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  • #76
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I said this somewhere else but my take on that is Colangelo is all about Lowry and Casey wants to roll with Calderon.
    well we should listen to the half that's actually gonna be here next year.

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    • #77
      TRex wrote: View Post
      Great player? what has he accomplish? he was a backup in Memphis. Lost the starting job to Dragic in Houston last year. Lost the starting job to Calderon this year.

      See the trend? maybe he's not a starting PG in this league.

      The Dragic thing wasnt really a talent thing, he had an issue with Mchale and he got injured when he was starting and leadin the team they were well underway to the playoffs. Memphis drafted him buttraded him to Houston never really played much. Calderon is given the start because of chemistry and the higher ups I believe are shopping him.

      He is a starting PG in the league just gets shafted a lot.

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      • #78
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        He started the majority of games leading Houston to 2 seasons of plus .500 ball in the West. It isn't much but certainly much more success than Toronto has had the last 5 seasons.
        Toronto broke him. thank good ole BC for that

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        • #79
          We trade Lowry, Ed D, Val(to a lesser degree ross) for anything less then a amazing product I honestly consider looking at other teams to follow.

          Sorry- I honestly think Jose has outplayed Lowry and would love to keep both(if we can sign Jose for 4-5 mil for 3 years...) but Lowry is a young PG, who can take over games, and play great D...he just needs to show it.

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          • #80
            Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
            Seriously there isnt anything to lose START LOWRY he came here to be the new pont guard its like the Raps just spit in his face Great player highly underutilized.
            Lets not go overboard with Lowry here. He's a good player but he's not in the 'great' category.

            The reality is Lowry needs to find a way to deal with it. If people want to argue Lowry should start, or Lowry should see more minutes etc. thats fine, I get that. But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.

            This team doesn't need to baby sit grown men anymore.

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            • #81
              Craiger wrote: View Post
              Lets not go overboard with Lowry here. He's a good player but he's not in the 'great' category.

              The reality is Lowry needs to find a way to deal with it. If people want to argue Lowry should start, or Lowry should see more minutes etc. thats fine, I get that. But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.

              This team doesn't need to baby sit grown men anymore.
              You know I agree with the bit on some effect on his ego or confidence but let us not forget St. Jose was absolutely dreadful starting the year from the bench.

              I am still a little surprised by Wolstat's 'educated guess' comment yesterday about BOTH Lowry and Calderon possibly being traded. I am starting to think that is 100% the way to go.

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              • #82
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Something is not right with him. We can all speculate but really only he, the coaching staff, and teammates know. I feel like the Raptors have broken him. The swagger and confidence this team desperately lacked and he had in abundance is gone. F*ck.
                He's been neutered somehow. I don't get it. Here's my only 2 explanations:

                1. Has he been promised by management that he's on the bench until Feb. 21st where they move Calderon for something. He was told to just learn the system and hang in tight. Once the deadline passes, he gets everything back...

                2. OR, the team has responded by saying we like Jose and the system. That's he's not a team player and is being kept around to maintain his value for a trade. IMHO, it's one of these two.
                “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                • #83
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  You know I agree with the bit on some effect on his ego or confidence but let us not forget St. Jose was absolutely dreadful starting the year from the bench.

                  I am still a little surprised by Wolstat's 'educated guess' comment yesterday about BOTH Lowry and Calderon possibly being traded. I am starting to think that is 100% the way to go.
                  While I don't agree Jose was dreadful coming off the bench (although he wasn't as good as he has been since starting), even if he was what does that have to do with Lowry or Lowry's current situation? Knocking Jose down a peg doesn't make Lowry or the questions around him any better.

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                  • #84
                    Craiger wrote: View Post
                    While I don't agree Jose was dreadful coming off the bench (although he wasn't as good as he has been since starting), even if he was what does that have to do with Lowry or Lowry's current situation? Knocking Jose down a peg doesn't make Lowry or the questions around him any better.
                    The same medicine prescribed for Lowry should have been prescribed for Jose or in your words:

                    But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.


                    All this fawning over Jose about professionalism and how great of a guy he is but he wasn't getting it done off the bench. Like it or not, most players who have traditionally been starters do suffer from coming off the bench. It clearly has happened to Lowry (but he was also asked to change his game) and it happened with Jose.

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                    • #85
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      The same medicine prescribed for Lowry should have been prescribed for Jose or in your words:

                      But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.


                      All this fawning over Jose about professionalism and how great of a guy he is but he wasn't getting it done off the bench. Like it or not, most players who have traditionally been starters do suffer from coming off the bench. It clearly has happened to Lowry (but he was also asked to change his game) and it happened with Jose.
                      I'm confused here. Are you trying to indicate that Jose was just handed the role of starter or got special treatment from this team?

                      And I still don't even know what Jose has to do with any of this. You think Jose played poorly or terrible or whatever off the bench. Ok thats fine. But therefore what? Lowry should start? Therefore the organization should treat Lowry with a special privilege? Therefore Lowry has an excuse for allowing his new role to potentially effecting his mentality?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Craiger wrote: View Post
                        I'm confused here. Are you trying to indicate that Jose was just handed the role of starter or got special treatment from this team?

                        And I still don't even know what Jose has to do with any of this. You think Jose played poorly or terrible or whatever off the bench. Ok thats fine. But therefore what? Lowry should start? Therefore the organization should treat Lowry with a special privilege? Therefore Lowry has an excuse for allowing his new role to potentially effecting his mentality?
                        What is the confusion?

                        There is a double standard when it comes to Jose. The Raptors suck. They have sucked for years with Jose leading the charge. Jose is still leading the charge and they still suck. Jose commended for professionalism but he clearly did not play with the same heart, desire, poise, or energy off the bench as he has starting.

                        So in essence your solution for Lowry to suck it up and get over is a crock of shit and ignores the reality of the importance of starting in the NBA - especially as guys are playing in or near contract years. Lowry is a much better player and is benched behind a less talented one. He has been vilified by a very large portion of the fan base and media while the guy starting has been the leader of a bottom feeder for years. Oh yeah, Kyle, suck it up buddy because Toronto (players, coaches, management) really knows what the f*ck they are doing in creating a winning franchise.

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                        • #87
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          What is the confusion?

                          There is a double standard when it comes to Jose. The Raptors suck. They have sucked for years with Jose leading the charge. Jose is still leading the charge and they still suck. Jose commended for professionalism but he clearly did not play with the same heart, desire, poise, or energy off the bench as he has starting.

                          So in essence your solution for Lowry to suck it up and get over is a crock of shit and ignores the reality of the importance of starting in the NBA - especially as guys are playing in or near contract years. Lowry is a much better player and is benched behind a less talented one. He has been vilified by a very large portion of the fan base and media while the guy starting has been the leader of a bottom feeder for years. Oh yeah, Kyle, suck it up buddy because Toronto (players, coaches, management) really knows what the f*ck they are doing in creating a winning franchise.
                          Yeah I can't help but see the exact opposite happening here - a double standard when it comes to Jose? I agree, but its been anything but a double standard in Jose's favour.

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                          • #88
                            Lowry hasn't been 'broken' by Toronto. Come on. This is a guy who publicly fought with Kevin McHale; he's hardly likely to be 'broken' by the likes of Casey and Colangelo, or initimidated into playing a different style by the threat of Calderon. He's playing the same style that gave him some success in Houston, and the same style that led to him sitting the bench in favour of Dragic.

                            I was more than willing to see how this trade turned out -- I also thought that if Lowry played the way he did in Houston, it might work out well here. But for whatever reason, it hasn't.

                            He's not playing well, and he's not playing like the best player on the team by any stretch. Whether this is an indication of what can be expected from him if he's kept, I don't know. But right now, Calderon is the better PG for this team at this point in time.

                            I have no objection to either option - trade him or not - because he's probably the best trade chip they have, and likely to bring more back alone or in combo with other players. The lost pick is water under the bridge at this point; his low salary and the fact that teams are becoming more enamoured with Westbrook-type PGs makes him valuable on the market.

                            If he stays, he'll have a few more months to show whether he can fit this team, this system. It'll be pretty obvious.

                            I guess the bottom line for me is, he's not looking like a player you "build a team around", so get the most value out of him that you can, whether that means using him as your starting PG at a cheap salary for 2 years or trading him.
                            Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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                            • #89
                              BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
                              The other factor, that weighs on me.

                              Jose is supposedly a really really nice guy. Doing his utmost to make rookies and new players feel better and wanted. That is what leadership is about.

                              I never got that from Lowry. Remember seeing an interaction between Fields and Kyle early on in training camp, and Lowry came off (to me) as pretentious dick that did not seem to realize he was dealing with a new teammate, who too was trying to carve out a home. Now hearing this, I kind of am connecting the dots, and thinking that maybe Kyle is still very immature. Maybe he will grow up, maybe he wont. AI never did.

                              I often wonder, how much longer AI could of played if someone taught him how to make his teammates better. He was one of the most dominant players in the league, but once his skills faded, it was like the switch went to the OFF position. Not a single team would touch him as a PG. He just never learned how to be one, yet here was this player with experience and ability that was unrivaled. He just never learnt to play the game right, and as a result his career did not last as long as many less dominant point guards like, Kidd, Stockton, Nash.

                              I don't think Kyle's style is good basketball. I think his talent bails him out more often then not. I don't think taking 3pt'ers 5 feet from the 3pt line is wise. Who cares if they go in, just not very smart and not something the best point guards in history have ever done. It's great when they go in, but horribly deflating for your teammates when you have not set up yet and the ball is already coming back down the court. It's a self serving attempt any way you look at it.
                              I think you are getting much closer to the truth.

                              Colangelo doesn't see everything that happen with the team and Casey does. That's probably why they cant agree on him and Casey prefers that mature, Jose. In Orlando I saw Lowry yell at Derozan for not coming high enough on a cut, Demar still scored but Kyle was pissed. DD replied " ya, my bad".

                              I think its like having a co-worker that is cool outside of work but while your on shift together the guy is a douche.
                              Last edited by pesterm1; Sun Jan 27, 2013, 02:14 PM.

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                              • #90
                                enlightenment wrote: View Post
                                I wouldnt give up on Lowry near yet.

                                I think he is capable of being a strong leader, with lots of energy and hustle! I think he can wake up Demar when needs be. I think he is very good at drawing charges, very good at stripping steals, very good at rebounding. I think his penetration is good as well, though we have seen him go away from that. His 3pt shot is solid, he has good court vision, and he excels in the fast break. Recently we simply haven't seen the energy or the decisiveness and penetration we would hope.

                                My belief is that Lowry has been given a new 'role' from Casey. I think Lowry is relearning his position in order to better jell with the team. I think that he is younger than Bargnani, and I think that Lowry is going to round out as a very good player very soon. I fully believe that Lowry is our answer at PG for this core.
                                See that's the thing... I don't think Lowry is a "good" leader. He could be a leader but he doesn't know how to communicate in a positive way with the other players the same way Jose does. I just think Lowry is the guy yells about how you did something wrong. Jose is the guy to tell you what you did wrong and how to do it right.

                                (lowry) vs (Jose)
                                criticism vs. constructive criticism

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