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Thread: Lowry on the Block?

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Lets not go overboard with Lowry here. He's a good player but he's not in the 'great' category.

    The reality is Lowry needs to find a way to deal with it. If people want to argue Lowry should start, or Lowry should see more minutes etc. thats fine, I get that. But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.

    This team doesn't need to baby sit grown men anymore.
    You know I agree with the bit on some effect on his ego or confidence but let us not forget St. Jose was absolutely dreadful starting the year from the bench.

    I am still a little surprised by Wolstat's 'educated guess' comment yesterday about BOTH Lowry and Calderon possibly being traded. I am starting to think that is 100% the way to go.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Something is not right with him. We can all speculate but really only he, the coaching staff, and teammates know. I feel like the Raptors have broken him. The swagger and confidence this team desperately lacked and he had in abundance is gone. F*ck.
    He's been neutered somehow. I don't get it. Here's my only 2 explanations:

    1. Has he been promised by management that he's on the bench until Feb. 21st where they move Calderon for something. He was told to just learn the system and hang in tight. Once the deadline passes, he gets everything back...

    2. OR, the team has responded by saying we like Jose and the system. That's he's not a team player and is being kept around to maintain his value for a trade. IMHO, it's one of these two.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  3. #83
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You know I agree with the bit on some effect on his ego or confidence but let us not forget St. Jose was absolutely dreadful starting the year from the bench.

    I am still a little surprised by Wolstat's 'educated guess' comment yesterday about BOTH Lowry and Calderon possibly being traded. I am starting to think that is 100% the way to go.
    While I don't agree Jose was dreadful coming off the bench (although he wasn't as good as he has been since starting), even if he was what does that have to do with Lowry or Lowry's current situation? Knocking Jose down a peg doesn't make Lowry or the questions around him any better.

  4. #84
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    While I don't agree Jose was dreadful coming off the bench (although he wasn't as good as he has been since starting), even if he was what does that have to do with Lowry or Lowry's current situation? Knocking Jose down a peg doesn't make Lowry or the questions around him any better.
    The same medicine prescribed for Lowry should have been prescribed for Jose or in your words:

    But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.


    All this fawning over Jose about professionalism and how great of a guy he is but he wasn't getting it done off the bench. Like it or not, most players who have traditionally been starters do suffer from coming off the bench. It clearly has happened to Lowry (but he was also asked to change his game) and it happened with Jose.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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  5. #85
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The same medicine prescribed for Lowry should have been prescribed for Jose or in your words:

    But if coming off the bench is having some effect on his ego or confidence or is in some way bothering him and effecting his performance, this team doesn't need to stroke his ego and make him feel better. He needs to find some way to suck it up and get over it.


    All this fawning over Jose about professionalism and how great of a guy he is but he wasn't getting it done off the bench. Like it or not, most players who have traditionally been starters do suffer from coming off the bench. It clearly has happened to Lowry (but he was also asked to change his game) and it happened with Jose.
    I'm confused here. Are you trying to indicate that Jose was just handed the role of starter or got special treatment from this team?

    And I still don't even know what Jose has to do with any of this. You think Jose played poorly or terrible or whatever off the bench. Ok thats fine. But therefore what? Lowry should start? Therefore the organization should treat Lowry with a special privilege? Therefore Lowry has an excuse for allowing his new role to potentially effecting his mentality?

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm confused here. Are you trying to indicate that Jose was just handed the role of starter or got special treatment from this team?

    And I still don't even know what Jose has to do with any of this. You think Jose played poorly or terrible or whatever off the bench. Ok thats fine. But therefore what? Lowry should start? Therefore the organization should treat Lowry with a special privilege? Therefore Lowry has an excuse for allowing his new role to potentially effecting his mentality?
    What is the confusion?

    There is a double standard when it comes to Jose. The Raptors suck. They have sucked for years with Jose leading the charge. Jose is still leading the charge and they still suck. Jose commended for professionalism but he clearly did not play with the same heart, desire, poise, or energy off the bench as he has starting.

    So in essence your solution for Lowry to suck it up and get over is a crock of shit and ignores the reality of the importance of starting in the NBA - especially as guys are playing in or near contract years. Lowry is a much better player and is benched behind a less talented one. He has been vilified by a very large portion of the fan base and media while the guy starting has been the leader of a bottom feeder for years. Oh yeah, Kyle, suck it up buddy because Toronto (players, coaches, management) really knows what the f*ck they are doing in creating a winning franchise.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #87
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What is the confusion?

    There is a double standard when it comes to Jose. The Raptors suck. They have sucked for years with Jose leading the charge. Jose is still leading the charge and they still suck. Jose commended for professionalism but he clearly did not play with the same heart, desire, poise, or energy off the bench as he has starting.

    So in essence your solution for Lowry to suck it up and get over is a crock of shit and ignores the reality of the importance of starting in the NBA - especially as guys are playing in or near contract years. Lowry is a much better player and is benched behind a less talented one. He has been vilified by a very large portion of the fan base and media while the guy starting has been the leader of a bottom feeder for years. Oh yeah, Kyle, suck it up buddy because Toronto (players, coaches, management) really knows what the f*ck they are doing in creating a winning franchise.
    Yeah I can't help but see the exact opposite happening here - a double standard when it comes to Jose? I agree, but its been anything but a double standard in Jose's favour.

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Lowry hasn't been 'broken' by Toronto. Come on. This is a guy who publicly fought with Kevin McHale; he's hardly likely to be 'broken' by the likes of Casey and Colangelo, or initimidated into playing a different style by the threat of Calderon. He's playing the same style that gave him some success in Houston, and the same style that led to him sitting the bench in favour of Dragic.

    I was more than willing to see how this trade turned out -- I also thought that if Lowry played the way he did in Houston, it might work out well here. But for whatever reason, it hasn't.

    He's not playing well, and he's not playing like the best player on the team by any stretch. Whether this is an indication of what can be expected from him if he's kept, I don't know. But right now, Calderon is the better PG for this team at this point in time.

    I have no objection to either option - trade him or not - because he's probably the best trade chip they have, and likely to bring more back alone or in combo with other players. The lost pick is water under the bridge at this point; his low salary and the fact that teams are becoming more enamoured with Westbrook-type PGs makes him valuable on the market.

    If he stays, he'll have a few more months to show whether he can fit this team, this system. It'll be pretty obvious.

    I guess the bottom line for me is, he's not looking like a player you "build a team around", so get the most value out of him that you can, whether that means using him as your starting PG at a cheap salary for 2 years or trading him.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  9. #89
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote BasketballCrush wrote: View Post
    The other factor, that weighs on me.

    Jose is supposedly a really really nice guy. Doing his utmost to make rookies and new players feel better and wanted. That is what leadership is about.

    I never got that from Lowry. Remember seeing an interaction between Fields and Kyle early on in training camp, and Lowry came off (to me) as pretentious dick that did not seem to realize he was dealing with a new teammate, who too was trying to carve out a home. Now hearing this, I kind of am connecting the dots, and thinking that maybe Kyle is still very immature. Maybe he will grow up, maybe he wont. AI never did.

    I often wonder, how much longer AI could of played if someone taught him how to make his teammates better. He was one of the most dominant players in the league, but once his skills faded, it was like the switch went to the OFF position. Not a single team would touch him as a PG. He just never learned how to be one, yet here was this player with experience and ability that was unrivaled. He just never learnt to play the game right, and as a result his career did not last as long as many less dominant point guards like, Kidd, Stockton, Nash.

    I don't think Kyle's style is good basketball. I think his talent bails him out more often then not. I don't think taking 3pt'ers 5 feet from the 3pt line is wise. Who cares if they go in, just not very smart and not something the best point guards in history have ever done. It's great when they go in, but horribly deflating for your teammates when you have not set up yet and the ball is already coming back down the court. It's a self serving attempt any way you look at it.
    I think you are getting much closer to the truth.

    Colangelo doesn't see everything that happen with the team and Casey does. That's probably why they cant agree on him and Casey prefers that mature, Jose. In Orlando I saw Lowry yell at Derozan for not coming high enough on a cut, Demar still scored but Kyle was pissed. DD replied " ya, my bad".

    I think its like having a co-worker that is cool outside of work but while your on shift together the guy is a douche.
    Last edited by pesterm1; Sun Jan 27th, 2013 at 01:14 PM.

  10. #90
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I wouldnt give up on Lowry near yet.

    I think he is capable of being a strong leader, with lots of energy and hustle! I think he can wake up Demar when needs be. I think he is very good at drawing charges, very good at stripping steals, very good at rebounding. I think his penetration is good as well, though we have seen him go away from that. His 3pt shot is solid, he has good court vision, and he excels in the fast break. Recently we simply haven't seen the energy or the decisiveness and penetration we would hope.

    My belief is that Lowry has been given a new 'role' from Casey. I think Lowry is relearning his position in order to better jell with the team. I think that he is younger than Bargnani, and I think that Lowry is going to round out as a very good player very soon. I fully believe that Lowry is our answer at PG for this core.
    See that's the thing... I don't think Lowry is a "good" leader. He could be a leader but he doesn't know how to communicate in a positive way with the other players the same way Jose does. I just think Lowry is the guy yells about how you did something wrong. Jose is the guy to tell you what you did wrong and how to do it right.

    (lowry) vs (Jose)
    criticism vs. constructive criticism

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    See that's the thing... I don't think Lowry is a "good" leader. He could be a leader but he doesn't know how to communicate in a positive way with the other players the same way Jose does. I just think Lowry is the guy yells about how you did something wrong. Jose is the guy to tell you what you did wrong and how to do it right.

    (lowry) vs (Jose)
    criticism vs. constructive criticism
    You have to remember, Jose has been the starting pg for this team for years. Lowry is the newcomer. I see leadership qualities in both of them, but comparing them based on this season is just inaccurate.

    Lowry is talking to guys all the time, just like Jose., I don't know what you're basing that criticism assumption on

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Good discussion. All that I know is that Lowry was sulking like a little bitch on the end of the bench last night when Jose hit the layup for us to go ahead by 2. Didnt even join the huddle when there was a very realistic chance he was going back in the game if it went to OT.
    This is in sharp contrast to just a few games ago, when he was one of our biggest cheerleaders on the bench. I dont know exactly what happened, but its clearly something.
    I dont see this lasting long - I would bet one of Jose or Lowry will be gone within the next couple of weeks ... and if I had to guess, it will be Lowry. And, for people saying "you better get as much as we gave up for him" .. you are dreaming in technicolour ... we wont get anywhere near a high first round pick for him. Another BC disaster ...

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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    You have to remember, Jose has been the starting pg for this team for years. Lowry is the newcomer. I see leadership qualities in both of them, but comparing them based on this season is just inaccurate.

    Lowry is talking to guys all the time, just like Jose., I don't know what you're basing that criticism assumption on
    I like lowry too, I thought it would be a great move for us. So far it hasnt panned out. Lowry has terrible body language though. Did you know that 53 percent of how we communicate is body language alone. 38 percent is the tone of our words and 7 percent is the actual words. Im not saying lowry CANT lead us but he certainly cant be the leader we NEED. It would be like Westbrook being the Leader on OKC without durant. Westbrook has all the skill and passion but not the quality you want from your "leader". IMO Lowry would make a perfect Robin but he needs a Batman.

    Put lowry on the Rockets again with Harden and I think he would be a perfect fit. Hope that makes sense.

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    It's probably been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again. Lowry has been excellent coming off the bench in the last 15 games coming back from injury, numbers wise anyway. According to Basketball Reference, in 23.7 minutes per game, he's averaging 11.1 points, 5.8 assists and 3.2 boards; he's shooting .435 percent from the field and .448 percent from three. He's averaging 9 assists per 36 minutes. He's been playing well. I'm not quite sure why Toronto would give up on him. Boston needs a point guard though???

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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Good discussion. All that I know is that Lowry was sulking like a little bitch on the end of the bench last night when Jose hit the layup for us to go ahead by 2. Didnt even join the huddle when there was a very realistic chance he was going back in the game if it went to OT.
    This is in sharp contrast to just a few games ago, when he was one of our biggest cheerleaders on the bench. I dont know exactly what happened, but its clearly something.
    I dont see this lasting long - I would bet one of Jose or Lowry will be gone within the next couple of weeks ... and if I had to guess, it will be Lowry. And, for people saying "you better get as much as we gave up for him" .. you are dreaming in technicolour ... we wont get anywhere near a high first round pick for him. Another BC disaster ...
    Exactly what Im referring to... Lowry keeps saying the right things but his body language off camera and towards other players is saying far more than his words. Remember 93 percent of the way we communicate is body language and only 7 percent is the actual words. If your sulking on the bench... your not a leader. or not a very good one, imo.

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    Quote Michel G wrote: View Post
    It's probably been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again. Lowry has been excellent coming off the bench in the last 15 games coming back from injury, numbers wise anyway. According to Basketball Reference, in 23.7 minutes per game, he's averaging 11.1 points, 5.8 assists and 3.2 boards; he's shooting .435 percent from the field and .448 percent from three. He's averaging 9 assists per 36 minutes. He's been playing well. I'm not quite sure why Toronto would give up on him. Boston needs a point guard though???
    unrelated matter but ... lowry + bargnani for rondo and green works. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine

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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    Exactly what Im referring to... Lowry keeps saying the right things but his body language off camera and towards other players is saying far more than his words. Remember 93 percent of the way we communicate is body language and only 7 percent is the actual words. If your sulking on the bench... your not a leader. or not a very good one, imo.
    Wasn't he hurt last night? His back or something?

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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    unrelated matter but ... lowry + bargnani for rondo and green works. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
    Rondo's hurt now, so unfortunately that trade wouldn't go through.

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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    unrelated matter but ... lowry + bargnani for rondo and green works. http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
    with rondo out for the year with his torn ACL, hes actually a very interesting trade partner. You should be able to get a pretty good deal for him .. and sort of tank at the same time because he wont be back until the middle of next year. With Boston being so old, they almost have to do something now. Very intriguing ..

  20. #100
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    with rondo out for the year with his torn ACL, hes actually a very interesting trade partner. You should be able to get a pretty good deal for him .. and sort of tank at the same time because he wont be back until the middle of next year. With Boston being so old, they almost have to do something now. Very intriguing ..
    I highly doubt its a full ACL tear. They said he was walking at shoot around. more likely a partial tear so he would be back for next year. but Boston is in win now and needs a pg.

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