View Poll Results: Is Demar a top three mid-range based shooting guard?

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Thread: Is Demar one of the three best midranged shooting guards in the league?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Default Is Demar one of the three best midranged shooting guards in the league?

    I didn't hear Matt Devlin's Demar is the best mid-range shooting guard in the league comment, but it struck a chord when I read about it. Around the league, how many midrange shooting guards are there anumore? Kobe gets a lot of his points from there, and I guess you can say Wade but most guys are either 3 point shooters or slashers at that positing these days. Looking around, I don't see any reason why Demar isn't top three as a SG who gets most of there points from mid range shooting.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Using http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.as...3&gp2=0&mins=0

    Accounting for all SGs

    10-15 ft he ranks 56th in fg%
    16-23ft he ranks 26th in fg%

    Narrowing down the minutes (using 20+ min)

    10-15 ft he ranks 32nd
    16-23ft he ranks 19th

    Attempts from 10-15 ft he's tied for 6th
    Attempts from 16-23ft he's tied for 1st

    Quick conclusion - he's one of the 'best' SG in the league at attempting mid range shots. Not even close to being one of the best at making them though

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Was there also something about total points scored?

    I mean, that is awesome, unless you are taking ridiculous amounts of shots to get them.... oh wait.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    i think this ranking is by default since 1, there been a complete lack of true SG in the draft the past few years..2. most SG can hit a three, & its widely known that long 2s are the worst shot to take in b ball

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Not even close to being one of the best at making them though
    A couple things jump out at me from that link you posted that I feel should be included with the stats that you've used.

    Not really arguing one way or the other, the mid-range shot is a terrible shot to rely on .. but if you can make it work for you, then why not; just providing the facts.

    -he's tied for 2nd in makes per game from 16-23 feet, at 2.1 per.
    -he's 8th in makes from 10-15 per game.
    -most of the guys 'ahead' of him, percentage wise, only attempt 0.1 per game; not really valid statistical evidence.
    -League average is 38% from 16-23. Demar hits 41%.
    -League average is 42% from 10-15. Demar hits 36%.


    If you account for the all the data, I'd say that Demar could be counted among the more profficient mid-range scorers in the game.
    BUT with such a small group of guys who actually shoot the mid-range is it really much of an accomplishment to be counted among them?

    Regardless, I'm a huge fan of Demars game.
    Last edited by Joey; Fri Jan 25th, 2013 at 12:03 PM.
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  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I don't think a mid-range shot is a terrible shot at all.

    It's the long 2s that I have a problem with...
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  7. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    A couple things jump out at me from that link you posted that I feel should be included with the stats that you've used.

    Not really arguing one way or the other, the mid-range shot is a terrible shot to rely on .. but if you can make it work for you, then why not; just providing the facts.

    -he's tied for 2nd in makes per game from 16-23 feet, at 2.1 per.
    -he's 8th in makes from 10-15 per game.
    -most of the guys 'ahead' of him, percentage wise, only attempt 0.1 per game; not really valid statistical evidence.
    -League average is 38% from 16-23. Demar hits 41%.
    -League average is 42% from 10-15. Demar hits 36%.


    If you account for the all the data, I'd say that Demar could be counted among the more profficient mid-range scorers in the game.
    BUT with such a small group of guys who actually shoot the mid-range is it really much of an accomplishment to be counted among them?

    Regardless, I'm a huge fan of Demars game.
    Makes has to be related to attempts. One could easily lead the league in made shots from anywhere, regardless of %, if they took enough of them. About the only shot where 'makes' in and of itself my be important is FTs, and thats thats do to the impact of drawing fouls.

    most of the guys 'ahead' of him, percentage wise, only attempt 0.1 per game; not really valid statistical evidence.
    I agree those with low attempts could be eliminated, but very few attempt 0.1 or less of any of those shots a game in the 20+min category. In fact only 3 do (4 with 0.3 attempts or less)* - thats not even close to 'most'.


    At best one could argue Demar is a better than average at taking one of the worst shots in the game. We are really stretching to find much value in that.

    *correction. 3 players shoot 0.1 or less attempts, 5 shoot 0.3 or less and 7 shoot 0.4 or less.

    eliminating those he is still ranked 25th on 10-15 footers and 19th on 16-23 footers for those with 20+ min a game
    Last edited by Craiger; Fri Jan 25th, 2013 at 01:31 PM.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't think a mid-range shot is a terrible shot at all.

    It's the long 2s that I have a problem with...
    anything within 2 feet of the three point line infuriates me.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I can't help but feel that the bigger question is, "should DeRozan's game be so dependent on the mid-range game?"

    I'm even more concerned with all the long 2pt attempts, in addition to the poor 3pt shooting. For a wing so widely regarded for his athetlicism and hops, I would prefer his mid & long range shot attempts/makes to be nowhere near the top of the wing rankings, to be honest.

    A good wing combo should have one consistent penetrator (who can finish consistently AND draw fouls) and one above average 3pt shooter. Unfortuantely, I don't see DeRozan being either of these right now.

  10. #10
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I can't help but feel that the bigger question is, "should DeRozan's game be so dependent on the mid-range game?"

    I'm even more concerned with all the long 2pt attempts, in addition to the poor 3pt shooting. For a wing so widely regarded for his athetlicism and hops, I would prefer his mid & long range shot attempts/makes to be nowhere near the top of the wing rankings, to be honest.

    A good wing combo should have one consistent penetrator (who can finish consistently AND draw fouls) and one above average 3pt shooter. Unfortuantely, I don't see DeRozan being either of these right now.
    +1

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    I think people need to keep in mind, while having this discussion, that Demar is currently ranked 12th in the Entire League in Free Throws Made and 16th in Attempts.

    So I think any talk about how mid-range is all he does, and he's not a slasher, or not good at drawing fouls, is, well, inaccurate in my opinion.
    Last edited by Joey; Fri Jan 25th, 2013 at 02:58 PM.
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  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Starter knickz's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't think a mid-range shot is a terrible shot at all.

    It's the long 2s that I have a problem with...
    dwayne wade won a scoring tittle taking mid-range j's. derozan could easily score more than 20ppg if he got calls.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote knickz wrote: View Post
    dwayne wade won a scoring tittle taking mid-range j's. derozan could easily score more than 20ppg if he got calls.
    wade in his younger days was always moving.. running of screens for wide open mid range shots..Rip Hamilton used to do the same & was very effective at it..demar doesnt move around as much.. usually hes just parked on the corner 3pt line or around it..if demar was to use screens more & got open looks then id have no issue with his mid range game..but as long as hes jacking up contested mid range shots in not ok with it..

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Wade is also a better ball-handler enabling him to get into the lane at will.
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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Wade is also a better ball-handler enabling him to get into the lane at will.
    That's just it - guys who earn respect by consistently finishing in the lane create opportunities for open mid-range looks. DeRozan's problem has been that the defense can play him tight, forcing him to take the long contested 2pt shots, since he's never proven an ability to dribble-drive through traffic consistently, let alone finish consistently.

    If DeRozan were to start taking it strong everytime and try to "dunk it on their head", as Jack alluded to, he'd drastically increase his finishing at the rim and trips to the foul line, all while forcing D to sag off him which would result in more open looks.

  16. #16
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Wade is also a better ball-handler enabling him to get into the lane at will.
    That's the point

    Why are we comparing Derozan to Wade right now?

    Look, Devlin's comment was idiotic for a number of reasons:

    1. It was a skewed stat to make put him in the same breath as other top players in the league
    2. he thinks fans are dumb enough to place any relevance on this ranking
    3. It was DD's first decent game in a while and it was blowing his game out of proportion
    4. He went out of his way to say that "we know that metrics weigh the 3 pt line, FT line and layups, but if you want a guy that can score in mid-range, he is one of the best"...there's a reason why metrics put emphasis on these types of points
    5. He's not ranked this High on the mid range list because every guard in the league is competing to be the most effective mid range player, he is ranked that high because top players are trying NOT TO. They are being told to take 3's instead of long 2's, or to drive to the basket.

    Overall, the most irritating thing about it is that he (like the rest of the raps broadcast crew) likes to try to make us believe that Derozan is even in the same realm as a guy like Wade, and then we sit here like suckers actually debating it!

    If you look at the numbers (ANY numbers), it is fairly clear. Derozan is not the worst shooting guard in the league but hes also not even close to the best.

    He is like JJ Reddick, Vince Carter (today, not old VC) a little bit better than T-Ross and about the same as Alan Anderson

    Will he get better? probably, but we have no reason to think that he will ever be anything more than a 3rd option on a playoff team (at his absolute peak)

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If DeRozan were to start taking it strong everytime and try to "dunk it on their head", as Jack alluded to, he'd drastically increase his finishing at the rim and trips to the foul line, all while forcing D to sag off him which would result in more open looks.
    As I pointed out above, he's 12th in the League in the FTM and 16th in FTA.
    While I'd certainly appreciate more, I'm not worried about his ability to get to the line.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  18. #18
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    As I pointed out above, he's 12th in the League in the FTM and 16th in FTA.
    While I'd certainly appreciate more, I'm not worried about his ability to get to the line.
    Fair enough, I just wish he was going there to finish a lot more "and 1's", instead of to shoot a pair of FT. Just think how high ranked he'd be if he was more consistent and aggressively drove into players to finish, instead of fading away so often!

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Fair enough, I just wish he was going there to finish a lot more "and 1's", instead of to shoot a pair of FT. Just think how high ranked he'd be if he was more consistent and aggressively drove into players to finish, instead of fading away so often!
    once players know demars comming in hard everytime youll start to see defences avoid contact more aswell..as it stands now nobodys worried about getting run over & crowned by demar & in turn they contest every drive that much harder.. he bails defences out alot by shying away from contact

  20. #20
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    Since when was not being able to shoot more than 20 feet cool?

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