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  • #31
    blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    EDIT: Forgot to explain why I would move Bargs 1st. I'm more interested in creating culture, and the benefits of him being off the team are more important than getting maximum value. I was on the trade Bargs bus the past 2 years -- he still had potential, and a promising short run. Now even the US media sees him for what he is. Trading him for value seems unlikely. If you can get a decent big, preferably on an expiring contract and a 1st rounder you take it and move on.
    If you can get that for Bargnani at this point, then there is no need to hesitate, but I very much doubt you could even get a first rounder for him right now, regardless of the contract taken back. We need Bargnani to play reasonably well before he has ANY value, then trade him. Hence, priority #2.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • #32
      ebrian wrote: View Post
      Let's put aside that we have no money right now and ask this: What franchise player will sign here? For all the free agency signings of franchise players you've seen over the past few years, which one of them went to a shit team? People talk complain about how Toronto isn't recognized as a city that players come to. Reality is, the team sucks so why would anyone want to start basically from scratch. Basically we're looking for someone who wants to chase the money which we don't have.
      I dont think free agency is a viable option for this team right now for landing anyone better than a role player. Unless we get lucky and can bring in a Euro Import whose impact was previously underestimated, the only way we are getting a star talent is through the draft or by trade. Right now we dont have the assets to acquire a star player. To trade for a star you need lots of draft picks, and young players on their rookie deals.

      I think the model we should most be trying to emulate is what Memphis has done. Create a solid defensive team identity. That way, even if we are still losing games, we are competitive and people would start to see value in the sense that "they are only one good shooter away", or "if they just had that one low post scorer". That would put us into a situation where the free agent route would at least become a viable option and in the mean time give us a team that we can be proud of (for their on-court efforts). With JV, Ross and Lowry, I think we are on the path to a Memphis style anyway. 3 talented young players who value defence. It may take a few years for JV and Ross to develop, but I don't see any reason why JV can't be as good (if not better) than Marc Gasol or that Ross can't become a poor-man's (at worst hopefully) version of Rudy Gay. I'd already take Lowry over Conley, so we are 3/5's of the way to having the right pieces.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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      • #33
        Axel wrote: View Post
        If you can get that for Bargnani at this point, then there is no need to hesitate, but I very much doubt you could even get a first rounder for him right now, regardless of the contract taken back. We need Bargnani to play reasonably well before he has ANY value, then trade him. Hence, priority #2.
        Priority ranking doesn't necessarily need to match the sequential order of events. So although it's true that Bargnani will need to sell himself before any trade, trading him is still the most important factor (at least in my opinion) for this team to take a step forward.

        If Calderon isn't traded, he still represents $10 million in cap savings, thus the Raptors still benefit even without a trade. That makes trading him less of a "priority" in my books.

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        • #34
          Nilanka wrote: View Post
          Priority ranking doesn't necessarily need to match the sequential order of events. So although it's true that Bargnani will need to sell himself before any trade, trading him is still the most important factor (at least in my opinion) for this team to take a step forward.

          If Calderon isn't traded, he still represents $10 million in cap savings, thus the Raptors still benefit even without a trade. That makes trading him less of a "priority" in my books.
          I can get that, but keeping Bargnani into next season, isn't as much of an issue to me (as long as his role is suitable for his production). Trading Jose needs to happen before the trade deadline, so therefore in my proposal management plan, actively trying to trade Jose trumps all.

          Letting Jose walk for nothing would be a bad move - pro-active teams tend to do better.
          Keeping Jose to split duties with Lowry isn't ideal in my mind either - it's time for everyone to move on.
          I 100% do not believe that Jose will re-sign here unless it is for more money than he is being offered elsewhere.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #35
            Axel wrote: View Post
            I dont think free agency is a viable option for this team right now for landing anyone better than a role player. Unless we get lucky and can bring in a Euro Import whose impact was previously underestimated, the only way we are getting a star talent is through the draft or by trade. Right now we dont have the assets to acquire a star player. To trade for a star you need lots of draft picks, and young players on their rookie deals.

            I think the model we should most be trying to emulate is what Memphis has done. Create a solid defensive team identity. That way, even if we are still losing games, we are competitive and people would start to see value in the sense that "they are only one good shooter away", or "if they just had that one low post scorer". That would put us into a situation where the free agent route would at least become a viable option and in the mean time give us a team that we can be proud of (for their on-court efforts). With JV, Ross and Lowry, I think we are on the path to a Memphis style anyway. 3 talented young players who value defence. It may take a few years for JV and Ross to develop, but I don't see any reason why JV can't be as good (if not better) than Marc Gasol or that Ross can't become a poor-man's (at worst hopefully) version of Rudy Gay. I'd already take Lowry over Conley, so we are 3/5's of the way to having the right pieces.
            I agree. I guess the point of my post was to argue that constantly acquiring bargains and 'good fit' players is getting us no where. Guys like Alan Anderson, Jamario Moon, Landry Fields, James Johnson, Sonny Weems or PJ Tucker just aren't going to cut it anymore. No matter the number of these types of players we acquire they will never lead to a star player because no one really wanted them to begin with. We have to stop with this hope that we can turn little-known players with potential and turn them into great players. Yes there are exceptions to this rule, but this team cannot afford to employ this method any longer. Our track record speaks for itself. The only player I can think of where this worked was Jose Calderon, and they've been trying to replace him ever since. We have to stop trading draft picks for guys we hope will be great if given more playing time. If he is not already great, don't trade a draft pick for him. We need more draft picks, not less.
            your pal,
            ebrian

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            • #36
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              I don't buy this argument any more than I bought the argument that winning meaningless games last season instead of 'tanking' for a better draft pick would create a "winning" culture.

              I could care less about team chemistry, when the talent level is so poor compared to true contenders. What's the point of having a tight-knit team of players with the greatest team chemistry, when their individual/combined talents are nowhere near good enough to compete for the playoffs, let alone to progress deep into the playoffs or actually win the championship?

              The team needs to improve its talent base first, THEN worry about team chemistry and culture. All you're doing is designing the most stylish car on the market, but nobody will ever buy one if it comes without an engine.
              Not going to go in depth here. On Fan 590 they were saying it takes 7 years to get out of the lottery (on avg). So for me that rules out tanking. I'm not passionately going to defend my position, however, other than Miami who colluded to build there team what NBA team has won without maintaining personnel? Celtics built up a team of assets and actually kept a fair amount after those trades.

              Finally, if winning culture means so little why have only a handful of teams won NBA titles? I would also argue a team needs solid bench players and secondary starters as much as a stud star. Are you saying that DD, ED, JV, AD, TR, and KL are not solid secondary players? If so I see what you're saying, but I think we have at least 6 solid secondary players.

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              • #37
                blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                Not going to go in depth here. On Fan 590 they were saying it takes 7 years to get out of the lottery (on avg). So for me that rules out tanking. I'm not passionately going to defend my position, however, other than Miami who colluded to build there team what NBA team has won without maintaining personnel? Celtics built up a team of assets and actually kept a fair amount after those trades.

                Finally, if winning culture means so little why have only a handful of teams won NBA titles? I would also argue a team needs solid bench players and secondary starters as much as a stud star. Are you saying that DD, ED, JV, AD, TR, and KL are not solid secondary players? If so I see what you're saying, but I think we have at least 6 solid secondary players.
                Getting out of the lottery more quickly is going to be helped by drafting better talent (ie: top 5 draft picks) a lot more than building culture and drafting in the mid-late lottery is going to. If anything, I think that first bolded statement points out the argument FOR tanking, not against tanking. I think the average is driven up to 7 years by teams that stay on the threshold of the playoffs for several years, constantly not being good enough to make the playoffs and being the best of the non-playoff teams (ie: a treadmill team). Tanking hard and drafting high in consecutive years is the most effective way of breaking out of the treadmill cycle, IMO.

                That second bolded statement is also why I'm in favor of blowing up the roster, without fear of high turnover. I think this team is loaded with 2nd unit players. However, I don't think we have any legit starters on a good playoff team. I think Valanciunas and Ross have the potential to develop into legit starters, but they're realistically at least 1-3 years away. I think Lowry is borderline, but he seems better suited to being a backup PG who can use his score-first instincts to lead a group of high-energy sparkplugs off the bench, rather than a floor general for the starting unit. Davis is also borderline, but is too small right now to start against bigger PFs in the league, so he too would be better served as a solid 2nd unit PF.

                This team needs more talent. Building culture while becoming a treadmill team is the exact opposite of what this team desperately needs. We need legit starting talent.

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                • #38
                  ebrian wrote: View Post
                  I agree. I guess the point of my post was to argue that constantly acquiring bargains and 'good fit' players is getting us no where. Guys like Alan Anderson, Jamario Moon, Landry Fields, James Johnson, Sonny Weems or PJ Tucker just aren't going to cut it anymore. No matter the number of these types of players we acquire they will never lead to a star player because no one really wanted them to begin with. We have to stop with this hope that we can turn little-known players with potential and turn them into great players. Yes there are exceptions to this rule, but this team cannot afford to employ this method any longer. Our track record speaks for itself. The only player I can think of where this worked was Jose Calderon, and they've been trying to replace him ever since. We have to stop trading draft picks for guys we hope will be great if given more playing time. If he is not already great, don't trade a draft pick for him. We need more draft picks, not less.
                  I agree that we need a star player but until we find one in the draft or we acquire enough picks/prospects to swing a deal, I don't see what else we can do to get one. I am not in favour of tanking or blowing the whole thing up. I think Raptors fans would be happy to be a competitive playoff team after years of lottery bound teams. It might take us another year or two anyway so whatever picks we have (via trade or our own) are likely to be in the 10-15 range if we can build around the defensive identity. We need a really strong scouting team to make sure we make the best of those picks. Lots of talented players get drafted outside the top 5 or even 10, it's just that the Raps haven't had much luck historically with picks in that range. Improve those picks and you improve the team.
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    We definitely need to trade Jose. I love Jose's attitude and professionalism but we should not focusing on playoffs. We need to just let Lowry burn 40+ minutes a night this season and see how he adjusts and what he can really do as the starter.

                    We've made our choice as our PG of the future trading our pick for Lowry. Let's get a pick in return for Jose and if Lowry doesnt work out after a season of starters minutes then let's go from there.
                    in masai we trust

                    water covers 98% of the earth, Mitchell Robinson covers the other 2%

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