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Thread: Raptor's mid-season grade by CnnSi...

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Default Raptor's mid-season grade by CnnSi...

    Toronto Raptors: C-
    15-27, No. 11 in the East

    The Raptors deserve two grades: one with and without Andrea Bargnani. Before their franchise forward went down with an elbow injury in December, Toronto was 4-18. Since then, the Raptors are 11-9. Even with five losses in their last six games, the quality of play and entertainment value have been up considerably. Theyíre still going nowhere, but at least itís not a total drag to watch. (In the case of Terrence Ross, it can actually be incredibly exhilarating.) The Raptors are clearly a team to watch at the trade deadline. Itís probably too ambitious to expect that they will find a sucker to take Bargnani, but they at least need to get value for Jose Calderon before he hits free agency this summer.

    Full Article here:
    http://nba.si.com/2013/01/24/midseas...?sct=uk_t12_a9

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Toronto Raptors: C-
    15-27, No. 11 in the East

    The Raptors deserve two grades: one with and without Andrea Bargnani. Before their franchise forward went down with an elbow injury in December, Toronto was 4-18. Since then, the Raptors are 11-9. Even with five losses in their last six games, the quality of play and entertainment value have been up considerably. They’re still going nowhere, but at least it’s not a total drag to watch. (In the case of Terrence Ross, it can actually be incredibly exhilarating.) The Raptors are clearly a team to watch at the trade deadline. It’s probably too ambitious to expect that they will find a sucker to take Bargnani, but they at least need to get value for Jose Calderon before he hits free agency this summer.

    Full Article here:
    http://nba.si.com/2013/01/24/midseas...?sct=uk_t12_a9
    NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo


    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo


    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    haha patience Matt. Let him return to the line-up and boost his value to something reasonable. If he can't do that, then perhaps amnesty is the best direction. At least this re-affirms my point that trading Jose is Priority #1.

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    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    haha patience Matt. Let him return to the line-up and boost his value to something reasonable. If he can't do that, then perhaps amnesty is the best direction. At least this re-affirms my point that trading Jose is Priority #1.
    I think amnestying Bargnani would be a completely idiotic idea, and i don't think there is a chance of it happenning. Why would you let another team claim him at 0-2 million, well we pay him to improve another team. Bargs still has youth and talent, he's not a amnesty candidate. I would rather take a 2nd pick and have a choice where he plays or keep him as a sixth man.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    What if we throw in a winding musical box, some shades and a monkey?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    LOL.. I don't think the negative media attention can make this situation any worse than it already is. Like someone else said, we just have to hope that when he returns, he plays half decently for long enough that another team buys in.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    LOL.. I don't think the negative media attention can make this situation any worse than it already is. Like someone else said, we just have to hope that when he returns, he plays half decently for long enough that another team buys in.
    My fear with this strategy is that "if" Bargnani plays half-decently, it somehow convinces the coaches/management that Bargnani has turned the corner, and is worth keeping.

    When it comes to Bargnani, common sense doesn't exist.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    My fear with this strategy is that "if" Bargnani plays half-decently, it somehow convinces the coaches/management that Bargnani has turned the corner, and is worth keeping.

    When it comes to Bargnani, common sense doesn't exist.
    That is scary and sadly likely, but at the end of the day, he needs to play better for us to play him or for us to trade him. Worst case scenario is that he comes back as bad as advertised and we still play him to "showcase" his talents or to "return" to his 13 game form.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    That is scary and sadly likely, but at the end of the day, he needs to play better for us to play him or for us to trade him. Worst case scenario is that he comes back as bad as advertised and we still play him to "showcase" his talents or to "return" to his 13 game form.
    Just as we Raptors fans are painfully aware that the team plays much better without AB than with him, other teams GMs are assuredly cognizant of that fact, too.

    Realistically, for another team to be interested in Bargnani with his 10 million per contract, the Raptors would have to throw in Valanciunas and/or Ross plus unprotected draft picks to take on Andrea and his guaranteed contract.
    Last edited by stretch; Fri Jan 25th, 2013 at 03:01 PM.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    haha patience Matt. Let him return to the line-up and boost his value to something reasonable. If he can't do that, then perhaps amnesty is the best direction. At least this re-affirms my point that trading Jose is Priority #1.
    Just how is trading Jose priority #1? Unless there's a promising return, and some late 2nd round pick doesn't do it, I don't understand the rush to unload him,,,,, especially seeing what Lowry's providing these days. Jose is far better for our young guys' development, as things stand now, even if it ends up being just another few months. Unless somebody comes up with a WOW offer, likely stemming from a legit contender's PG going down, I wouldn't be the least surprised that Jose re-signs for a reasonable contract with the Raps this summer.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Just how is trading Jose priority #1? Unless there's a promising return, and some late 2nd round pick doesn't do it, I don't understand the rush to unload him,,,,, especially seeing what Lowry's providing these days. Jose is far better for our young guys' development, as things stand now, even if it ends up being just another few months. Unless somebody comes up with a WOW offer, likely stemming from a legit contender's PG going down, I wouldn't be the least surprised that Jose re-signs for a reasonable contract with the Raps this summer.
    I believe the thought is, from an asset management perspective, that the Raptors likely aren't a playoff team this year so it would make sense to trade Calderon's expiring contract for any asset (even a 2nd round pick), instead of letting him either walk or re-sign without getting anything extra in return. Even if he were to be traded, he could still be (re)signed by the Raptors in the offseason to return to the team next season. From an asset management standpoint, I think the logic makes perfect sense; something is better than nothing, especially if the net cost is absolutely nothing (ie: if Calderon returns next year).

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I believe the thought is, from an asset management perspective, that the Raptors likely aren't a playoff team this year so it would make sense to trade Calderon's expiring contract for any asset (even a 2nd round pick), instead of letting him either walk or re-sign without getting anything extra in return. Even if he were to be traded, he could still be (re)signed by the Raptors in the offseason to return to the team next season. From an asset management standpoint, I think the logic makes perfect sense; something is better than nothing, especially if the net cost is absolutely nothing (ie: if Calderon returns next year).
    Most players probably would not want to come back to the team that traded them away.. it might hurt their pride. Also once the trade is made, the Raptors lose their Bird rights, so they would have to free up enough money to get under the cap to sign him or sign him for the MLE (which he may frown on).

    If the team wants Jose to come back (and I'm in the camp where I'd rather go with Lowry or someone else) then they should keep him until the summer and sign him back using his Bird Rights.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Just as we Raptors fans are painfully aware that the team plays much better without AB than with him, other teams GMs are assuredly cognizant of that fact, too...
    Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.
    Bargnani has talent, no doubt, but he is so lacking in grit or heart that his contribution when all is said and is ultimately a negative one. He has the fat contract and he goes through the motions, you know, the "sign and retire" syndrome. It has been 7 years after all.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.
    A team like the Lakers really does seem to be a good fit.

    Nash: pass-first PG who makes every player around him better offensively

    Howard: best defensive anchor C in the league, who plays down low offensively

    Kobe: his dribble-penetration sets up their offense, which relies on good outside shooters to be most effective

    MWP: other wing is a lock-down perimeter defender who typically guards the opposition's primary scorer


    Back when the Gasol rumors first started, I thought that Bargnani would be a great fit in that lineup and I still believe it. I'm just not convinced that Bargnani & Calderon would be enough of a return for Gasol, but the Lakers could be getting desperate, who knows. From a Toronto perspective, I'm just not convinced that Gasol on this young, rebuilding team (especially without Calderon) is the best idea with the long-term in mind. A multi-trade deal with young players & draft picks coming to Toronto would be absolutely ideal (many Minnesota 3-way options work salary-wise).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jan 25th, 2013 at 04:58 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Not every other team is constructed the same as the Raptors. Another team, with a strong defensive center and good, three point shooting SF could use a player like Andrea. If you are not counting on him to carry his full load on D (and let's face it, there are lots of players who don't) and don't count on him as your primary scorer, you might be happy to trade away a player who is a spare part on your team. It doesn't matter what position the Raps get back, cause it's not about shoring up their team with whoever it is, it's about getting rid of Bargs for something. the player coming back could be part of another trade for a position of need or picks or whatever.
    I have a feeling that Dwight Howard will be an Atlanta Hawk next year. I would imagine that Atlanta would love to have Howard/Smith/Bargnani. That's like the perfect complement for Andrea. A defensive minded SF with a defensive minded Center that has great help defense. Atlanta has a lot of draft picks as well that they picked up from the Joe Johnson trade.

    Maybe something like this:
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ahjlxdr

    With a draft pick going back to both Toronto and LA.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I believe the thought is, from an asset management perspective, that the Raptors likely aren't a playoff team this year so it would make sense to trade Calderon's expiring contract for any asset (even a 2nd round pick), instead of letting him either walk or re-sign without getting anything extra in return. Even if he were to be traded, he could still be (re)signed by the Raptors in the offseason to return to the team next season. From an asset management standpoint, I think the logic makes perfect sense; something is better than nothing, especially if the net cost is absolutely nothing (ie: if Calderon returns next year).
    First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but when I see "trading Jose is priority #1", with no qualifier of what the team gets back, I just don't understand. That seems to come across as a need to dump him no matter what, and I fail to see the sense in that. I disagree that getting "anything" is better than "nothing", because I don't see keeping him as nothing.

    As far as my point about getting something worthwhile back, let's use any legit contender as an example: a very late 2nd round pick in a weak draft is NOTHING in my books. In my opinion, the development of the young guys we have, especially the rookies, is far better served by Jose facilitating the offense even for a few extra months, than anything to be gained by adding some late 2nd round pick that will likely never sniff an NBA practice floor beyond training camp.

    Here's another thing I don't quite understand about the desire among many fans to unload Jose. There's a common opinion that he doesn't serve the future of the Raps because of his age. That's just silly. Jason Kidd, at nowhere near his abilities of the past, ran the point for Dallas to a championship, and he was 7-8 years older than Jose is now. The Knicks are contenders and they're running Kidd and a 35 year old rookie at the point. His age isn't the issue, as much as the talent around him is, and unless they can get a great piece back for him (unlikely), or unless Lowry can suddenly develop a TEAM game, Jose's the best we have to develop this young core of DD, JV, ED, Ross, and Amir (still only 25 and developing further).

    If lowry gets his "team" game together, or if they were to get back a promising young PG prospect back, or any promising prospect, I'm all for it, but I don't see simply unqualified unloading him as any kind of priority.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but when I see "trading Jose is priority #1", with no qualifier of what the team gets back, I just don't understand. That seems to come across as a need to dump him no matter what, and I fail to see the sense in that. I disagree that getting "anything" is better than "nothing", because I don't see keeping him as nothing.

    As far as my point about getting something worthwhile back, let's use any legit contender as an example: a very late 2nd round pick in a weak draft is NOTHING in my books. In my opinion, the development of the young guys we have, especially the rookies, is far better served by Jose facilitating the offense even for a few extra months, than anything to be gained by adding some late 2nd round pick that will likely never sniff an NBA practice floor beyond training camp.

    Here's another thing I don't quite understand about the desire among many fans to unload Jose. There's a common opinion that he doesn't serve the future of the Raps because of his age. That's just silly. Jason Kidd, at nowhere near his abilities of the past, ran the point for Dallas to a championship, and he was 7-8 years older than Jose is now. The Knicks are contenders and they're running Kidd and a 35 year old rookie at the point. His age isn't the issue, as much as the talent around him is, and unless they can get a great piece back for him (unlikely), or unless Lowry can suddenly develop a TEAM game, Jose's the best we have to develop this young core of DD, JV, ED, Ross, and Amir (still only 25 and developing further).

    If lowry gets his "team" game together, or if they were to get back a promising young PG prospect back, or any promising prospect, I'm all for it, but I don't see simply unqualified unloading him as any kind of priority.
    Fair enough. Whether he gets traded as a playoff rental or is kept, I'd personally like to see him back on the Raptors next season. Perhaps I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too, when it comes to Calderon! lol

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    +1
    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    A team like the Lakers really does seem to be a good fit.

    Nash: pass-first PG who makes every player around him better offensively

    Howard: best defensive anchor C in the league, who plays down low offensively

    Kobe: his dribble-penetration sets up their offense, which relies on good outside shooters to be most effective

    MWP: other wing is a lock-down perimeter defender who typically guards the opposition's primary scorer


    Back when the Gasol rumors first started, I thought that Bargnani would be a great fit in that lineup and I still believe it. I'm just not convinced that Bargnani & Calderon would be enough of a return for Gasol, but the Lakers could be getting desperate, who knows. From a Toronto perspective, I'm just not convinced that Gasol on this young, rebuilding team (especially without Calderon) is the best idea with the long-term in mind. A multi-trade deal with young players & draft picks coming to Toronto would be absolutely ideal (many Minnesota 3-way options work salary-wise).

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    hmmmm I don't know how to post in everything bargs but just a question, say for some wild reason bargs gets back and plays like he did for those 15 games last season, and we end up sitting in 8th spot right before the deadline. what do we THE FANS want to happen, and what would you do if you were the GM.

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