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Thread: The plan moving forward...a proposal

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    We also could've kept our 1st round pick and not bothered with Lowry either. Lillard being mentored by Calderon was and still is an enjoyable thought. At least we had all those winning-culture building victories!

    With regards to the bolded, I don't entirely blame BC/DC for that. I think it's less to do with selling support players (ie: Bosh, Bargnani, DeRozan) as super-star franchise players. I think it is more marketing driven, with the need to create a 'face of the franchise' to give the team a marketable identity that fans can relate to and rally behind. Plus, in this day and age, media and fans alike would elevate a single player as 'the guy', even if the franchise itself didn't. Sports especially is all about the star player, not the franchise. It's no different than the popularity of Justin Bieber on Twitter, or the Kardashians... average people latch onto famous/hyped individuals far more than they get behind a faceless, nameless team.
    hahaha easy now. Portland has L.A. who's having another All-star season, Hickson who's suprising everybody this year with his doub-doubs and Batum who's playing ok. Although cant deny that D.L. is good, but adding him to the Raps current group may not be that successful right away. I say he'd be coming off the bench behind Calderon.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    hahaha easy now. Portland has L.A. who's having another All-star season, Hickson who's suprising everybody this year with his doub-doubs and Batum who's playing ok. Although cant deny that D.L. is good, but adding him to the Raps current group may not be that successful right away. I say he'd be coming off the bench behind Calderon.
    Me too, for this season. Lillard and Beal were my preffered draft targets and I think Lillard would have been a great compliment to Calderon, without costing the Raps a future 1st round pick. I would have enjoyed seeing Lillard and Valanciunas both starting the season on the 2nd unit, to help them transition to the NBA game, gain confidence and build chemistry together.

    + no Nash chase
    + no Fields signing
    + we likely would have signed somebody with the roughly $5M cap space available
    + no 1st round pick with crazy trade-limiting conditions being traded away
    +/- no Lowry
    - no Ross

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Me too, for this season. Lillard and Beal were my preffered draft targets and I think Lillard would have been a great compliment to Calderon, without costing the Raps a future 1st round pick. I would have enjoyed seeing Lillard and Valanciunas both starting the season on the 2nd unit, to help them transition to the NBA game, gain confidence and build chemistry together.

    + no Nash chase
    + no Fields signing
    + no 1st round pick with crazy trade-limiting conditions being traded away (no Lowry)
    - no Ross
    Damn you! now youre making the regrets come, hehehe
    id gladly take lillard over ross.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    agree with a lot but feel bargs trade should be priority 1. Jose's expiring deal still has value to us as compared to the ostracized bargs. bargs out is best for everyone involved.

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    Lots to unpack. First props for the opinion piece -- I'm sure a semi news/sports site would love this.

    In no particular order:

    1/I like the idea of expanding the scouting staff. It makes too much sense. You hear about NBA scouts checking Div 3 games looking for talent so why not? The Raps could scout the CIS -- they do produce the odd Euro league player; more importantly they would be the only people scouting that league not from a Euro/Asian pro league. (this sounds like sarcasm but it isn't...seriously...no. I'm being serious)

    2/Priority 1 needs to be trade Bargs not Jose. For all we know Jose has agreed to a smaller next contract already... If we were in the playoff hunt maybe -- he has high value, I guess, but he has more value mentoring Raptors players. Bargnani has no value to this squad that I can rationalize (unless he realizes the only way he'll see the floor is as a bruising center who occasionally floats to the perimeter).

    3/ If Toronto wants to create a culture the first thing they need to do is STOP the high player turnover! If half the team is new EVERY YEAR there will never be a culture. The teams that have long term success keep essentially the same team, allow them to build chemistry, and watch them mature together. IF they let one of Demar, Ross, Davis, Amir, JV, Lowry mature into a star, slowly replace Pietrus, Bargs, maybe guys like Gray, and keep AA, Fields and Lucas those players will create a culture; first of hard work, and hopefully, eventually winning.

    That last one goes for fans too. Fans need to stop screaming for the head of Demar until he makes a shot, or Lowry as he relearns his position. Fans need to cheer players who make an effort, instead of championing lazy players because of talent or potential. The fan base is just as important to a team's culture as the organization. We're the ones who buy tickets, merch, watch on TV, etc., what we like in a player is just as valid as any other source IF it is determined by the organization that it is feasible and may lead to success.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    2/Priority 1 needs to be trade Bargs not Jose. For all we know Jose has agreed to a smaller next contract already... If we were in the playoff hunt maybe -- he has high value, I guess, but he has more value mentoring Raptors players. Bargnani has no value to this squad that I can rationalize (unless he realizes the only way he'll see the floor is as a bruising center who occasionally floats to the perimeter).
    While I can agree that moving Bargnani is the most important piece moving forward, it still isn't priority #1. Bargnani's value is low right now. Much lower than it would have been in the past off-season. If we move him now, we are selling for pennies on the dollar. What would you get for him today? Not a first round draft pick from a non-playoff team. We need Bargnani to come back, play reasonably well, then move him for a package that would likely include a first round pick and an overpaid player (my proposed Okafor deal still seems like our best bet).

    Jose's value is high, likely as high as it ever has been or ever will be. But that value decreases if he isn't on an expiring deal; so we need to move quickly. In my plan, I wouldn't re-sign Jose unless it was for well below what he is asking (rumour is he's looking for $6-$8M and I wouldn't pay more than $4.5M). Even then, I'd probably try to trade him anyway. As much as people like Jose, he isn't a part of this teams future. He doesn't fit any of the player profiles that I propose we target (terrible D, non-athletic, and is a vet but not on a cheap deal). Moving on from Jose makes the most sense. If we don't net another PG via trade, then we upgrade either via the draft (if we have the pick) or via free agency (Eric Maynor? Toney Douglas?).

    At the end of the day, moving Bargnani might be more important for the culture change, but the Jose deal needs to happen first since his value is tied to his expiring contract. Personally, trading Jose is more important because it can bring in the assets to jump-start the franchise. Trading Bargnani today would bring in next to nothing and would be an addition by subtraction. I think Bargnani can play better than he was at the beginning of the season, thus bringing his trade value back up.

    Related back to a previous comment about Omri Casspi, if Casspi is undervalued by his team (how does one earn the nickname "assfingers" anyway?), then I would offer Cleveland Aaron Gray for Casspi. Gray would give them a big bruiser to help protect the likes of Irving, Waiters and Thompson and also give them a big to match up against stronger opponents (speights is thinner than Ed Davis) with Varajao out. Casspi is definitely worth a look, and if the only thing he can do is shoot the 3, isn't that something we desperately need on the wing? Fields can't hit a 3 to save his life.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Finding bargains and star players need not be mutually exclusive as your post implies. Saying that the Raps need a franchise player is pretty obvious. No one with a brain disputes this so I'm not sure what your point is.

    Moving forward, if the Raps can land a franchise player, they will need to pay him max money and that means you have less cap room for other pieces. Therefore, not only is there nothing wrong with "low cost" "good fit" guys, they are in fact essential if you want to win anything. Without them, you can't put together a good enough roster.
    They've been mutually exclusive for the past 6 years of Colangelo.

    We've collected many guys like this, some have panned out (to become average players good enough to make the bench of other teams) and some have not. Rarely have the Raptors swung for the fences, so to speak. You're talking about collecting these types of guys and then landing a franchise player. How, exactly? And we are AT the cap now, with a roster riddled of these types of players.

    Let's put aside that we have no money right now and ask this: What franchise player will sign here? For all the free agency signings of franchise players you've seen over the past few years, which one of them went to a shit team? People talk complain about how Toronto isn't recognized as a city that players come to. Reality is, the team sucks so why would anyone want to start basically from scratch. Basically we're looking for someone who wants to chase the money which we don't have.

    Btw I'm sorry that this topic is not in line with the topic of the thread.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  8. #28
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    While I can agree that moving Bargnani is the most important piece moving forward, it still isn't priority #1. Bargnani's value is low right now. Much lower than it would have been in the past off-season. If we move him now, we are selling for pennies on the dollar. What would you get for him today? Not a first round draft pick from a non-playoff team. We need Bargnani to come back, play reasonably well, then move him for a package that would likely include a first round pick and an overpaid player (my proposed Okafor deal still seems like our best bet).

    Jose's value is high, likely as high as it ever has been or ever will be. But that value decreases if he isn't on an expiring deal; so we need to move quickly. In my plan, I wouldn't re-sign Jose unless it was for well below what he is asking (rumour is he's looking for $6-$8M and I wouldn't pay more than $4.5M). Even then, I'd probably try to trade him anyway. As much as people like Jose, he isn't a part of this teams future. He doesn't fit any of the player profiles that I propose we target (terrible D, non-athletic, and is a vet but not on a cheap deal). Moving on from Jose makes the most sense. If we don't net another PG via trade, then we upgrade either via the draft (if we have the pick) or via free agency (Eric Maynor? Toney Douglas?).

    At the end of the day, moving Bargnani might be more important for the culture change, but the Jose deal needs to happen first since his value is tied to his expiring contract. Personally, trading Jose is more important because it can bring in the assets to jump-start the franchise. Trading Bargnani today would bring in next to nothing and would be an addition by subtraction. I think Bargnani can play better than he was at the beginning of the season, thus bringing his trade value back up.

    Related back to a previous comment about Omri Casspi, if Casspi is undervalued by his team (how does one earn the nickname "assfingers" anyway?), then I would offer Cleveland Aaron Gray for Casspi. Gray would give them a big bruiser to help protect the likes of Irving, Waiters and Thompson and also give them a big to match up against stronger opponents (speights is thinner than Ed Davis) with Varajao out. Casspi is definitely worth a look, and if the only thing he can do is shoot the 3, isn't that something we desperately need on the wing? Fields can't hit a 3 to save his life.
    As my third section suggests, I'm more interested in creating culture over moving our highest valued trade-able assets. I'm okay with paying Jose 6 mill a year (I understand why you are not, but I see PGs playing longer into their 30's). I WOULD want Jose to give us a small hometown discount, and not overpay by half a mill, which seems to be the current trend, but I see where you're coming from. I just don't like all this player turnover.

    Gray for Casspi? Casspi can play some 4 but he's Fields without the defense, and with an outside shot. Basically, getting traded to Detroit destroyed his psyche. 1/ Fields will eventually rebuild his shot. 2/ We lose a big body (behind Amir and JV we are paper thin). I like his potential, but I have a problem seeing where he fits.

    EDIT: Forgot to explain why I would move Bargs 1st. I'm more interested in creating culture, and the benefits of him being off the team are more important than getting maximum value. I was on the trade Bargs bus the past 2 years -- he still had potential, and a promising short run. Now even the US media sees him for what he is. Trading him for value seems unlikely. If you can get a decent big, preferably on an expiring contract and a 1st rounder you take it and move on.
    Last edited by blackjitsu; Fri Jan 25th, 2013 at 01:48 PM.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    3/ If Toronto wants to create a culture the first thing they need to do is STOP the high player turnover! If half the team is new EVERY YEAR there will never be a culture. The teams that have long term success keep essentially the same team, allow them to build chemistry, and watch them mature together. IF they let one of Demar, Ross, Davis, Amir, JV, Lowry mature into a star, slowly replace Pietrus, Bargs, maybe guys like Gray, and keep AA, Fields and Lucas those players will create a culture; first of hard work, and hopefully, eventually winning.
    I don't buy this argument any more than I bought the argument that winning meaningless games last season instead of 'tanking' for a better draft pick would create a "winning" culture.

    I could care less about team chemistry, when the talent level is so poor compared to true contenders. What's the point of having a tight-knit team of players with the greatest team chemistry, when their individual/combined talents are nowhere near good enough to compete for the playoffs, let alone to progress deep into the playoffs or actually win the championship?

    The team needs to improve its talent base first, THEN worry about team chemistry and culture. All you're doing is designing the most stylish car on the market, but nobody will ever buy one if it comes without an engine.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't buy this argument any more than I bought the argument that winning meaningless games last season instead of 'tanking' for a better draft pick would create a "winning" culture.

    I could care less about team chemistry, when the talent level is so poor compared to true contenders. What's the point of having a tight-knit team of players with the greatest team chemistry, when their individual/combined talents are nowhere near good enough to compete for the playoffs, let alone to progress deep into the playoffs or actually win the championship?

    The team needs to improve its talent base first, THEN worry about team chemistry and culture. All you're doing is designing the most stylish car on the market, but nobody will ever buy one if it comes without an engine.
    Yup, totally agree. I never understood the chemistry argument either. When the players who'll be leading us to title contention aren't even on the roster yet, why would we care about chemistry now?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    EDIT: Forgot to explain why I would move Bargs 1st. I'm more interested in creating culture, and the benefits of him being off the team are more important than getting maximum value. I was on the trade Bargs bus the past 2 years -- he still had potential, and a promising short run. Now even the US media sees him for what he is. Trading him for value seems unlikely. If you can get a decent big, preferably on an expiring contract and a 1st rounder you take it and move on.
    If you can get that for Bargnani at this point, then there is no need to hesitate, but I very much doubt you could even get a first rounder for him right now, regardless of the contract taken back. We need Bargnani to play reasonably well before he has ANY value, then trade him. Hence, priority #2.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Let's put aside that we have no money right now and ask this: What franchise player will sign here? For all the free agency signings of franchise players you've seen over the past few years, which one of them went to a shit team? People talk complain about how Toronto isn't recognized as a city that players come to. Reality is, the team sucks so why would anyone want to start basically from scratch. Basically we're looking for someone who wants to chase the money which we don't have.
    I dont think free agency is a viable option for this team right now for landing anyone better than a role player. Unless we get lucky and can bring in a Euro Import whose impact was previously underestimated, the only way we are getting a star talent is through the draft or by trade. Right now we dont have the assets to acquire a star player. To trade for a star you need lots of draft picks, and young players on their rookie deals.

    I think the model we should most be trying to emulate is what Memphis has done. Create a solid defensive team identity. That way, even if we are still losing games, we are competitive and people would start to see value in the sense that "they are only one good shooter away", or "if they just had that one low post scorer". That would put us into a situation where the free agent route would at least become a viable option and in the mean time give us a team that we can be proud of (for their on-court efforts). With JV, Ross and Lowry, I think we are on the path to a Memphis style anyway. 3 talented young players who value defence. It may take a few years for JV and Ross to develop, but I don't see any reason why JV can't be as good (if not better) than Marc Gasol or that Ross can't become a poor-man's (at worst hopefully) version of Rudy Gay. I'd already take Lowry over Conley, so we are 3/5's of the way to having the right pieces.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    If you can get that for Bargnani at this point, then there is no need to hesitate, but I very much doubt you could even get a first rounder for him right now, regardless of the contract taken back. We need Bargnani to play reasonably well before he has ANY value, then trade him. Hence, priority #2.
    Priority ranking doesn't necessarily need to match the sequential order of events. So although it's true that Bargnani will need to sell himself before any trade, trading him is still the most important factor (at least in my opinion) for this team to take a step forward.

    If Calderon isn't traded, he still represents $10 million in cap savings, thus the Raptors still benefit even without a trade. That makes trading him less of a "priority" in my books.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Priority ranking doesn't necessarily need to match the sequential order of events. So although it's true that Bargnani will need to sell himself before any trade, trading him is still the most important factor (at least in my opinion) for this team to take a step forward.

    If Calderon isn't traded, he still represents $10 million in cap savings, thus the Raptors still benefit even without a trade. That makes trading him less of a "priority" in my books.
    I can get that, but keeping Bargnani into next season, isn't as much of an issue to me (as long as his role is suitable for his production). Trading Jose needs to happen before the trade deadline, so therefore in my proposal management plan, actively trying to trade Jose trumps all.

    Letting Jose walk for nothing would be a bad move - pro-active teams tend to do better.
    Keeping Jose to split duties with Lowry isn't ideal in my mind either - it's time for everyone to move on.
    I 100% do not believe that Jose will re-sign here unless it is for more money than he is being offered elsewhere.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I dont think free agency is a viable option for this team right now for landing anyone better than a role player. Unless we get lucky and can bring in a Euro Import whose impact was previously underestimated, the only way we are getting a star talent is through the draft or by trade. Right now we dont have the assets to acquire a star player. To trade for a star you need lots of draft picks, and young players on their rookie deals.

    I think the model we should most be trying to emulate is what Memphis has done. Create a solid defensive team identity. That way, even if we are still losing games, we are competitive and people would start to see value in the sense that "they are only one good shooter away", or "if they just had that one low post scorer". That would put us into a situation where the free agent route would at least become a viable option and in the mean time give us a team that we can be proud of (for their on-court efforts). With JV, Ross and Lowry, I think we are on the path to a Memphis style anyway. 3 talented young players who value defence. It may take a few years for JV and Ross to develop, but I don't see any reason why JV can't be as good (if not better) than Marc Gasol or that Ross can't become a poor-man's (at worst hopefully) version of Rudy Gay. I'd already take Lowry over Conley, so we are 3/5's of the way to having the right pieces.
    I agree. I guess the point of my post was to argue that constantly acquiring bargains and 'good fit' players is getting us no where. Guys like Alan Anderson, Jamario Moon, Landry Fields, James Johnson, Sonny Weems or PJ Tucker just aren't going to cut it anymore. No matter the number of these types of players we acquire they will never lead to a star player because no one really wanted them to begin with. We have to stop with this hope that we can turn little-known players with potential and turn them into great players. Yes there are exceptions to this rule, but this team cannot afford to employ this method any longer. Our track record speaks for itself. The only player I can think of where this worked was Jose Calderon, and they've been trying to replace him ever since. We have to stop trading draft picks for guys we hope will be great if given more playing time. If he is not already great, don't trade a draft pick for him. We need more draft picks, not less.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  16. #36
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I don't buy this argument any more than I bought the argument that winning meaningless games last season instead of 'tanking' for a better draft pick would create a "winning" culture.

    I could care less about team chemistry, when the talent level is so poor compared to true contenders. What's the point of having a tight-knit team of players with the greatest team chemistry, when their individual/combined talents are nowhere near good enough to compete for the playoffs, let alone to progress deep into the playoffs or actually win the championship?

    The team needs to improve its talent base first, THEN worry about team chemistry and culture. All you're doing is designing the most stylish car on the market, but nobody will ever buy one if it comes without an engine.
    Not going to go in depth here. On Fan 590 they were saying it takes 7 years to get out of the lottery (on avg). So for me that rules out tanking. I'm not passionately going to defend my position, however, other than Miami who colluded to build there team what NBA team has won without maintaining personnel? Celtics built up a team of assets and actually kept a fair amount after those trades.

    Finally, if winning culture means so little why have only a handful of teams won NBA titles? I would also argue a team needs solid bench players and secondary starters as much as a stud star. Are you saying that DD, ED, JV, AD, TR, and KL are not solid secondary players? If so I see what you're saying, but I think we have at least 6 solid secondary players.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Not going to go in depth here. On Fan 590 they were saying it takes 7 years to get out of the lottery (on avg). So for me that rules out tanking. I'm not passionately going to defend my position, however, other than Miami who colluded to build there team what NBA team has won without maintaining personnel? Celtics built up a team of assets and actually kept a fair amount after those trades.

    Finally, if winning culture means so little why have only a handful of teams won NBA titles? I would also argue a team needs solid bench players and secondary starters as much as a stud star. Are you saying that DD, ED, JV, AD, TR, and KL are not solid secondary players? If so I see what you're saying, but I think we have at least 6 solid secondary players.
    Getting out of the lottery more quickly is going to be helped by drafting better talent (ie: top 5 draft picks) a lot more than building culture and drafting in the mid-late lottery is going to. If anything, I think that first bolded statement points out the argument FOR tanking, not against tanking. I think the average is driven up to 7 years by teams that stay on the threshold of the playoffs for several years, constantly not being good enough to make the playoffs and being the best of the non-playoff teams (ie: a treadmill team). Tanking hard and drafting high in consecutive years is the most effective way of breaking out of the treadmill cycle, IMO.

    That second bolded statement is also why I'm in favor of blowing up the roster, without fear of high turnover. I think this team is loaded with 2nd unit players. However, I don't think we have any legit starters on a good playoff team. I think Valanciunas and Ross have the potential to develop into legit starters, but they're realistically at least 1-3 years away. I think Lowry is borderline, but he seems better suited to being a backup PG who can use his score-first instincts to lead a group of high-energy sparkplugs off the bench, rather than a floor general for the starting unit. Davis is also borderline, but is too small right now to start against bigger PFs in the league, so he too would be better served as a solid 2nd unit PF.

    This team needs more talent. Building culture while becoming a treadmill team is the exact opposite of what this team desperately needs. We need legit starting talent.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I agree. I guess the point of my post was to argue that constantly acquiring bargains and 'good fit' players is getting us no where. Guys like Alan Anderson, Jamario Moon, Landry Fields, James Johnson, Sonny Weems or PJ Tucker just aren't going to cut it anymore. No matter the number of these types of players we acquire they will never lead to a star player because no one really wanted them to begin with. We have to stop with this hope that we can turn little-known players with potential and turn them into great players. Yes there are exceptions to this rule, but this team cannot afford to employ this method any longer. Our track record speaks for itself. The only player I can think of where this worked was Jose Calderon, and they've been trying to replace him ever since. We have to stop trading draft picks for guys we hope will be great if given more playing time. If he is not already great, don't trade a draft pick for him. We need more draft picks, not less.
    I agree that we need a star player but until we find one in the draft or we acquire enough picks/prospects to swing a deal, I don't see what else we can do to get one. I am not in favour of tanking or blowing the whole thing up. I think Raptors fans would be happy to be a competitive playoff team after years of lottery bound teams. It might take us another year or two anyway so whatever picks we have (via trade or our own) are likely to be in the 10-15 range if we can build around the defensive identity. We need a really strong scouting team to make sure we make the best of those picks. Lots of talented players get drafted outside the top 5 or even 10, it's just that the Raps haven't had much luck historically with picks in that range. Improve those picks and you improve the team.

  19. #39
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    We definitely need to trade Jose. I love Jose's attitude and professionalism but we should not focusing on playoffs. We need to just let Lowry burn 40+ minutes a night this season and see how he adjusts and what he can really do as the starter.

    We've made our choice as our PG of the future trading our pick for Lowry. Let's get a pick in return for Jose and if Lowry doesnt work out after a season of starters minutes then let's go from there.

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