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  • #16
    TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    fanbase wouldve probably found something wrong with me, then berate him and say he's not close to being a franchise player. sigh....
    Most likely.

    He is not like Jose. His defense is probably worse.

    Comment


    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      Most likely.

      He is not like Jose. His defense is probably worse.
      hahahahaha he hero ball too much. hahaha

      Comment


      • #18
        TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
        fanbase wouldve probably found something wrong with me, then berate him and say he's not close to being a franchise player. sigh....
        Pffft....pessimist

        This doesn't happen until 4 years of shallow growth is displayed

        Comment


        • #19
          Nilanka wrote: View Post
          I suppose it's the chicken-or-the-egg paradox. Do we wait until we have a franchise player, and then fill out the roster with low-cost complimentary pieces? Or do we find those pieces first, sell them as "core" pieces to the fan base, and take counter-productive steps towards finding the franchise player (i.e. not tanking)?

          Side Note: How good would Damian Lillard look in a Raps uniform right now? We were basically 1 loss away from drafting him. We wouldn't have needed to chase Nash (therefore no Fields contract), and we wouldn't have traded for Lowry (therefore maintaining our pick next year). We'd have a franchise player in Lillard, cap space, and picks in tact.....sigh.
          We also could've kept our 1st round pick and not bothered with Lowry either. Lillard being mentored by Calderon was and still is an enjoyable thought. At least we had all those winning-culture building victories!

          With regards to the bolded, I don't entirely blame BC/DC for that. I think it's less to do with selling support players (ie: Bosh, Bargnani, DeRozan) as super-star franchise players. I think it is more marketing driven, with the need to create a 'face of the franchise' to give the team a marketable identity that fans can relate to and rally behind. Plus, in this day and age, media and fans alike would elevate a single player as 'the guy', even if the franchise itself didn't. Sports especially is all about the star player, not the franchise. It's no different than the popularity of Justin Bieber on Twitter, or the Kardashians... average people latch onto famous/hyped individuals far more than they get behind a faceless, nameless team.
          Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 24, 2013, 04:47 PM.

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          • #20
            Lillard was the guy I was campaigning for back before the draft (anyone still lobbying for Austin Rivers? - didn't think so).

            As for the chicken-egg scenario. How do you get a star player? #1 is through the draft, for which you need draft picks for. #2 is through a trade where you send multiple picks/prospects out for a star player (Melo deal, Deron deal, Harden deal).

            Well for the Raps to be in the position for #2, they need to have multiple assets that over teams want. Right now, Alan Anderson is probably one of our best trade chips going into the deadline because he is playing well on both sides of the ball and is cheap. A team looking to add a player may not have the cap room for a Jose, but will very likely have the cap room for a min guy like Anderson. If you could trade Anderson for either a prospect or a draft pick right now, would you do it? I say yes, because it ultimately improves the team. If San Antonio offered their first round pick for Alan Anderson today, most people would say yes. SA would help their chances win this year, Raptors would add a valuable asset.

            Either way, if you want to get a star player, you need to have assets, and this team doesn't have enough right now. So looking for players that elevate the competitiveness while giving us financial flexibility in the future seems the best approach. So if we identify those players that are undervalued, acquire them for less than market, if they can play well and are on cheap or short deals, then they become valuable assets. Rinse and repeat. That is how Houston got James Harden.
            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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            • #21
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              We also could've kept our 1st round pick and not bothered with Lowry either. Lillard being mentored by Calderon was and still is an enjoyable thought. At least we had all those winning-culture building victories!

              With regards to the bolded, I don't entirely blame BC/DC for that. I think it's less to do with selling support players (ie: Bosh, Bargnani, DeRozan) as super-star franchise players. I think it is more marketing driven, with the need to create a 'face of the franchise' to give the team a marketable identity that fans can relate to and rally behind. Plus, in this day and age, media and fans alike would elevate a single player as 'the guy', even if the franchise itself didn't. Sports especially is all about the star player, not the franchise. It's no different than the popularity of Justin Bieber on Twitter, or the Kardashians... average people latch onto famous/hyped individuals far more than they get behind a faceless, nameless team.
              hahaha easy now. Portland has L.A. who's having another All-star season, Hickson who's suprising everybody this year with his doub-doubs and Batum who's playing ok. Although cant deny that D.L. is good, but adding him to the Raps current group may not be that successful right away. I say he'd be coming off the bench behind Calderon.

              Comment


              • #22
                TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
                hahaha easy now. Portland has L.A. who's having another All-star season, Hickson who's suprising everybody this year with his doub-doubs and Batum who's playing ok. Although cant deny that D.L. is good, but adding him to the Raps current group may not be that successful right away. I say he'd be coming off the bench behind Calderon.
                Me too, for this season. Lillard and Beal were my preffered draft targets and I think Lillard would have been a great compliment to Calderon, without costing the Raps a future 1st round pick. I would have enjoyed seeing Lillard and Valanciunas both starting the season on the 2nd unit, to help them transition to the NBA game, gain confidence and build chemistry together.

                + no Nash chase
                + no Fields signing
                + we likely would have signed somebody with the roughly $5M cap space available
                + no 1st round pick with crazy trade-limiting conditions being traded away
                +/- no Lowry
                - no Ross

                Comment


                • #23
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  Me too, for this season. Lillard and Beal were my preffered draft targets and I think Lillard would have been a great compliment to Calderon, without costing the Raps a future 1st round pick. I would have enjoyed seeing Lillard and Valanciunas both starting the season on the 2nd unit, to help them transition to the NBA game, gain confidence and build chemistry together.

                  + no Nash chase
                  + no Fields signing
                  + no 1st round pick with crazy trade-limiting conditions being traded away (no Lowry)
                  - no Ross
                  Damn you! now youre making the regrets come, hehehe
                  id gladly take lillard over ross.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    agree with a lot but feel bargs trade should be priority 1. Jose's expiring deal still has value to us as compared to the ostracized bargs. bargs out is best for everyone involved.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Lots to unpack. First props for the opinion piece -- I'm sure a semi news/sports site would love this.

                      In no particular order:

                      1/I like the idea of expanding the scouting staff. It makes too much sense. You hear about NBA scouts checking Div 3 games looking for talent so why not? The Raps could scout the CIS -- they do produce the odd Euro league player; more importantly they would be the only people scouting that league not from a Euro/Asian pro league. (this sounds like sarcasm but it isn't...seriously...no. I'm being serious)

                      2/Priority 1 needs to be trade Bargs not Jose. For all we know Jose has agreed to a smaller next contract already... If we were in the playoff hunt maybe -- he has high value, I guess, but he has more value mentoring Raptors players. Bargnani has no value to this squad that I can rationalize (unless he realizes the only way he'll see the floor is as a bruising center who occasionally floats to the perimeter).

                      3/ If Toronto wants to create a culture the first thing they need to do is STOP the high player turnover! If half the team is new EVERY YEAR there will never be a culture. The teams that have long term success keep essentially the same team, allow them to build chemistry, and watch them mature together. IF they let one of Demar, Ross, Davis, Amir, JV, Lowry mature into a star, slowly replace Pietrus, Bargs, maybe guys like Gray, and keep AA, Fields and Lucas those players will create a culture; first of hard work, and hopefully, eventually winning.

                      That last one goes for fans too. Fans need to stop screaming for the head of Demar until he makes a shot, or Lowry as he relearns his position. Fans need to cheer players who make an effort, instead of championing lazy players because of talent or potential. The fan base is just as important to a team's culture as the organization. We're the ones who buy tickets, merch, watch on TV, etc., what we like in a player is just as valid as any other source IF it is determined by the organization that it is feasible and may lead to success.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                        2/Priority 1 needs to be trade Bargs not Jose. For all we know Jose has agreed to a smaller next contract already... If we were in the playoff hunt maybe -- he has high value, I guess, but he has more value mentoring Raptors players. Bargnani has no value to this squad that I can rationalize (unless he realizes the only way he'll see the floor is as a bruising center who occasionally floats to the perimeter).
                        While I can agree that moving Bargnani is the most important piece moving forward, it still isn't priority #1. Bargnani's value is low right now. Much lower than it would have been in the past off-season. If we move him now, we are selling for pennies on the dollar. What would you get for him today? Not a first round draft pick from a non-playoff team. We need Bargnani to come back, play reasonably well, then move him for a package that would likely include a first round pick and an overpaid player (my proposed Okafor deal still seems like our best bet).

                        Jose's value is high, likely as high as it ever has been or ever will be. But that value decreases if he isn't on an expiring deal; so we need to move quickly. In my plan, I wouldn't re-sign Jose unless it was for well below what he is asking (rumour is he's looking for $6-$8M and I wouldn't pay more than $4.5M). Even then, I'd probably try to trade him anyway. As much as people like Jose, he isn't a part of this teams future. He doesn't fit any of the player profiles that I propose we target (terrible D, non-athletic, and is a vet but not on a cheap deal). Moving on from Jose makes the most sense. If we don't net another PG via trade, then we upgrade either via the draft (if we have the pick) or via free agency (Eric Maynor? Toney Douglas?).

                        At the end of the day, moving Bargnani might be more important for the culture change, but the Jose deal needs to happen first since his value is tied to his expiring contract. Personally, trading Jose is more important because it can bring in the assets to jump-start the franchise. Trading Bargnani today would bring in next to nothing and would be an addition by subtraction. I think Bargnani can play better than he was at the beginning of the season, thus bringing his trade value back up.

                        Related back to a previous comment about Omri Casspi, if Casspi is undervalued by his team (how does one earn the nickname "assfingers" anyway?), then I would offer Cleveland Aaron Gray for Casspi. Gray would give them a big bruiser to help protect the likes of Irving, Waiters and Thompson and also give them a big to match up against stronger opponents (speights is thinner than Ed Davis) with Varajao out. Casspi is definitely worth a look, and if the only thing he can do is shoot the 3, isn't that something we desperately need on the wing? Fields can't hit a 3 to save his life.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          slaw wrote: View Post
                          Finding bargains and star players need not be mutually exclusive as your post implies. Saying that the Raps need a franchise player is pretty obvious. No one with a brain disputes this so I'm not sure what your point is.

                          Moving forward, if the Raps can land a franchise player, they will need to pay him max money and that means you have less cap room for other pieces. Therefore, not only is there nothing wrong with "low cost" "good fit" guys, they are in fact essential if you want to win anything. Without them, you can't put together a good enough roster.
                          They've been mutually exclusive for the past 6 years of Colangelo.

                          We've collected many guys like this, some have panned out (to become average players good enough to make the bench of other teams) and some have not. Rarely have the Raptors swung for the fences, so to speak. You're talking about collecting these types of guys and then landing a franchise player. How, exactly? And we are AT the cap now, with a roster riddled of these types of players.

                          Let's put aside that we have no money right now and ask this: What franchise player will sign here? For all the free agency signings of franchise players you've seen over the past few years, which one of them went to a shit team? People talk complain about how Toronto isn't recognized as a city that players come to. Reality is, the team sucks so why would anyone want to start basically from scratch. Basically we're looking for someone who wants to chase the money which we don't have.

                          Btw I'm sorry that this topic is not in line with the topic of the thread.
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

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                          • #28
                            Axel wrote: View Post
                            While I can agree that moving Bargnani is the most important piece moving forward, it still isn't priority #1. Bargnani's value is low right now. Much lower than it would have been in the past off-season. If we move him now, we are selling for pennies on the dollar. What would you get for him today? Not a first round draft pick from a non-playoff team. We need Bargnani to come back, play reasonably well, then move him for a package that would likely include a first round pick and an overpaid player (my proposed Okafor deal still seems like our best bet).

                            Jose's value is high, likely as high as it ever has been or ever will be. But that value decreases if he isn't on an expiring deal; so we need to move quickly. In my plan, I wouldn't re-sign Jose unless it was for well below what he is asking (rumour is he's looking for $6-$8M and I wouldn't pay more than $4.5M). Even then, I'd probably try to trade him anyway. As much as people like Jose, he isn't a part of this teams future. He doesn't fit any of the player profiles that I propose we target (terrible D, non-athletic, and is a vet but not on a cheap deal). Moving on from Jose makes the most sense. If we don't net another PG via trade, then we upgrade either via the draft (if we have the pick) or via free agency (Eric Maynor? Toney Douglas?).

                            At the end of the day, moving Bargnani might be more important for the culture change, but the Jose deal needs to happen first since his value is tied to his expiring contract. Personally, trading Jose is more important because it can bring in the assets to jump-start the franchise. Trading Bargnani today would bring in next to nothing and would be an addition by subtraction. I think Bargnani can play better than he was at the beginning of the season, thus bringing his trade value back up.

                            Related back to a previous comment about Omri Casspi, if Casspi is undervalued by his team (how does one earn the nickname "assfingers" anyway?), then I would offer Cleveland Aaron Gray for Casspi. Gray would give them a big bruiser to help protect the likes of Irving, Waiters and Thompson and also give them a big to match up against stronger opponents (speights is thinner than Ed Davis) with Varajao out. Casspi is definitely worth a look, and if the only thing he can do is shoot the 3, isn't that something we desperately need on the wing? Fields can't hit a 3 to save his life.
                            As my third section suggests, I'm more interested in creating culture over moving our highest valued trade-able assets. I'm okay with paying Jose 6 mill a year (I understand why you are not, but I see PGs playing longer into their 30's). I WOULD want Jose to give us a small hometown discount, and not overpay by half a mill, which seems to be the current trend, but I see where you're coming from. I just don't like all this player turnover.

                            Gray for Casspi? Casspi can play some 4 but he's Fields without the defense, and with an outside shot. Basically, getting traded to Detroit destroyed his psyche. 1/ Fields will eventually rebuild his shot. 2/ We lose a big body (behind Amir and JV we are paper thin). I like his potential, but I have a problem seeing where he fits.

                            EDIT: Forgot to explain why I would move Bargs 1st. I'm more interested in creating culture, and the benefits of him being off the team are more important than getting maximum value. I was on the trade Bargs bus the past 2 years -- he still had potential, and a promising short run. Now even the US media sees him for what he is. Trading him for value seems unlikely. If you can get a decent big, preferably on an expiring contract and a 1st rounder you take it and move on.
                            Last edited by blackjitsu; Fri Jan 25, 2013, 02:48 PM.

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                            • #29
                              blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                              3/ If Toronto wants to create a culture the first thing they need to do is STOP the high player turnover! If half the team is new EVERY YEAR there will never be a culture. The teams that have long term success keep essentially the same team, allow them to build chemistry, and watch them mature together. IF they let one of Demar, Ross, Davis, Amir, JV, Lowry mature into a star, slowly replace Pietrus, Bargs, maybe guys like Gray, and keep AA, Fields and Lucas those players will create a culture; first of hard work, and hopefully, eventually winning.
                              I don't buy this argument any more than I bought the argument that winning meaningless games last season instead of 'tanking' for a better draft pick would create a "winning" culture.

                              I could care less about team chemistry, when the talent level is so poor compared to true contenders. What's the point of having a tight-knit team of players with the greatest team chemistry, when their individual/combined talents are nowhere near good enough to compete for the playoffs, let alone to progress deep into the playoffs or actually win the championship?

                              The team needs to improve its talent base first, THEN worry about team chemistry and culture. All you're doing is designing the most stylish car on the market, but nobody will ever buy one if it comes without an engine.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                                I don't buy this argument any more than I bought the argument that winning meaningless games last season instead of 'tanking' for a better draft pick would create a "winning" culture.

                                I could care less about team chemistry, when the talent level is so poor compared to true contenders. What's the point of having a tight-knit team of players with the greatest team chemistry, when their individual/combined talents are nowhere near good enough to compete for the playoffs, let alone to progress deep into the playoffs or actually win the championship?

                                The team needs to improve its talent base first, THEN worry about team chemistry and culture. All you're doing is designing the most stylish car on the market, but nobody will ever buy one if it comes without an engine.
                                Yup, totally agree. I never understood the chemistry argument either. When the players who'll be leading us to title contention aren't even on the roster yet, why would we care about chemistry now?

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