View Poll Results: Are the Raptors still in a rebuild?

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  • Yes

    10 66.67%
  • No - and if not, what is it?

    5 33.33%
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Thread: If this isn't a rebuild, what is it?

  1. #21
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This tweet from @RaptorsMR last night got me thinking about a lot of things:

    1) Moving out of a rebuild is not done by simply saying, "OK, we are finishing our rebuild now" or "We are going to accelerate the process." Unfortunately, that is exactly what Colangelo and Co. have done leading in to this season. If that is in fact the case though, well, the Raptors are now just a shitty team.

    2) Like it or not the Raptors are still very much in a rebuild. The problem is the Raptors don't have very many assets to help the process outside of development and maturation of current players - they have no first round draft pick this season and they have limited to no financial flexibility without a major trade between now and trade deadline or amnestying Bargnani.

    3) What would acknowledgement of a rebuild actually look like? Calderon starting - been going on for years. DeRozan carrying the scoring load - been going on for years. Patch work at small forward - been going on for years. Frustration with Bargnani - been going on for years. Amir, a stiff, or a rookie starting at C - been going on for years. A point guard controversy/debate - been going on for years. All those things have been going on for years and are continuing so how can one assume the rebuild is complete?

    4) Despite the Raptors insistence they are not doing a rebuild, lets consider the veteran situation on this team:
    • Bargnani has missed half the last 2 seasons and is hardly a contributor to winning or success,
    • Kleiza has missed the better part of 3 years due to a terrible injury and has no future with this team,
    • Amir is what he is: a solid reserve big man who can start when needed but lack of focus leads to inconsistencies,
    • Aaron Gray barely plays and is deep depth off the bench,
    • John Lucas is the Aaron Gray of PGs,
    • Pietrus is a shell of his former self and no longer plays,
    • Anderson is a 30 year old journeyman who is a solid 5th wing off the bench but the Raptors use as a clutch time performer which is great if you want to live and die by the D-Leaguer,
    • Calderon is an UFA with no guarantee to stay and continues to start leading the team nowhere,
    • Lowry is a shell of his former self and despite his immense talent he looks to be an utter failure in Toronto,
    • DeRozan is the youngest veteran and an NBA starter - nothing more, nothing less - getting paid star money starting next season. Like many NBA players he has incredible games followed by bad games. The difference between a star and starter is consistency.


    Now ask yourself, which of those veterans are going to blaze a trail to the playoffs? Which of those veterans are capable of making an all-star game? Which of those veterans are anything more than role players - admittedly some very good role players but role players nonetheless? Which of those players are absolute keepers moving forward?

    I don't know about you but the answer I keep getting is "none" outside of Lowry who could be an all-star in my opinion but has shown even he isn't an absolute keeper.

    This of course leaves ED, TR, JV, QA, DD, and LF as players under 25 with 4 years or less NBA experience plus add in Amir and you have a nice nucleus that is not going to win you many games but are all solid pieces should REAL talent find its way in to the locker room.

    5) Of the 10 veterans listed in 4), only 5 actually play at this time.... yet the team is not rebuilding.... hmmm.

    6) The roster continues to have about 40% turnover each season..... yet no rebuild..... hmmmmm.

    6) So wrapping up, the best thing Toronto can do is accept the reality they are still very much in a rebuild. The Raptors aren't good and a lack of talent continues to be the problem in getting the team out of a state of rebuilding and into a state of competing.

    I agree with @RaptorsMR that fans don't want another rebuild but it is not about having another rebuild now - the Raptors have never left rebuilding in the the first place and it is already a given. Fans don't want another forced rebuild in 2-3 seasons - that is the issue.

    Now is the time to fully embrace rebuilding because the team is certainly not competing with the teams over .500. This team was built around Bargnani and the idea Andrea was a star - and that plan was a failure. The Raptors already have a head start in continuing to rebuild because Ross and JV have shown they are legit NBA talent which is more than most draft picks. The only thing Steffi and Bryan seem to do well is draft - so why not build to your strength?

    Do anything and everything possible to accumulate 2013 and 2014 draft picks and discarded young players (Derrick Williams, Alec Burks, etc.) who still have potential. In exchange, take on the worst of the worst contracts or if need be part with a talented player such as Lowry or trade DeRozan. Plan for big cap space in the summer of 2015 when Ross and JV are in final year of rookie deals and Fields and Amir have just come off the books.

    Now is the time to create an environment where you can get your own star(s) by:
    1) drafting him/them,
    2) acquiring assets to trade for him/them,
    3) making a team attractive enough to entice a free agent in a couple of seasons.



    Play hard, play to win, play to develop and grow. But for the love all that is sacred and pure, enough of this half-assed bullsh!t Raptors fans have been forced to claim is the path to success - it is not. This path leads to mediocrity and forced rebuilding shortly down the road. **End rant**
    Despite BC'S denial there is a lack of talent. He is ultimately responsible. If he fails to improve the talent level by trade deadline then he needs to be fired.

  2. #22
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Jonas is our franchise player boys


    Maybe but how long too wait to find out? It took most of us 6 years to figure out that AB is not a star.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I don't see Jonas being more than a Tyson Chandler type. A very good player, and one who could help you win a championship, but not a "franchise player" who deserves building around.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think this is precisely why I had my doubts about this particular team from the very start.

    I saw the patterns that things hadn't changed. Let's just put aside the actual abilities of each player mentioned and just focus on a general "glazed eyes" overview of what transpired this past summer.

    Things you don't do if you're serious about rebuilding:
    - you do not offer a player who is average at his position a star-like contract (Derozan)
    - you especially don't do this before you even have a chance to evaluate if he's worth that amount
    - you don't trade away a first round draft pick for a point guard (Lowry) when you're already paying (a lot) for another (Calderon)
    - you don't think for a second about pursuing a 38 year-old former all star when you won 30% of your games the year before
    - you don't overbid yourself and overpay players who have no business making the kind of money you're offering (Fields)
    - you don't keep building around a guy (Bargnani) when he has taken you nowhere over the past 4-5 years

    To me, the drafting of Jonas was a clear cut signal to management and ownership that we were entering not only a rebuilding phase but one that would take 3-5 years. Firstly big men take awhile. Secondly, European game translation sometimes takes awhile. Thirdly it was widely considered a weak draft. Finally, we had to wait a year for development to start.

    So any moves made contrary to what should be done when you're looking at a 3-4 year window is a potential sabotage, and you look at the above list and it's clear that they never had any intention to follow through. So either we're talking about a guy who has trouble committing to a plan, or he just has no plan. He's never looking at the big picture.

    You can call it accelerated rebuilding, but I think of it as the slowest possible way to rebuild because you keep sabotaging yourself time and time again. He needs to learn to stick with the big picture vision. This means acquire draft picks, trade expiring contracts, staying on the low side of cap space when possible so that he can be opportunistic when a team is desperate to unload or in the long run, when there's an opportunity to sign a big name to complete the puzzle.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  5. #25
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This tweet from @RaptorsMR last night got me thinking about a lot of things:

    1) Moving out of a rebuild is not done by simply saying, "OK, we are finishing our rebuild now" or "We are going to accelerate the process." Unfortunately, that is exactly what Colangelo and Co. have done leading in to this season. If that is in fact the case though, well, the Raptors are now just a shitty team.

    2) Like it or not the Raptors are still very much in a rebuild. The problem is the Raptors don't have very many assets to help the process outside of development and maturation of current players - they have no first round draft pick this season and they have limited to no financial flexibility without a major trade between now and trade deadline or amnestying Bargnani.

    3) What would acknowledgement of a rebuild actually look like? Calderon starting - been going on for years. DeRozan carrying the scoring load - been going on for years. Patch work at small forward - been going on for years. Frustration with Bargnani - been going on for years. Amir, a stiff, or a rookie starting at C - been going on for years. A point guard controversy/debate - been going on for years. All those things have been going on for years and are continuing so how can one assume the rebuild is complete?

    4) Despite the Raptors insistence they are not doing a rebuild, lets consider the veteran situation on this team:
    • Bargnani has missed half the last 2 seasons and is hardly a contributor to winning or success,
    • Kleiza has missed the better part of 3 years due to a terrible injury and has no future with this team,
    • Amir is what he is: a solid reserve big man who can start when needed but lack of focus leads to inconsistencies,
    • Aaron Gray barely plays and is deep depth off the bench,
    • John Lucas is the Aaron Gray of PGs,
    • Pietrus is a shell of his former self and no longer plays,
    • Anderson is a 30 year old journeyman who is a solid 5th wing off the bench but the Raptors use as a clutch time performer which is great if you want to live and die by the D-Leaguer,
    • Calderon is an UFA with no guarantee to stay and continues to start leading the team nowhere,
    • Lowry is a shell of his former self and despite his immense talent he looks to be an utter failure in Toronto,
    • DeRozan is the youngest veteran and an NBA starter - nothing more, nothing less - getting paid star money starting next season. Like many NBA players he has incredible games followed by bad games. The difference between a star and starter is consistency.


    Now ask yourself, which of those veterans are going to blaze a trail to the playoffs? Which of those veterans are capable of making an all-star game? Which of those veterans are anything more than role players - admittedly some very good role players but role players nonetheless? Which of those players are absolute keepers moving forward?

    I don't know about you but the answer I keep getting is "none" outside of Lowry who could be an all-star in my opinion but has shown even he isn't an absolute keeper.

    This of course leaves ED, TR, JV, QA, DD, and LF as players under 25 with 4 years or less NBA experience plus add in Amir and you have a nice nucleus that is not going to win you many games but are all solid pieces should REAL talent find its way in to the locker room.

    5) Of the 10 veterans listed in 4), only 5 actually play at this time.... yet the team is not rebuilding.... hmmm.

    6) The roster continues to have about 40% turnover each season..... yet no rebuild..... hmmmmm.

    6) So wrapping up, the best thing Toronto can do is accept the reality they are still very much in a rebuild. The Raptors aren't good and a lack of talent continues to be the problem in getting the team out of a state of rebuilding and into a state of competing.

    I agree with @RaptorsMR that fans don't want another rebuild but it is not about having another rebuild now - the Raptors have never left rebuilding in the the first place and it is already a given. Fans don't want another forced rebuild in 2-3 seasons - that is the issue.

    Now is the time to fully embrace rebuilding because the team is certainly not competing with the teams over .500. This team was built around Bargnani and the idea Andrea was a star - and that plan was a failure. The Raptors already have a head start in continuing to rebuild because Ross and JV have shown they are legit NBA talent which is more than most draft picks. The only thing Steffi and Bryan seem to do well is draft - so why not build to your strength?

    Do anything and everything possible to accumulate 2013 and 2014 draft picks and discarded young players (Derrick Williams, Alec Burks, etc.) who still have potential. In exchange, take on the worst of the worst contracts or if need be part with a talented player such as Lowry or trade DeRozan. Plan for big cap space in the summer of 2015 when Ross and JV are in final year of rookie deals and Fields and Amir have just come off the books.

    Now is the time to create an environment where you can get your own star(s) by:
    1) drafting him/them,
    2) acquiring assets to trade for him/them,
    3) making a team attractive enough to entice a free agent in a couple of seasons.



    Play hard, play to win, play to develop and grow. But for the love all that is sacred and pure, enough of this half-assed bullsh!t Raptors fans have been forced to claim is the path to success - it is not. This path leads to mediocrity and forced rebuilding shortly down the road. **End rant**


    Whether or not the team is rebuilding depends not so much on where we are as where we're going.
    You can't look at the team, and its lack of potential or veteran talent, and say, therefore we are still rebuilding.
    This is only evidence that we should be rebuilding, not whether are rebuilding.

    The most recent half assed rebuild started when Bosh Left for Miami and ended when:
    - Colangelo traded away our first round draft pick for a veteran pg
    - Colangelo blew all our cap space signing Fields and extending Derozan
    These moves clearly show that our front office (for better or worse) decided the time to win was now, rather than accumulating more young talent.
    So the Raptors are not currently "rebuilding", nor are they "winning now". Instead, the Raptors are in the same perpetual limbo that they always find themselves in.
    So you are correct that nothing has changed really over the last few years. I would just argue that this is no longer a rebuild, but a failed attempt to win now.... which will likely necessitate another rebuild (of the half-assed variety no doubt)

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote pcrombeen wrote: View Post
    Whether or not the team is rebuilding depends not so much on where we are as where we're going.
    You can't look at the team, and its lack of potential or veteran talent, and say, therefore we are still rebuilding.
    This is only evidence that we should be rebuilding, not whether are rebuilding.

    The most recent half assed rebuild started when Bosh Left for Miami and ended when:
    - Colangelo traded away our first round draft pick for a veteran pg
    - Colangelo blew all our cap space signing Fields and extending Derozan
    These moves clearly show that our front office (for better or worse) decided the time to win was now, rather than accumulating more young talent.
    So the Raptors are not currently "rebuilding", nor are they "winning now". Instead, the Raptors are in the same perpetual limbo that they always find themselves in.
    So you are correct that nothing has changed really over the last few years. I would just argue that this is no longer a rebuild, but a failed attempt to win now.... which will likely necessitate another rebuild (of the half-assed variety no doubt)
    I agree with your post.

    My point is we are not competing and due to lack of assets we certainly aren't rebuilding - right now. I would look at the process of team evolution for the majority of teams to be:
    tear down, rebuild, compete, contend, rinse and repeat

    @RaptorsMR says fans couldn't take another rebuild. I agree with him - in 2-3 seasons when one will be forced upon the franchise unless JV and Ross become All-Stars.

    The end result of your take and mine is the same, I believe: stop the half-assed rebuilds and turn back on this path the team currently finds itself traveling. It leads nowhere good.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree with your post.

    My point is we are not competing and due to lack of assets we certainly aren't rebuilding - right now. I would look at the process of team evolution for the majority of teams to be:
    tear down, rebuild, compete, contend, rinse and repeat

    @RaptorsMR says fans couldn't take another rebuild. I agree with him - in 2-3 seasons when one will be forced upon the franchise unless JV and Ross become All-Stars.

    The end result of your take and mine is the same, I believe: stop the half-assed rebuilds and turn back on this path the team currently finds itself traveling. It leads nowhere good.
    I wonder what family gatherings are like for the Colangelo's. What does Jerry say when he looks at his son?

    J: "Bry.. pass me the gravy."
    B:
    J: "So.. rebuilding again? How's that going?"
    B: "Good, it's going good."
    J: "Seriously though, when are you going to start?"
    B: "What do you mean?"
    J: "DeRozan? Really? Landry Fields?"
    B: "I..."
    J: "You do understand what that means, right? To rebuild?"
    B: "Yes, I...um.. Jonas, and Ross."
    J: "..and Lowry. Right. I mean, you understand the concept of rebuilding, correct?"
    B: "Sir.. I.. 13 games. And Nash."
    J: "Just know, that no matter what, I still love you."
    B: "...."
    your pal,
    ebrian

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think this is precisely why I had my doubts about this particular team from the very start.

    I saw the patterns that things hadn't changed. Let's just put aside the actual abilities of each player mentioned and just focus on a general "glazed eyes" overview of what transpired this past summer.

    Things you don't do if you're serious about rebuilding:
    - you do not offer a player who is average at his position a star-like contract (Derozan)
    - you especially don't do this before you even have a chance to evaluate if he's worth that amount
    - you don't trade away a first round draft pick for a point guard (Lowry) when you're already paying (a lot) for another (Calderon)
    - you don't think for a second about pursuing a 38 year-old former all star when you won 30% of your games the year before
    - you don't overbid yourself and overpay players who have no business making the kind of money you're offering (Fields)
    - you don't keep building around a guy (Bargnani) when he has taken you nowhere over the past 4-5 years

    To me, the drafting of Jonas was a clear cut signal to management and ownership that we were entering not only a rebuilding phase but one that would take 3-5 years. Firstly big men take awhile. Secondly, European game translation sometimes takes awhile. Thirdly it was widely considered a weak draft. Finally, we had to wait a year for development to start.

    So any moves made contrary to what should be done when you're looking at a 3-4 year window is a potential sabotage, and you look at the above list and it's clear that they never had any intention to follow through. So either we're talking about a guy who has trouble committing to a plan, or he just has no plan. He's never looking at the big picture.

    You can call it accelerated rebuilding, but I think of it as the slowest possible way to rebuild because you keep sabotaging yourself time and time again. He needs to learn to stick with the big picture vision. This means acquire draft picks, trade expiring contracts, staying on the low side of cap space when possible so that he can be opportunistic when a team is desperate to unload or in the long run, when there's an opportunity to sign a big name to complete the puzzle.
    I don't agree with the bolded. Drafting Jonas was a gimme especially given the draft class and who was left. Don't get me wrong, there were definetely other options available to the team, but I don't think drafting Jonas indicated they were rebuilding.

    Especially considering what they did just before (sign Casey) and the way the referred to Jonas (a Tyson Chandler) and Bargnani (comparing him to Dirk) - all this right off Dallas championship run.

    The reaction by this organization to drafting Jonas was a sign, to me anyways, the rebuild had ended and they just had to wait out the year. And to go along with what pcrombeen and others was said, it was half assed. A retool, never a rebuild.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't see Jonas being more than a Tyson Chandler type. A very good player, and one who could help you win a championship, but not a "franchise player" who deserves building around.
    You're in for a huge surprise then

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with the bolded. Drafting Jonas was a gimme especially given the draft class and who was left. Don't get me wrong, there were definetely other options available to the team, but I don't think drafting Jonas indicated they were rebuilding.

    Especially considering what they did just before (sign Casey) and the way the referred to Jonas (a Tyson Chandler) and Bargnani (comparing him to Dirk) - all this right off Dallas championship run.

    The reaction by this organization to drafting Jonas was a sign, to me anyways, the rebuild had ended and they just had to wait out the year. And to go along with what pcrombeen and others was said, it was half assed. A retool, never a rebuild.
    The reaction to me was that they didn't know what they were doing. If you expect Jonas to join the NBA this year and become a NBA starter caliber immediately, you must be extremely disappointed. He's at least 2-3 years away from that.

    Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say..

    If this organization thought that, then they should all be fired.
    Last edited by ebrian; Mon Jan 28th, 2013 at 03:52 PM.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  11. #31
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree with your post.

    My point is we are not competing and due to lack of assets we certainly aren't rebuilding - right now. I would look at the process of team evolution for the majority of teams to be:
    tear down, rebuild, compete, contend, rinse and repeat

    @RaptorsMR says fans couldn't take another rebuild. I agree with him - in 2-3 seasons when one will be forced upon the franchise unless JV and Ross become All-Stars.

    The end result of your take and mine is the same, I believe: stop the half-assed rebuilds and turn back on this path the team currently finds itself traveling. It leads nowhere good.
    I would ask @RaptorsMR how fans could possibly consider "another" rebuild, considering that there has never been a proper rebuild completed in the first place.

    The fans were urging for a proper rebuild to be done immediately upon Bosh's departure, but it was delayed, then accelerated. I think this team needs to do "a" proper rebuild, not "another" one.


    TOP 10 SIGNS YOUR TEAM IS NOT DOING A PROPER REBUILD

    10. It only lasts 1 season; the season your new prized draft pick is playing overseas!

    9. The 3 key holdovers on the roster, who all have significant weaknesses (talent/heart/age/contract status), are all still on the team nearly 3 years after the rebuild [should have] started (DeRozan, Bargnani, Calderon)!

    8. One of those 3 key holdovers was rewarded with a huge contract extension, despite not proving he's worth it, less than a month into the season following the draft in which the #8 overall pick was used to select his replacement!

    7. The key offseason signing heading into the 2nd season of the true rebuild was a gross overpayment for an unproven player coming off a disastrous season, who was signed less for what he brings to the table and more in half-baked attempt to block another team from trading for a player they had no business pursuing in the first place!

    6. Despite having 3 PFs who are all capable of starting and multiple positions that require immediate upgrading, nothing proactive has been done to either clear the logjam at one position, or address the weaknesss at other positions; nothing has been legitimately done to address the glaring weakness at the SF position, which has been a black-hole of suckage since the last franchise player left town!

    5. The rebuilding plan was accelerated, seemingly so that old vets and D-league castoffs can get sizeable chunks of playing time, rather than giving young players the opportunity to develop... all in a foolhearty attempt to make a highly improbable run at the 8th seed for the playoffs!

    4. A future 1st round pick (not just any 1st round pick, but one that ties-up all future 1st round picks from being used as tradeable assets for up to six years) is traded for a shoot-first PG with a reputation for having a me-first attitude, to replace a veteran PG who's witnessed 3 other shoot-first/me-first PGs get run out of town!

    3. In the 1st season of the true rebuild - a lockout shortened season with a new coach, no training camp and the #5 overall pick from the past draft playing overseas - the team used washed-up vets and D-league scrubs to scratch-and-claw their way to several extra 'character/culture building' victories, costing them a legitmate chance at a top-6 draft pick in a loaded draft!

    2. The team makes signing a nearly washed-up 38-year old who's greatest benefit is to the team's marketing department, their #1 priority in only the 2nd offseason of the rebuild!

    1. The "I don't know how to do a proper rebuild" GM is in charge of the alleged rebuild!!!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Jan 28th, 2013 at 03:57 PM.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with the bolded. Drafting Jonas was a gimme especially given the draft class and who was left. Don't get me wrong, there were definetely other options available to the team, but I don't think drafting Jonas indicated they were rebuilding.

    Especially considering what they did just before (sign Casey) and the way the referred to Jonas (a Tyson Chandler) and Bargnani (comparing him to Dirk) - all this right off Dallas championship run.

    The reaction by this organization to drafting Jonas was a sign, to me anyways, the rebuild had ended and they just had to wait out the year. And to go along with what pcrombeen and others was said, it was half assed. A retool, never a rebuild.
    Let me put it to you another way -- Orlando Magic drafted Dwight Howard and they weren't finished rebuilding yet.

    If Toronto management thought we were finished with the rebuild after drafting Jonas, then they should all be fired. Immediately.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Let me put it to you another way -- Orlando Magic drafted Dwight Howard and they weren't finished rebuilding yet.

    If Toronto management thought we were finished with the rebuild after drafting Jonas, then they should all be fired. Immediately.
    They were going to add or change some peices ofcourse, but the rebuild was done. They had their core (bargnani, val, demar). The actions they took after was more or less support this (Chasing Nash, Lowry, Ross drafted for need - and, as has come out since, trying to move that pick).

    Non-core players come and go. Some are better than others, but they are generally speaking expendable. But its a change to that core group that really constitutes a rebuild (to me anyways), that never really happened except for adding Jonas. Thats why I always see this as a retooling, not a rebuild.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    i wonder what family gatherings are like for the colangelo's. What does jerry say when he looks at his son?

    J: "bry.. Pass me the gravy."
    b:
    j: "so.. Rebuilding again? How's that going?"
    b: "good, it's going good."
    j: "seriously though, when are you going to start?"
    b: "what do you mean?"
    j: "derozan? Really? Landry fields?"
    b: "i..."
    j: "you do understand what that means, right? To rebuild?"
    b: "yes, i...um.. Jonas, and ross."
    j: "..and lowry. Right. I mean, you understand the concept of rebuilding, correct?"
    b: "sir.. I.. 13 games. And nash."
    j: "just know, that no matter what, i still love you."
    b: "...."
    lol!!!!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused. There is a lot of this idea that acquiring a superstar is the only way to get better. Guess what folks, unless the Raptors manage to somehow lose 70 ish games in a season, there is no superhero coming to save us in the draft. All you are going to get is guys like Ross and DeRozan who may have a chance at being special. And you know what else: getting that top pick doesn't neccessarily guarentee success (ehem Washington).

    We have talent, Ed Davis is quickly becoming a top ten power forward who is doing well in all three facets of the game: rebounding, scoring, and defence. Demar Derozan, despite going through a rough patch right now, is a pretty good second or third option on any team and is playing better defense this year then he has in the past. Terrance Ross looks like he could be very scary, especially if he gets some consistency to that shot, and Jonas has franchise center written all over him.

    You guys keep talking about getting a whole bunch of picks and getting a bunch of young talent to build around: news flash, that's what we have right now. This is the time to try to pick up some veterans and try to build something, not trade away the young talent we've managed to build up in order to get different young talent 4 years down the road.

    Another point: this team is pretty good. Since Bargs went down we lead the league in offensive efficiency. See the CNNSI stats thread. We have had 11 games -11!!! - where we held a lead in the fourth and lost it. That isn't lack of talent, that's poor execution and having young players who are nervous and don't have the stage presence to at this point in their careers to put us over the top. If we win 6 of those 11 this team is 0.500 and in the playoffs and we are not having this conversation. It's this king of silly reactionism that leads to teams never getting out of the lottery.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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  16. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I'm a little confused. There is a lot of this idea that acquiring a superstar is the only way to get better. Guess what folks, unless the Raptors manage to somehow lose 70 ish games in a season, there is no superhero coming to save us in the draft. All you are going to get is guys like Ross and DeRozan who may have a chance at being special. And you know what else: getting that top pick doesn't neccessarily guarentee success (ehem Washington).

    We have talent, Ed Davis is quickly becoming a top ten power forward who is doing well in all three facets of the game: rebounding, scoring, and defence. Demar Derozan, despite going through a rough patch right now, is a pretty good second or third option on any team and is playing better defense this year then he has in the past. Terrance Ross looks like he could be very scary, especially if he gets some consistency to that shot, and Jonas has franchise center written all over him.

    You guys keep talking about getting a whole bunch of picks and getting a bunch of young talent to build around: news flash, that's what we have right now. This is the time to try to pick up some veterans and try to build something, not trade away the young talent we've managed to build up in order to get different young talent 4 years down the road.

    Another point: this team is pretty good. Since Bargs went down we lead the league in offensive efficiency. See the CNNSI stats thread. We have had 11 games -11!!! - where we held a lead in the fourth and lost it. That isn't lack of talent, that's poor execution and having young players who are nervous and don't have the stage presence to at this point in their careers to put us over the top. If we win 6 of those 11 this team is 0.500 and in the playoffs and we are not having this conversation. It's this king of silly reactionism that leads to teams never getting out of the lottery.
    I don't think anyone is questioning that this team could get better without a superstar. The problem is thats not getting you far. And even the teams that are more than first round playoff fodder (ie. rarely do more than lose in the 2nd round instead) that don't have a superstar, are extremely well built teams with numerous (potential) all-stars

    And yes this team has a few young players that were picks - but nobody has shown they are even remotely close to special. Just good or pretty good. Not Lebrons or Pauls, or even Currys or Georges. (except perhaps Jonas)

    The bolded part I couldn't disagree with more. Whats happened is completely a lack of talent. Top tier, top notch, all-star, superstar, star, stud.... whatever names one wants to give.... talent. There is more quality players on this team than a bunch of teams, and thats why the Raps beat the bad teams. But it completely lacks that high end talent, and thats why they can't beat the good teams.

    Edit: should have added. Toronto isn't getting that talent without the draft or the assets that are picks. And the best chance to get that level of talent is with a high pick.
    Last edited by Craiger; Mon Jan 28th, 2013 at 05:36 PM.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I don't think anyone is questioning that this team could get better without a superstar. The problem is thats not getting you far. And even the teams that are more than first round playoff fodder (ie. rarely do more than lose in the 2nd round instead) that don't have a superstar, are extremely well built teams with numerous (potential) all-stars

    And yes this team has a few young players that were picks - but nobody has shown they are even remotely close to special. Just good or pretty good. Not Lebrons or Pauls, or even Currys or Georges. (except perhaps Jonas)

    The bolded part I couldn't disagree with more. Whats happened is completely a lack of talent. Top tier, top notch, all-star, superstar, star, stud.... whatever names one wants to give.... talent. There is more quality players on this team than a bunch of teams, and thats why the Raps beat the bad teams. But it completely lacks that high end talent, and thats why they can't beat the good teams.

    Edit: should have added. Toronto isn't getting that talent without the draft or the assets that are picks. And the best chance to get that level of talent is with a high pick.
    A few things here. First that nobody they have is close to special: Ed Davis has all star potential. He's averaging 14 and 8 in January and you can see the improvent he's made offensively since he became a starter. He's also a pretty good defender and a very good athlete. he's only 23 and once he gets his man muscles he's going to be a very toungh cover. I'd also say that Jose and Lowry are both borderline all stars.

    If the standard is Lebron or Paul, we are in for a long wait, because those guys are generational talents.

    The idea that high end talent, which I take to mean a super duper star, is needed to beat good teams down the stretch is a myth. You need good execution and you need to hustle on D. These are things that come from buying in and from experience. Giving up an offensive rebound off a free throw in the last two minutes has nothing to do with a lack of talent, it is about a lack of focus. Taking long jumpers 5 seconds into the shot clock isa problem with guys not buying in enough. Now you can argue that focus can't be learned, but I think it comes with experience. Is it nice to have Lebron James to execute for you? Absolutely, but it's not necesary. I'm not talking about game winning shots here, those are mostly luck, I'm talking about solid play down the stretch.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I'm a little confused. There is a lot of this idea that acquiring a superstar is the only way to get better. Guess what folks, unless the Raptors manage to somehow lose 70 ish games in a season, there is no superhero coming to save us in the draft. All you are going to get is guys like Ross and DeRozan who may have a chance at being special. And you know what else: getting that top pick doesn't neccessarily guarentee success (ehem Washington).

    We have talent, Ed Davis is quickly becoming a top ten power forward who is doing well in all three facets of the game: rebounding, scoring, and defence. Demar Derozan, despite going through a rough patch right now, is a pretty good second or third option on any team and is playing better defense this year then he has in the past. Terrance Ross looks like he could be very scary, especially if he gets some consistency to that shot, and Jonas has franchise center written all over him.

    You guys keep talking about getting a whole bunch of picks and getting a bunch of young talent to build around: news flash, that's what we have right now. This is the time to try to pick up some veterans and try to build something, not trade away the young talent we've managed to build up in order to get different young talent 4 years down the road.

    Another point: this team is pretty good. Since Bargs went down we lead the league in offensive efficiency. See the CNNSI stats thread. We have had 11 games -11!!! - where we held a lead in the fourth and lost it. That isn't lack of talent, that's poor execution and having young players who are nervous and don't have the stage presence to at this point in their careers to put us over the top. If we win 6 of those 11 this team is 0.500 and in the playoffs and we are not having this conversation. It's this king of silly reactionism that leads to teams never getting out of the lottery.
    Who is talking getting the number one pick? Who is talking becoming the worst team in the league? I believe the conversation here is cash out veterans with any sort of value or cash out veterans with little value for veterans with even less value in exchange for prospects and picks.

    Can you show me ED's defense? DeRozan is an average starter with a star contract. I agree Ross could be scary... he might also just be what he is. JV may be a franchise centre but what if he isn't?

    Your third paragraph shows you did not get the point or understand the thread: who wants to trade away the young players currently on the roster? JV and TR are definitely keepers. DD's contract makes him a keeper same with Fields - desired or not. Acy looks like he can give 12 mins of hustle and energy each night. ED has his flaws right now but he is still cheap and making progress. Amir Johnson is a reserve big man every team would love to have.

    The Raptors are playing their young guys big minutes and they should keep doing that. But instead of hoping this group of youth continues to develop and get better to all-star levels, why not get more youth and promising players that may actually have a chance at being an all-star. Most all-star talent in this league is known at a very early stage in their careers. Irving and Griffin are recent examples #1's who are all-stars by their second year. But there are a host of other players who become all stars early who were not #1 picks. The point is all-star talent tends to identify itself early. The more young guys you get, the more chance of hitting that lottery gold whether it is early lottery or mid first round. The one thing that Stefanski and Colangelo do exceptionally well is draft, so why not build to their strengths? Even in your post of maybes, possibilities, and ifs there is still no certainty when it comes to the talent currently on the roster. And, worst case scenario, lets say all these picks and prospects don't deliver the all-star and we continue to have a cast of TR's, DD's, ED's, AJ's, LF's, etc. then what? Well, that is when you can cash some assets (rookie contracts and picks) out to get that talent. Toronto is currently team filled with promising but not necessarily spectacular players, minimal draft picks, and overpaid role players. Overall they lack talent and financial flexibility - the worst combination possible!

    Here is a news flash: 11 games with a fourth quarter lead and ending up losing (not to mention the games up by 20 and lost) is in fact a sign of a lack of talent. Great talent can find a way to overcome poor execution. Essentially your argument is if the Raptors don't turn over the ball down the stretch, run every set perfectly, and stop the other team from scoring, they will win. Well, yeah, no shit. But the problem is the really good teams (and most often the ones with the stars) lock it down on defense when it matters most and have a player who can create something from nothing. In case you have not noticed, the NBA is a stars league. The stars are promoted and shine when the game matters most. The Raptors have no one who can step up when a play breaks down or the defense becomes suffocating. Teams plan for DD and he disappears - and the Raptors broadcasters act as if this is a good thing! The defense collapses on the lanes and the Raps are forced to take jump shot after jump shot, why? Because no one - outside of Lowry - can create their own shot. The Raptors are 1-17 versus teams over .500 - that speaks volumes!

    Your post is everything that has gone on in Toronto for 7 years and I have been guilty of in the past as well: one big excuse after another. At some point promises and potential have to become something more than hot air.... and heaven knows there is no shortage of hot air rising from the ACC. Yes there is progress but there is hardly

    The bottom line is the Raptors record is what they are. The "11 games leading in the 4th" argument is no different than the start of the year when the refrain was "It is only 11 games in to the season guys!" Their performance in extremely important games against Philly and Milwaukee - after starting the year 4-19 - are indicative of what they are: a lottery team (*with no pick!*) and a first round ceiling at best.

    I hate to tell you but this kind of silly reactionism is not the cause for the lack of playoff appearances, it is the belief that everything is gumdrops and jelly beans in Raptorland and the team is on the path to success at worst and greatness at best.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #39
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

    The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.

    You comment on half-measures is the answer. The Raptors have not dared to be awful and they have not dared to be great.
    Cleveland could afford not to cut corners whereas Toronto could not. Before they(Cleveland) went on a rebuilding mode, thanks to Lebron, they were quite a successful team. If I remember correctly, they finished with the best record in the East 2 or 3 times and made the Eastern Conf. final a couple of times. On the whole, they had about 5 successful years. When a team enjoys such success, it is reasonable for it to expect it's fans to be patient while a rebuild takes place. We all know what Toronto went through during that time.

    As far as the 'rebuild' is concerned, correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard anyone from the Raps. brass claim that they are not in 'rebuild mode'. Not his exact words but BC has said that after spending a year making a culture change, creating some cap space and getting a good pick(Ross-not bad for 8), they are now in the next stage of the 'rebuild'. This means that the 'rebuild' is not complete only it's not in the initial stage.

    While I do agree that handing DD the extension has handicapped the team financially, I also believe that some flexibility is being created and we will hear about it shortly. In Lowry, Jose, Bargnani to name a few, we have some trade-able assets, so I have a good feeling about this.
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  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Cleveland could afford not to cut corners whereas Toronto could not. Before they(Cleveland) went on a rebuilding mode, thanks to Lebron, they were quite a successful team. If I remember correctly, they finished with the best record in the East 2 or 3 times and made the Eastern Conf. final a couple of times. On the whole, they had about 5 successful years. When a team enjoys such success, it is reasonable for it to expect it's fans to be patient while a rebuild takes place. We all know what Toronto went through during that time.

    As far as the 'rebuild' is concerned, correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard anyone from the Raps. brass claim that they are not in 'rebuild mode'. Not his exact words but BC has said that after spending a year making a culture change, creating some cap space and getting a good pick(Ross-not bad for 8), they are now in the next stage of the 'rebuild'. This means that the 'rebuild' is not complete only it's not in the initial stage.

    While I do agree that handing DD the extension has handicapped the team financially, I also believe that some flexibility is being created and we will hear about it shortly. In Lowry, Jose, Bargnani to name a few, we have some trade-able assets, so I have a good feeling about this.
    1st paragraph: The fact Toronto had NO success during Bosh's last 2 years in Toronto and then he left was the perfect opportunity to rebuild properly. Colangelo fought this tooth and nail only to succumb and buy in for less than a year.

    2nd paragraph: I really don't care about Colangelo's words. The guy's interviews are about as meaningful and worthwhile as a sack of poop (although part of that is keeping cards close to the chest). His actions speak volumes: he was ready to sign Nash, he traded away a lottery pick with playoff protections, he signed role players to large deals. That does not appear to be someone who is still in rebuild mode. The reality is he thought Bargnani was his star (so did I for the record) and built a team around his star - only the star is not a star.

    I hope your last paragraph is correct. Unfortunately we are not privy to the texts and phone calls and can only discuss what we currently see. But like I said, I hope you are right. I think another 3 drafts/2 seasons and this team could be ready for the big time - assuming they acquire picks and keep the cap space for 2015.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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