View Poll Results: Are the Raptors still in a rebuild?

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  • Yes

    10 66.67%
  • No - and if not, what is it?

    5 33.33%
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Thread: If this isn't a rebuild, what is it?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default If this isn't a rebuild, what is it?

    RaptorsMR ‏@RaptorsMR

    @tradeBargnani Not sure many fans would want another rebuild. Irving is the key but Cavs do only have 13 wins.
    This tweet from @RaptorsMR last night got me thinking about a lot of things:

    1) Moving out of a rebuild is not done by simply saying, "OK, we are finishing our rebuild now" or "We are going to accelerate the process." Unfortunately, that is exactly what Colangelo and Co. have done leading in to this season. If that is in fact the case though, well, the Raptors are now just a shitty team.

    2) Like it or not the Raptors are still very much in a rebuild. The problem is the Raptors don't have very many assets to help the process outside of development and maturation of current players - they have no first round draft pick this season and they have limited to no financial flexibility without a major trade between now and trade deadline or amnestying Bargnani.

    3) What would acknowledgement of a rebuild actually look like? Calderon starting - been going on for years. DeRozan carrying the scoring load - been going on for years. Patch work at small forward - been going on for years. Frustration with Bargnani - been going on for years. Amir, a stiff, or a rookie starting at C - been going on for years. A point guard controversy/debate - been going on for years. All those things have been going on for years and are continuing so how can one assume the rebuild is complete?

    4) Despite the Raptors insistence they are not doing a rebuild, lets consider the veteran situation on this team:
    • Bargnani has missed half the last 2 seasons and is hardly a contributor to winning or success,
    • Kleiza has missed the better part of 3 years due to a terrible injury and has no future with this team,
    • Amir is what he is: a solid reserve big man who can start when needed but lack of focus leads to inconsistencies,
    • Aaron Gray barely plays and is deep depth off the bench,
    • John Lucas is the Aaron Gray of PGs,
    • Pietrus is a shell of his former self and no longer plays,
    • Anderson is a 30 year old journeyman who is a solid 5th wing off the bench but the Raptors use as a clutch time performer which is great if you want to live and die by the D-Leaguer,
    • Calderon is an UFA with no guarantee to stay and continues to start leading the team nowhere,
    • Lowry is a shell of his former self and despite his immense talent he looks to be an utter failure in Toronto,
    • DeRozan is the youngest veteran and an NBA starter - nothing more, nothing less - getting paid star money starting next season. Like many NBA players he has incredible games followed by bad games. The difference between a star and starter is consistency.


    Now ask yourself, which of those veterans are going to blaze a trail to the playoffs? Which of those veterans are capable of making an all-star game? Which of those veterans are anything more than role players - admittedly some very good role players but role players nonetheless? Which of those players are absolute keepers moving forward?

    I don't know about you but the answer I keep getting is "none" outside of Lowry who could be an all-star in my opinion but has shown even he isn't an absolute keeper.

    This of course leaves ED, TR, JV, QA, DD, and LF as players under 25 with 4 years or less NBA experience plus add in Amir and you have a nice nucleus that is not going to win you many games but are all solid pieces should REAL talent find its way in to the locker room.

    5) Of the 10 veterans listed in 4), only 5 actually play at this time.... yet the team is not rebuilding.... hmmm.

    6) The roster continues to have about 40% turnover each season..... yet no rebuild..... hmmmmm.

    6) So wrapping up, the best thing Toronto can do is accept the reality they are still very much in a rebuild. The Raptors aren't good and a lack of talent continues to be the problem in getting the team out of a state of rebuilding and into a state of competing.

    I agree with @RaptorsMR that fans don't want another rebuild but it is not about having another rebuild now - the Raptors have never left rebuilding in the the first place and it is already a given. Fans don't want another forced rebuild in 2-3 seasons - that is the issue.

    Now is the time to fully embrace rebuilding because the team is certainly not competing with the teams over .500. This team was built around Bargnani and the idea Andrea was a star - and that plan was a failure. The Raptors already have a head start in continuing to rebuild because Ross and JV have shown they are legit NBA talent which is more than most draft picks. The only thing Steffi and Bryan seem to do well is draft - so why not build to your strength?

    Do anything and everything possible to accumulate 2013 and 2014 draft picks and discarded young players (Derrick Williams, Alec Burks, etc.) who still have potential. In exchange, take on the worst of the worst contracts or if need be part with a talented player such as Lowry or trade DeRozan. Plan for big cap space in the summer of 2015 when Ross and JV are in final year of rookie deals and Fields and Amir have just come off the books.

    Now is the time to create an environment where you can get your own star(s) by:
    1) drafting him/them,
    2) acquiring assets to trade for him/them,
    3) making a team attractive enough to entice a free agent in a couple of seasons.



    Play hard, play to win, play to develop and grow. But for the love all that is sacred and pure, enough of this half-assed bullsh!t Raptors fans have been forced to claim is the path to success - it is not. This path leads to mediocrity and forced rebuilding shortly down the road. **End rant**
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Nope. It's an accelerated rebuild! :P

    In all seriousness, I'm looking at the off-season and summarizing what has happened.

    Protected 1st round pick + Gary Forbes = Kyle Lowry
    Demar Derozan extension 9.5$ million throughout 4 years.
    Landry Fields restricted free agent signs at 18$ million over 3 years.
    Terrence Ross drafted #8, Quincy Acy drafted #37.
    John Lucas signs a 2 year deal.
    Dominic McGuire waived, Pietrus signed to a vet minimum.

    I mean, we have core pieces in Derozan, Ross, Fields, Valanciunas, Davis, Acy, Johnson.
    The team has a number of veterans in Calderon, Pietrus, Lucas, Gray, Anderson.
    Lowry, Kleiza, Bargnani seem to be the unknowns on what their future is.

    What do I call it? I have absolute no idea, although, we are headed in the right direction with our young pieces, and solid veterans, but with a tiny pinch of quick fixing. Lowry was named to be the future point guard, but Dwane Casey continues to run with the hot hand in terms of Toronto being more successful with Calderon starting. Kleiza has gotten inconsistent minutes, and Bargnani is no discussion needed. Fields was a solid signing with the way he's playing recently, a very good role player. Lucas fills that 3rd string guard position with Calderon/Lowry both being injury prone (Lowry more this season), Pietrus was signed to address production at the 3.

    Quite frankly, we don't have a star. With our pieces, we have really good potential on the wing with Derozan/Ross/Fields, and Good potential with our big man rotation with Davis/Valanciunas/Johnson. Calderon's future regardless of his success right now is unknown, and same goes for Lowry but with his un-success.

    Back to the original question, I think I'll call it, "Let's try to make the playoffs-build."

    Toronto needs to address all their positions: Address the wing with a star/elite player, whether it's the 2 or 3, & address the point guard situation ONCE AND FOR ALL PLEASE.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    You know, if we actually rebuilt, when like, our franchise player took his talents to South Beach...The rebuild would likely actually be done. But the team keeps spinning its wheels, and putting their heads in the sand.

    We are neither building or rebuilding. There are only half-measures. We are the midpoint between the Bucks and Isiah's Knicks.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Jonas is our franchise player boys

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    Whatever we do I want a traditional lineup. I am so sick of these stretch 4 offenses and poorman's small ball. Since the reality is that we don't have any superstar model yourself after the Pacers. Play hardnose defense but I think we can be better offensively. Let the guys we have grow together a bit, dump off the guys that aren't working within the system for picks and short bad contracts. If we make the playoffs for a few years maybe we can lure in a Free Agent or make a trade that lands you a superstar that these teams with 4 of them cant afford with the harsher luxury tax. That is the best we can do unless we tank and go for a game changer player.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    I'd call us a team built around a star. Only problem is we don't have one yet, and I don't know how we plan on acquiring one.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Superstar BasketballCrush's Avatar
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    We could be one of these, if some get their way.


  8. #8
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    You know, if we actually rebuilt, when like, our franchise player took his talents to South Beach...The rebuild would likely actually be done. But the team keeps spinning its wheels, and putting their heads in the sand.

    We are neither building or rebuilding. There are only half-measures. We are the midpoint between the Bucks and Isiah's Knicks.
    Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

    The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.

    You comment on half-measures is the answer. The Raptors have not dared to be awful and they have not dared to be great.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #9
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    I don't even know what this is. Just a pathetic attempt to tease and please fans by getting to the 8th seed to inevitably get fucking demolished by a team like Miami. Oh that's right, we're not even going to make the playoffs.

    "Hit the ground running!" pfft.

  10. #10
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    At least we got Jonas, Ed, and Terrence.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This tweet from @RaptorsMR last night got me thinking about a lot of things:

    1) Moving out of a rebuild is not done by simply saying, "OK, we are finishing our rebuild now" or "We are going to accelerate the process." Unfortunately, that is exactly what Colangelo and Co. have done leading in to this season. If that is in fact the case though, well, the Raptors are now just a shitty team.

    2) Like it or not the Raptors are still very much in a rebuild. The problem is the Raptors don't have very many assets to help the process outside of development and maturation of current players - they have no first round draft pick this season and they have limited to no financial flexibility without a major trade between now and trade deadline or amnestying Bargnani.

    3) What would acknowledgement of a rebuild actually look like? Calderon starting - been going on for years. DeRozan carryi m8ng the scoring load - been going on for years. Patch work at small forward - been going on for years. Frustration with Bargnani - been going on for years. Amir, a stiff, or a rookie starting at C - been going on for years. A point guard controversy/debate - been going on for years. All those things have been going on for years and are continuing so how can one assume the rebuild is complete?

    4) Despite the Raptors insistence they are not doing a rebuild, lets consider the veteran situation on this team:
    • Bargnani has missed half the last 2 seasons and is hardly a contributor to winning or success,
    • Kleiza has missed the better part of 3 years due to a terrible injury and has no future with this team,
    • Amir is what he is: a solid reserve big man who can start when needed but lack of focus leads to inconsistencies,
    • Aaron Gray barely plays and is deep depth off the bench,
    • John Lucas is the Aaron Gray of PGs,
    • Pietrus is a shell of his former self and no longer plays,
    • Anderson is a 30 year old journeyman who is a solid 5th wing off the bench but the Raptors use as a clutch time performer which is great if you want to live and die by the D-Leaguer,
    • Calderon is an UFA with no guarantee to stay and continues to start leading the team nowhere,
    • Lowry is a shell of his former self and despite his immense talent he looks to be an utter failure in Toronto,
    • DeRozan is the youngest veteran and an NBA starter - nothing more, nothing less - getting paid star money starting next season. Like many NBA players he has incredible games followed by bad games. The difference between a star and starter is consistency.


    Now ask yourself, which of those veterans are going to blaze a trail to the playoffs? Which of those veterans are capable of making an all-star game? Which of those veterans are anything more than role players - admittedly some very good role players but role players nonetheless? Which of those players are absolute keepers moving forward?

    I don't know about you but the answer I keep getting is "none" outside of Lowry who could be an all-star in my opinion but has shown even he isn't an absolute keeper.

    This of course leaves ED, TR, JV, QA, DD, and LF as players under 25 with 4 years or less NBA experience plus add in Amir and you have a nice nucleus that is not going to win you many games but are all solid pieces should REAL talent find its way in to the locker room.

    5) Of the 10 veterans listed in 4), only 5 actually play at this time.... yet the team is not rebuilding.... hmmm.

    6) The roster continues to have about 40% turnover each season..... yet no rebuild..... hmmmmm.

    6) So wrapping up, the best thing Toronto can do is accept the reality they are still very much in a rebuild. The Raptors aren't good and a lack of talent continues to be the problem in getting the team out of a state of rebuilding and into a state of competing.

    I agree with @RaptorsMR that fans don't want another rebuild but it is not about having another rebuild now - the Raptors have never left rebuilding in the the first place and it is already a given. Fans don't want another forced rebuild in 2-3 seasons - that is the issue.

    Now is the time to fully embrace rebuilding because the team is certainly not competing with the teams over .500. This team was built around Bargnani and the idea Andrea was a star - and that plan was a failure. The Raptors already have a head start in continuing to rebuild because Ross and JV have shown they are legit NBA talent which is more than most draft picks. The only thing Steffi and Bryan seem to do well is draft - so why not build to your strength?

    Do anything and everything possible to accumulate 2013 and 2014 draft picks and discarded young players (Derrick Williams, Alec Burks, etc.) who still have potential. In exchange, take on the worst of the worst contracts or if need be part with a talented player such as Lowry or trade DeRozan. Plan for big cap space in the summer of 2015 when Ross and JV are in final year of rookie deals and Fields and Amir have just come off the books.

    Now is the time to create an environment where you can get your own star(s) by:
    1) drafting him/them,
    2) acquiring assets to trade for him/them,
    3) making a team attractive enough to entice a free agent in a couple of seasons.



    Play hard, play to win, play to develop and grow. But for the love all that is sacred and pure, enough of this half-assed bullsh!t Raptors fans have been forced to claim is the path to success - it is not. This path leads to mediocrity and forced rebuilding shortly down the road. **End rant**
    Clearly the guys in charge of the Raptors don't know their own fans. I think many of us would have patience if the build was actually progressing along. We need to build thru the draft.

    WE are going to be a lottery for the next few years.

    The sooner management admits it, the better of we'll be!

    This means we add picks and KEEP our picks

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, then it usually is a duck.

    The problem is this rebuild is a duck without a bill. The Raptors have the record of a rebuilding team, the talent of a rebuilding team but lack the assets of a rebuilding team (picks and financial flexibility).

    So like the duck missing the bill, the Raptors are a rebuild that has had an unfortunate accident. The Raptors accident was building a team around Bargnani.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Pill wrote: View Post
    Whatever we do I want a traditional lineup. I am so sick of these stretch 4 offenses and poorman's small ball. Since the reality is that we don't have any superstar model yourself after the Pacers. Play hardnose defense but I think we can be better offensively. Let the guys we have grow together a bit, dump off the guys that aren't working within the system for picks and short bad contracts. If we make the playoffs for a few years maybe we can lure in a Free Agent or make a trade that lands you a superstar that these teams with 4 of them cant afford with the harsher luxury tax. That is the best we can do unless we tank and go for a game changer player.
    OKC is a traditional lineup. Ibaka can hit the mid-range, but in no way is he a stretch 4. I believe OKC is the traditional basketball team, WITH the star. Now, look at them. Drafted great/big contributor players through draft, free agency and trade used to fill in roles, etc.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    I'd call us a team built around a star. Only problem is we don't have one yet, and I don't know how we plan on acquiring one.
    Big V Numba 17!

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Have you all forgotten about Jonas? I think he's got a chance to be a Star that we can build around.

  16. #16
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    Is the talent level higher than last year? Yes, JV, Ross, Fields, and Lowry are certainly upgrades over the players they replaced.

    Do the Raptors have as much financial flexibility moving forward? No, the DeRozan and Fields contracts are too rich for my tastes.

    I believe the Raptors are moving in the right direction and it will be a series of small incremental gains for the next few years, not the big jump we had hoped.

  17. #17
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

    The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.
    I think you hit the nail on the head here. I said this in another post a while ago, but luck is the biggest and yet least discussed aspect of building a successful pro sports team (notice I said team and not organization). Cleveland took a big chance with the Baron Davis contract and pick, but it paid off for them. In contrast, the Raps have had terrible luck with the lottery, from moving down spots to losing a coin flip last year. They lucked out in the worst possible year to do so by winning the draft in 2006. Just look at this list of #1 choices from the last 11 drafts:

    2002 - Yao Ming
    2003 - LeBron James
    2004 - Dwight Howard
    2005 - Andrew Bogut (who even with his injuries is still more valuable than Bargs)
    2006 - Bargs
    2007 - Greg Oden (Durant chosen second)
    2008 - Derrick Rose
    2009 - Blake Griffin
    2010 - John Wall
    2011 - Kyrie Irving
    2012 - Anthony Davis

    Just look at that list. There is franchise-altering talent in the top spot every year with the exception of 2006 (Bargs), 2007 when Durant was chosen second, and 2005 when Chris Paul was taken 3rd (and Bogut, when healthy and on his game, is arguably a franchise-changing talent). On top of that there are guys like Wade peppered in there at lower spots. The Raps managed to secure some decent talent in that time, like Bosh at 4, but they've never really had an outstanding, home-run pick. So you know what I'm expecting? With no real franchise-changing star in this year's draft, the Raps are going to win it. Book it.

    But that's not the point.

    As Matt52 pointed out, sometimes you have to make your own luck. I look at Houston as a perfect example. They've been searching for a star for years, but never managed to land one in the draft. Much like the Raps, they had teams that competed (based on Morey's ability to find players that were undervalued), but the down side to that is that they never fully tanked. What they DID do is stockpile assets and jumped on the chance to land James Harden. And it wouldn't have mattered who they got, in the end they were going to get someone. Because they had a plan and they were pushing year after year to make it happen. And that's my point.

    I don't think BC has a plan.

    He might. But as far as I can tell, the moves he's made during his tenure scream 'throwing shit at a wall and hoping something sticks' rather than 'master plan'. Most damning is that he hasn't committed to either being terrible and loading up in the draft or to piecing together a team via trades by auctioning off youth and picks for latent. Instead he's done a little of each and nothing has really panned out. Granted, some of that is luck. But it seems to me that a lot of it is based around one thing: his clearly mistaken belief that in 2006 he landed his franchise player and that he wouldn't need another one going forward.

  18. #18
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

    The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.

    You comment on half-measures is the answer. The Raptors have not dared to be awful and they have not dared to be great.
    Good topic of discussion.

    I like where Cleveland is now. I compare them to the Raps because they were in similar situation when both Bosh and Lebron left.

    They have gone the route of the draft and they are imo one player (muhammad perhaps?) away from having a proper young core to build around. Kyrie is a star no question and Tristan, Zeller and Waiters will all grow with the team.

    The Raps have no elite talent and until they find a way to make that happen we will be stuck trying to accelerate a rebuild that never got fully underway.

    Hopefully a new GM will come in a see this and tear this team down immediately.

    I'm glad Colangelo's years of mismangement has become apparent to the fan base and what we really have as a team. The Raps are just not that good and have a low ceiling, which is evident by their record. Only a fool of a GM would be announcing an "accelerated rebuold" when he never built properly to begin with and the team has no all-star talent at the foundation. lol

  19. #19
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    We are neither building or rebuilding. There are only half-measures. We are the midpoint between the Bucks and Isiah's Knicks.
    Agreed. Many of us have been saying for years now that a big part of the problem has been management trying to have it both ways: field a team that can win immediately, which is comprised almost wholly of young players and bargain players. That's almost impossible.

    It's all been said before. They've wasted years being terrible and getting nowhere, so, how do you now sell a rebuild when that is what you were supposed to be doing in the first place? Again, said it before, it's why you fire Colangelo when Bosh left. They needed to start then cause it was never about 2 years, it was about 5 or 6 years as Colangelo threw away the first 2. Now, you're pushing 6-7 years.

    The whole thing is just awful.

  20. #20
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Good topic of discussion.

    I like where Cleveland is now. I compare them to the Raps because they were in similar situation when both Bosh and Lebron left.

    They have gone the route of the draft and they are imo one player (muhammad perhaps?) away from having a proper young core to build around. Kyrie is a star no question and Tristan, Zeller and Waiters will all grow with the team.

    The Raps have no elite talent and until they find a way to make that happen we will be stuck trying to accelerate a rebuild that never got fully underway.

    Hopefully a new GM will come in a see this and tear this team down immediately.

    I'm glad Colangelo's years of mismangement has become apparent to the fan base and what we really have as a team. The Raps are just not that good and have a low ceiling, which is evident by their record. Only a fool of a GM would be announcing an "accelerated rebuold" when he never built properly to begin with and the team has no all-star talent at the foundation. lol
    I agree with this. Better to start all over again ASAP, rather than stall for a couple of years.

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