View Poll Results: What do you want to see happen before Feb.21st?

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  • Action: move some of our healthy players, and/or those returning from injury

    14 66.67%
  • Stay: let this unit play together for another 40 games - evaluate this summer

    7 33.33%
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Thread: "The Big 10" - where optimists come to discuss the 2nd half of the Raps season

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Default "The Big 10" - where optimists come to discuss the 2nd half of the Raps season

    After posting in a Bargnani-related thread I was lead to a vision of the healthy Raptors squad ... and I did something dangerous ... I believed. We've had our hearts stomped many times, but sometimes you gotta believe.

    WHY?

    If Jose Calderon and Ed Davis can remain as high performing, valuable starters on our club - our bench unit looks like this:

    Kyle Lowry
    Terrence Ross
    Allan Anderson
    Andrea Bargnani
    Amir Johnson

    Toughness, leadership, offense, hustle, distance shooting, penetration, size, speed ... pretty nasty group to throw at opposing 2nd units.

    If the starting crew (all of this assuming Bargs and Val return within the month) of Jose, Demar, Landry, Ed and Jonas can keep the game close - we will have the chance to win a lot of games.

    -If no one above us falters, we may not sneak into the playoffs - but there is a chance to make some noise.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Not to rain on your parade, but at some point in the season, that was likely our prefered starting line-up, lol.

    I believe that the team can be competitive with it's current roster, but I also believe that we need a plan (shameless plug for my other thread). Bargnani should come back better that he was when he got hurt. Not last year's #13 Bargnani, but somewhere in the middle.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Take other teams shit for prospects and picks.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Basketball is not hockey. You don't usually see two different line ups. DeMar plays a tonne of minutes (usually 40+) and so he would take away time from one of those 'bench' players. The key issue with Bargnani coming off the bench is can he get hot right away? He is a jump shooter, and jump shooters need to stay warm and if he isn't starting is he going to shoot a lot of bricks when he comes in? Plus he'll be taking at least 10-15 minutes away from Ed's playing time which will hurt his game.

    The only thing I like about Bargnani is that he's an upgrade over Gray. Gray should be nailed to the bench, and Bargnani should learn to cover any big man that Gray would normally cover until JV is back on the team.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Take other teams shit for prospects and picks.
    +1

    We're still 3 years (minimum) away from being relevant. The only goal should be to improve the talent on the roster. "Chemistry" between Calderon and Amir be damned.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Take other teams shit for prospects and picks.
    +1
    @jerboat

  7. #7
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    I think the most optimistic sign for future development would be a real commitment to letting the young guys figure it out, play together, and develop their games while having the coaching staff understand what their roles can be.

    To that end, minutes should be going to DeMar, Ross, JV, Davis, Fields, Lowry, and Amir over guys who are on their way out or have demonstrated they can't/won't get it done. This is part of why I'm not huge on JC or AB (they are what they are at this point, and re-signing them for a young team won't make sense).

    Cutting down to a solid 8-9 man rotation composed of the guys most likely to give you real value next year, and seeing if they can put it together would be the way to go. The real reason I don't include JC in there (who is valuable as a stabilizer for the new guys) is that I firmly believe he should be traded for picks rather than let walk for nothing.

    Play the younger guys, let them figure it out, and let them learn. If you aren't winning a championship, the next most important things to do are develop a foundation and maintain flexibility. So strangely, the latter half of this season is best for the Raptors if they achieve that. I'd rather the team miss the 8 seed in the playoffs but develop the young guys to be much stronger next season than scrape for the 8 with limited veterans, get annihilated in the first round, and then fall off worse next year.

  8. #8
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Reinholt wrote: View Post
    I think the most optimistic sign for future development would be a real commitment to letting the young guys figure it out, play together, and develop their games while having the coaching staff understand what their roles can be.

    To that end, minutes should be going to DeMar, Ross, JV, Davis, Fields, Lowry, and Amir over guys who are on their way out or have demonstrated they can't/won't get it done. This is part of why I'm not huge on JC or AB (they are what they are at this point, and re-signing them for a young team won't make sense).

    Cutting down to a solid 8-9 man rotation composed of the guys most likely to give you real value next year, and seeing if they can put it together would be the way to go. The real reason I don't include JC in there (who is valuable as a stabilizer for the new guys) is that I firmly believe he should be traded for picks rather than let walk for nothing.

    Play the younger guys, let them figure it out, and let them learn. If you aren't winning a championship, the next most important things to do are develop a foundation and maintain flexibility. So strangely, the latter half of this season is best for the Raptors if they achieve that. I'd rather the team miss the 8 seed in the playoffs but develop the young guys to be much stronger next season than scrape for the 8 with limited veterans, get annihilated in the first round, and then fall off worse next year.
    Unfortunately, Casey/Colangelo have shown no indication that they agree with this approach.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #9
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    Kyle Lowry
    Terrence Ross
    Allan Anderson
    Andrea Bargnani
    Amir Johnson

    Toughness, leadership, offense, hustle, distance shooting, penetration, size, speed ... pretty nasty group to throw at opposing 2nd units.
    Unfortunately there is only one ball and I can this group having problems sharing it.

    That leaves JV, ED, LF, DD, and JC as starters. Spacing will be tough and poor DeMar's percentages are likely to go down because he would be the 1st option in a group which would not give him space to operate.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I could see Valanciunas & Amir switching spots, especially against teams that don't have a huge starting C. I think Valanciunas' confidence could benefit by going up against opposition backups, certainly until he's gotten himself back into game shape.

    The interchangeability of our 1st and 2nd unit players speaks volumes about the fact that this team desperately needs a significant influx of legitimately talented players if it has any hopes of real long-term improvement!

    As for the poll, I voted for ACTION.

    In terms of asset management, I think Calderon (expiring contract), Anderson & Pietrus (veteran sharpshooters) should definitely be moved by the trade deadline.

    Everybody else not named Valanciunas, Ross or Davis should be on the trade block, in the name of long-term improvement.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 24th, 2013 at 11:05 AM.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Take other teams shit for prospects and picks.
    Hmm....again I'm all for this with some limitations. For instance, if Bargs is the #1 "lets get rid of him at all costs", something too shitty would be a contract that offers no real relief while also not being a useful player. Tyrus Thomas is my prime example of this kind of player. He doesn't make enough less in money or years. He wouldn't deserve any playing time over Amir, Ed or even Acy. And we wouldn't be able to move him again, in all likelihood. And he might even damage chemistry. There are definitely limits to how big a pile of crap i'd want them to take back.
    Some guys I'd be ok with: Drew Gooden, John Salmons, Channing Frye (PHX rumors anyone??? would actually give us a bench stretch 4/5, and if we could get a pick too, I'd take that deal in a second), Okafor, I'm sure GS would love to unload Jefferson or Biedrins (though I doubt they'd trade as they'd have no use for Bargs and Jack is their backup PG)...probably a bunch more too...

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Hmm....again I'm all for this with some limitations. For instance, if Bargs is the #1 "lets get rid of him at all costs", something too shitty would be a contract that offers no real relief while also not being a useful player. Tyrus Thomas is my prime example of this kind of player. He doesn't make enough less in money or years. He wouldn't deserve any playing time over Amir, Ed or even Acy. And we wouldn't be able to move him again, in all likelihood. And he might even damage chemistry. There are definitely limits to how big a pile of crap i'd want them to take back.
    Some guys I'd be ok with: Drew Gooden, John Salmons, Channing Frye (PHX rumors anyone??? would actually give us a bench stretch 4/5, and if we could get a pick too, I'd take that deal in a second), Okafor, I'm sure GS would love to unload Jefferson or Biedrins (though I doubt they'd trade as they'd have no use for Bargs and Jack is their backup PG)...probably a bunch more too...
    I wouldn't be too worried about chemistry since we still haven't established who our "core" players are. How well Calderon and Fields play together (for example) should be of little concern.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Jan 24th, 2013 at 11:25 AM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Hmm....again I'm all for this with some limitations. For instance, if Bargs is the #1 "lets get rid of him at all costs", something too shitty would be a contract that offers no real relief while also not being a useful player. Tyrus Thomas is my prime example of this kind of player. He doesn't make enough less in money or years. He wouldn't deserve any playing time over Amir, Ed or even Acy. And we wouldn't be able to move him again, in all likelihood. And he might even damage chemistry. There are definitely limits to how big a pile of crap i'd want them to take back.
    Some guys I'd be ok with: Drew Gooden, John Salmons, Channing Frye (PHX rumors anyone??? would actually give us a bench stretch 4/5, and if we could get a pick too, I'd take that deal in a second), Okafor, I'm sure GS would love to unload Jefferson or Biedrins (though I doubt they'd trade as they'd have no use for Bargs and Jack is their backup PG)...probably a bunch more too...
    FWIW, I put Bargnani nowhere near the category of Thomas. With that said, if taking on Thomas means getting a first round pick(s) and the right to swap picks with Charlotte, then yeah, I'd do it. But to just swap Bargnani for Thomas? Nooooooooo way.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    FWIW, I put Bargnani nowhere near the category of Thomas. With that said, if taking on Thomas means getting a first round pick(s) and the right to swap picks with Charlotte, then yeah, I'd do it. But to just swap Bargnani for Thomas? Nooooooooo way.
    I wouldn't take him on, even for a 1st rd pick.

    I also think they're nowhere near each other's category, but the degree of Bargs hatred/wanting to blow things up scares me sometimes. There are many many players in the league that could lead to disastrous trade scenarios, and I think Thomas is one of them.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jan 24th, 2013 at 12:50 PM.

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't be too worried about chemistry since we still haven't established who our "core" players are. How well Calderon and Fields play together (for example) should be of little concern.
    Chemistry matters a lot with young teams, regardless of the existence of a "core". You could say Sacto has 2 core players in Cousins and Evans, but the players around them, among other things, have clearly not been conducive to positive team growth, and Tyreke's game hasn't even really grown individually. So chemistry is not just limited to how much your best players like each other or whatever.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    i wouldn't take him on, even for a 1st rd pick. To even consider it I'd ask for 2 1st rd picks, and one of them be unprotected even if it's like for 2016.
    If the choices are:

    (1) Bargnani without any picks

    OR

    (2) Thomas plus a 1st rounder

    I choose (2) every time.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  17. #17
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Chemistry matters a lot with young teams, regardless of the existence of a "core". You could say Sacto has 2 core players in Cousins and Evans, but the players around them, among other things, have clearly not been conducive to positive team growth, and Tyreke's game hasn't even really grown individually. So chemistry is not just limited to how much your best players like each other or whatever.
    My point was, why worry about chemistry before the team is built?

    I would place "upgrading talent" as higher priority than maintaining the chemistry of a lottery team.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #18
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If the choices are:

    (1) Bargnani without any picks

    OR

    (2) Thomas plus a 1st rounder

    I choose (2) every time.
    Why? IF that pick turns into nothing, you're stuck with basically stuck with a contract almost as bad as Bargs, but a player who doesn't give you anything more than Amir, Ed or Acy. He would be impossible to trade again, possibly even in his expiring year, and likely to get rid of him, we'd have to trade away useful players or a pick as well. There's no guarantee the pick end up being a good player, and if he's not, you've added nothing to your team, and you don't even have the benefit of a different skill-set, which at the very least, Bargs offers, and is why teams would trade for him.

    Let me put it this way subbing out the 1st rounder for guys who have been 1st round picks.

    -Bargnani with no picks
    or
    -Thomas + some guy like Jan Vesely, Wes Johnson, Al Farouq-Aminu, Jonny Flynn...etc...the list of crappy 1st rounders is very very long.

    Frankly I think we're a better team in scenario 1, so any trade involving Bargs can't just be about getting one 1st rd pick. Also for what it's worth, people really have to pay attention to the fact that draft picks have contracts. A 1st rd pick this year that ends up being a bust + Thomas' contract could easily be higher than Bargs' over the next few seasons.

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I've written off Bargnani as having literally zero value to this team, hence the reason I'm more than willing to "gamble" on a 1st rounder even if it means taking on Thomas.

    I don't see any scenario where keeping Bargnani improves this team.

    Can't live in fear of busts.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't take him on, even for a 1st rd pick.

    I also think they're nowhere near each other's category, but the degree of Bargs hatred/wanting to blow things up scares me sometimes. There are many many players in the league that could lead to disastrous trade scenarios, and I think Thomas is one of them.
    You could always pull a Tinsley on him. If he messes up, send him home, and don't welcome him back..... hypothetically speaking of course.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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