in 4 years and hasn't drafted, traded for, or signed an all-star in 7 seasons.

    Is the pining for one player plan stupid? Maybe, but we already know the current plan doesn't work, so why not try something else?

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    31
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I would suggest the correct plan is to maximize your options. As an example of doing that well: Houston.

    If you clear up cap space, acquire picks and young players, and have the ability to facilitate trades because you have flexibility others don't, eventually good things will happen. Yes, it may take a little while. Yes, it means you might be stuck in the mediocre middle ground for a few years. However, managed properly, eventually something shakes loose (in this case, James Harden).

    I would suggest that is what the Raptors should do. Build a tough, scrappy team on reasonable contracts, collect as many picks and young players as you can, and avoid signing mid-level players to big deals that clog your cap (so no more DeRozan / Bargnani type moves). That way if someone else is in salary hell, you can help in return for assets, if someone wants to move a big-name player, you are a potential destination, and if someone does something stupid, maybe you can be on the other side.

    Plus, if you happen to get lucky in the lottery and get a big name player there, also great. But I think the most valuable thing the Raptors could acquire right now are players and picks that give them options. There's no one right course, but the wrong course is probably lasering in on anything that locks you up without it being very clear that thing is a top-tier player (as in, break the bank for Durant, Harden, etc., but don't do it unless you have a star).

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rexdale
    Posts
    1,097
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    u never lay all your eggs in one basket... i dont even want to get into all the reasons why this wiggans talk is wack..i wont even consider him a future star until ive seen him play at least one collage game..dudes still in high school & at this point his career can take soo many different paths...will he be a LBJ or maybe hes a Amir Johnson SF only thing i know for sure is the talent level at the high school level isnt good..a couple guys tend to stand out & the rest go on to flip burgers at wendys

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,957
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    u never lay all your eggs in one basket... i dont even want to get into all the reasons why this wiggans talk is wack..i wont even consider him a future star until ive seen him play at least one collage game..dudes still in high school & at this point his career can take soo many different paths...will he be a LBJ or maybe hes a Amir Johnson SF only thing i know for sure is the talent level at the high school level isnt good..a couple guys tend to stand out & the rest go on to flip burgers at wendys
    What if the plan isn't specifically about Wiggins, but about securing a top-3 pick in what's expected to be a loaded 2014 draft?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #66
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rexdale
    Posts
    1,097
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    What if the plan isn't specifically about Wiggins, but about securing a top-3 pick in what's expected to be a loaded 2014 draft?
    no prob. with that plan. pick who evers the best avail. but im a firm believer in building a team by any means..weather that be free agency, trade , or draft.. i really hate limiting the vision to just the draft..the best teams do what ever it takes & rarely rely onthe draft alone

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    no prob. with that plan. pick who evers the best avail. but im a firm believer in building a team by any means..weather that be free agency, trade , or draft.. i really hate limiting the vision to just the draft..the best teams do what ever it takes & rarely rely onthe draft alone
    but the best teams all start with a piece obtained via the draft. the draft is the nudge that gets the ball rolling.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #68
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,957
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    no prob. with that plan. pick who evers the best avail. but im a firm believer in building a team by any means..weather that be free agency, trade , or draft.. i really hate limiting the vision to just the draft..the best teams do what ever it takes & rarely rely onthe draft alone
    I agree on the "whatever it takes" approach to team building. But the Raptors being the Raptors, are in an unfair position when it comes to acquiring talent outside of the draft. Ignorant people see Toronto as some sort of 3rd world destination.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rexdale
    Posts
    1,097
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    but the best teams all start with a piece obtained via the draft. the draft is the nudge that gets the ball rolling.
    using the lakers as an example..during there 5 titles in kobes era how many guys on that team were drafted by them & how many were traded for...Kobe was drafted by charlotte hornets & traded to lakers.. Shaq was a free agent signing as were alot of others like Payton, Malone, they traded for Pau, traded for Odem, signed Artest, etc.. it can be done. i agree it will be more difficult in this market though but it Can be done.

  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default If we win - they will come

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    But the Raptors being the Raptors, are in an unfair position when it comes to acquiring talent outside of the draft. Ignorant people see Toronto as some sort of 3rd world destination.
    I personally think this is a MYTH.. Look at the Blue Jays as an example from the early 90's and the raps from Vince Carter earlier days.....I firmly believe that "If you win - they will come." MOST players around the league have played here by now (as a visitor) and know that Toronto is an amazing city - one of the best in the world.

    Unfortunately, our management sucks right now....our team sucks right now....Why would someone come here to waste their career playing with a losing team????

    We cannot attract free agents BECAUSE our team sucks....plain and simple.

    Vince Carter signed an extension, Bosh signed an extension, MO Pete signed an extension, Calderon, Demar, the list goes on.... Bosh and Carter wanted to leave because our team/management/coaching was subpar at that time

    I will admit that we are ignored by the U.S. media but i think its purely because we suck. Does anyone else remember us being on primetime when Vince and the vets were here and when our team was actually winning??

    Wasn't Bosh and Vince voted all-star starters while they were here??

    I put this solely on management......build a winner and the players will beg to play here!

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,200
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    using the lakers as an example..during there 5 titles in kobes era how many guys on that team were drafted by them & how many were traded for...Kobe was drafted by charlotte hornets & traded to lakers.. Shaq was a free agent signing as were alot of others like Payton, Malone, they traded for Pau, traded for Odem, signed Artest, etc.. it can be done. i agree it will be more difficult in this market though but it Can be done.
    I did think of that but maybe I am wrong but trading for a draft pick is the same as building through the draft in my books. that pick got the ball rolling for the lakers.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  12. #72
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,285
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    using the lakers as an example..during there 5 titles in kobes era how many guys on that team were drafted by them & how many were traded for...Kobe was drafted by charlotte hornets & traded to lakers.. Shaq was a free agent signing as were alot of others like Payton, Malone, they traded for Pau, traded for Odem, signed Artest, etc.. it can be done. i agree it will be more difficult in this market though but it Can be done.
    First, although Kobe was not technically drafted by the Lakers, it was well known that he would play for only one team. He was traded immediately, with Charlotte just taking advantage of the situation to pickup additional assets.

    Second, the quality of free agents being lured to the Lakers only speaks volumes to the inequality of the NBA, when it comes to free agency. Shaq wanted to become a star, both as a rapper and as a movie star, plus I'm sure he liked the idea of teaming up with another star in Kobe. Bottom line is that when it comes to free agency, the Lakers are in a class all by themselves (when they have money to actually sign a free agent, of course).

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,957
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I personally think this is a MYTH.. Look at the Blue Jays as an example from the early 90's and the raps from Vince Carter earlier days.....I firmly believe that "If you win - they will come." MOST players around the league have played here by now (as a visitor) and know that Toronto is an amazing city - one of the best in the world.

    Unfortunately, our management sucks right now....our team sucks right now....Why would someone come here to waste their career playing with a losing team????

    We cannot attract free agents BECAUSE our team sucks....plain and simple.

    Vince Carter signed an extension, Bosh signed an extension, MO Pete signed an extension, Calderon, Demar, the list goes on.... Bosh and Carter wanted to leave because our team/management/coaching was subpar at that time

    I will admit that we are ignored by the U.S. media but i think its purely because we suck. Does anyone else remember us being on primetime when Vince and the vets were here and when our team was actually winning??

    Wasn't Bosh and Vince voted all-star starters while they were here??

    I put this solely on management......build a winner and the players will beg to play here!
    I agree that winning trumps everything. But how do you start winning without good players? How do you get good players if your assets aren't desired in trades?

    The draft really is the best option right now.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Rexdale
    Posts
    1,097
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agree that winning trumps everything. But how do you start winning without good players? How do you get good players if your assets aren't desired in trades?

    The draft really is the best option right now.
    weve had assets that were & are desired, just not enough to get a super star without packaging like houston did for Harden..problem is we tend to over value our youth then build around guys who arent stars, then when it goes sideways we look to trade them when we cant get a bag of pretzels for them(Bargs) next will be Demar..

    i just think that its better to make your own luck then to rely on the planets aligning for us to land a legit star through the lotto

  15. #75
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    697
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agree that winning trumps everything. But how do you start winning without good players? How do you get good players if your assets aren't desired in trades?

    The draft really is the best option right now.
    Agreed -- you have to start somewhere.... I personally think the Draft (Vince Carter, Macgrady, Bosh) is the place to start. THEN you have to lock up your assests or trade them before they leave for nothing...... in our case our management let Macgrady and Bosh "string us along" and basically got nothing for them.

    This is ridiculous and a good team won't survive for long while making these mistakes.

    From here on out our management needs to lay out a plan (a la OKC and Utah)..... you offer a "fair" contract.... if the player says no or refuses to sign.... YOU TRADE THEM.... no ifs ands or buts.....it doesnt matter who this player is.

  16. #76
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,285
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Agreed -- you have to start somewhere.... I personally think the Draft (Vince Carter, Macgrady, Bosh) is the place to start. THEN you have to lock up your assests or trade them before they leave for nothing...... in our case our management let Macgrady and Bosh "string us along" and basically got nothing for them.

    This is ridiculous and a good team won't survive for long while making these mistakes.

    From here on out our management needs to lay out a plan (a la OKC and Utah)..... you offer a "fair" contract.... if the player says no or refuses to sign.... YOU TRADE THEM.... no ifs ands or buts.....it doesnt matter who this player is.
    I agree with the strategy behind it. The idea of maximizing asset management is exactly why I am in favor of trading guys like Calderon, Anderson, Pietrus (vets on expiring contracts) at the deadline, and even exploring the option of trading Lowry (1.5 years left on excellent contract) over the next year.

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    500
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    you are right to be skeptical in my opinion. most of the ideas in this thread are not likely or possible.

    first of all the constant whining of keep Calderon is a continued bewilderment. raps are 1-16 vs plus.500 teams.

    jv, Ross have potential but most potential becomes average at best.... but the potential for more is there. C I the hardest position to fill and jv appears to be a starting C long term. Ross is the 3 and D I have dreamed of. he looks like a solid 6th man and if he can get a handle maybe starter.

    As for dd, ab returning lottery picks..... lol.... in 2014 lolx2. The raps would have to take on some horrible contracts for that to happen and even then unlikely. the right to swap picks would also be good and more likely IMO.

    2014 is not about just wiggins. a lot can change in 1.5 years but there are a number of solid sf in 14 draft.

    anything that can add picks is a good thing. I am not sure the raps have the assets to get t done. they certainly don't have the financial flexibility which is why I am ready for a new GM.

    btw I am super envious of what Cleveland has done.

    I read that somewhere too...I was surprised but then I realized that with Calderon putting his "stamp" on the team and offense over the course of this season I shouldnt have been


    Overall that's what I was thinking. IMO, I think that we should continue to try and move calderon and bargs (obviously i think DD should go to but thats not happening) and get picks in return.

    Im a little more optimistic with the guys we have though, Matt. I think that Lowry, ED, Ross and JV is a very serviceable lineup. If you let them mature and provide that go to wing scorer, we can be a good team in a few years.

    a package with calderon should be able to get us something valuable in return, even if it has bargnani in it. Getting rid of these two guys will change the culture of the team and the atmosphere in the lockeroom, I believe, for the better

  18. #78
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    31
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agree that winning trumps everything. But how do you start winning without good players? How do you get good players if your assets aren't desired in trades?

    The draft really is the best option right now.
    You need great players to win.

    You get there by some combination of drafting well, signing good and average players to great contracts (as in, cheap for the team and staggered well so that you have flexibility), maintaining cap space to acquire assets in trades from teams that are shedding them, and luck.

    So even if you can't attract the best players, instead of jumping the gun at the start of free agency to overpay Fields, being patient and waiting to sign the second tier guys to solid contracts that make them trade assets is the way to go. Even if you can't draft the best players, even accumulating enough young guys with potential helps. Even if you can't sign anyone, holding the cap space to absorb other people's players can help.

    There are many things to do. Stop overspending on mediocrity would be a great start.

  19. #79
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I personally think this is a MYTH.. Look at the Blue Jays as an example from the early 90's and the raps from Vince Carter earlier days.....I firmly believe that "If you win - they will come." MOST players around the league have played here by now (as a visitor) and know that Toronto is an amazing city - one of the best in the world.

    Unfortunately, our management sucks right now....our team sucks right now....Why would someone come here to waste their career playing with a losing team????

    We cannot attract free agents BECAUSE our team sucks....plain and simple.
    Baseball will always be a poor example of this, because in baseball with no salary cap, the line is changed to "If you pay - they will come."

    Unfortunately Colangelo has taken this mantra to whole new level, drawing a bunch of bad players with the little big money we have left.
    your pal,
    ebrian

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •