If this isn't a rebuild, what is it?

[hateslosing]

There is a lot here to respond to.

Who is talking getting the number one pick? Who is talking becoming the worst team in the league? I believe the conversation here is cash out veterans with any sort of value or cash out veterans with little value for veterans with even less value in exchange for prospects and picks.

Can you show me ED's defense? DeRozan is an average starter with a star contract. I agree Ross could be scary... he might also just be what he is. JV may be a franchise centre but what if he isn't?

Your third paragraph shows you did not get the point or understand the thread: who wants to trade away the young players currently on the roster? JV and TR are definitely keepers. DD's contract makes him a keeper same with Fields - desired or not. Acy looks like he can give 12 mins of hustle and energy each night. ED has his flaws right now but he is still cheap and making progress. Amir Johnson is a reserve big man every team would love to have.

The Raptors are playing their young guys big minutes and they should keep doing that. But instead of hoping this group of youth continues to develop and get better to all-star levels, why not get more youth and promising players that may actually have a chance at being an all-star. Most all-star talent in this league is known at a very early stage in their careers. Irving and Griffin are recent examples #1's who are all-stars by their second year. But there are a host of other players who become all stars early who were not #1 picks. The point is all-star talent tends to identify itself early. The more young guys you get, the more chance of hitting that lottery gold whether it is early lottery or mid first round. The one thing that Stefanski and Colangelo do exceptionally well is draft, so why not build to their strengths? Even in your post of maybes, possibilities, and ifs there is still no certainty when it comes to the talent currently on the roster. And, worst case scenario, lets say all these picks and prospects don't deliver the all-star and we continue to have a cast of TR's, DD's, ED's, AJ's, LF's, etc. then what? Well, that is when you can cash some assets (rookie contracts and picks) out to get that talent. Toronto is currently team filled with promising but not necessarily spectacular players, minimal draft picks, and overpaid role players. Overall they lack talent and financial flexibility - the worst combination possible!

OK so the message here is we have not yet found any gurenteed all stars so we should keep doing everything we can to amass young talent. Fair enough. So where are all of these guys going to get playing time to develop into all-stars? If we get a 1st overall guy who is an instant star, then great, but you said that isn't the aim here. So if we have a bunch of guys who may or may not be stars that we need to give minutes too, isn't that going to lead to none of them actually developping properly? All of these later picks who became stars, like Rondo for example, needed to get put into a starting roll to show that they were great. Then there is roster space, since I'm assuming that you want to keep some veterans fo the young guys to play with and learn from. How many more young potential all-stars can we add, who all need 24 minutes a game? I'm not saying you're wrong that we shouldn't add more good prospects, and maybe we'll get lucky and one of them will end up being awesome, but at some point you have to say enough is enough and start building to win instead of just collecting early to mid level draft picks.

I'm also not saying we are not rebuilding anymore which is the premis of this thread. I am saying that we have added all of the youth we should at one time and it's time to start seeing if there is something there.

Here is a news flash: 11 games with a fourth quarter lead and ending up losing (not to mention the games up by 20 and lost) is in fact a sign of a lack of talent. Great talent can find a way to overcome poor execution. Essentially your argument is if the Raptors don't turn over the ball down the stretch, run every set perfectly, and stop the other team from scoring, they will win. Well, yeah, no shit. But the problem is the really good teams (and most often the ones with the stars) lock it down on defense when it matters most and have a player who can create something from nothing. In case you have not noticed, the NBA is a stars league. The stars are promoted and shine when the game matters most. The Raptors have no one who can step up when a play breaks down or the defense becomes suffocating. Teams plan for DD and he disappears - and the Raptors broadcasters act as if this is a good thing! The defense collapses on the lanes and the Raps are forced to take jump shot after jump shot, why? Because no one - outside of Lowry - can create their own shot. The Raptors are 1-17 versus teams over .500 - that speaks volumes!

The Raptors are a jump shooting team, and I agree that it is due to having no one who can penetrate or consistently make their own shot. The thing is, why is a team that can't penetrate the 11th most efficient team in terms of offense and first over the last 20? I've read people saying that when teams lock down on us we can't get a shot off, and I think that's bull shit. We get away from our game plan, and we have guys jack up stupid shots, and that has nothing to do with the other team. I say it again, this is not a talent problem, it is a problem of guys losing focus down the stretch and playing hero ball in a system that is designed for team play. It's Alan Anderson taking 5 rediculous shots in overtime instead of moving the ball around until something opens up. The problem with us when we play good teams is that they don't lose focus, regardless if they are a superstar team or not, they execute their game plan with consistency. The Pacers don't have a superstar, Paul George, while an all-star, is not that much better than Derozan and is hardly a super elite guy, but they get it done by executing their offense late in games. They are disciplined and well coached, but they are not a star driven team.

Your post is everything that has gone on in Toronto for 7 years and I have been guilty of in the past as well: one big excuse after another. At some point promises and potential have to become something more than hot air.... and heaven knows there is no shortage of hot air rising from the ACC. Yes there is progress but there is hardly

The bottom line is the Raptors record is what they are. The "11 games leading in the 4th" argument is no different than the start of the year when the refrain was "It is only 11 games in to the season guys!" Their performance in extremely important games against Philly and Milwaukee - after starting the year 4-19 - are indicative of what they are: a lottery team (*with no pick!*) and a first round ceiling at best.

I'm not excusing anything. This team has enough talent to compete with any team in the league, they have shown that numerous times. They lose games because they aren't disciplined, which is a correctible coaching issue. I think they have a ceiling in the playoffs, and even still have a very small chance of getting in this year if they get hot again.

I hate to tell you but this kind of silly reactionism is not the cause for the lack of playoff appearances, it is the belief that everything is gumdrops and jelly beans in Raptorland and the team is on the path to success at worst and greatness at best.

Everything isn't gumdrops and jellybeans, but now is the time for getting good veterens to build around what we have. More picks and prospects will not make this team into a contender: finally getting something through a trade or free agency will. Lowry was a start and a step in the right direction. Now it's time to see what we can make out of this core. Maybe we'll fail and have to start again, but that isn't so different than what your suggesting we do now.

[Matt52]

There is a lot here to respond to.



OK so the message here is we have not yet found any gurenteed all stars so we should keep doing everything we can to amass young talent. Fair enough. So where are all of these guys going to get playing time to develop into all-stars? If we get a 1st overall guy who is an instant star, then great, but you said that isn't the aim here. So if we have a bunch of guys who may or may not be stars that we need to give minutes too, isn't that going to lead to none of them actually developping properly? All of these later picks who became stars, like Rondo for example, needed to get put into a starting roll to show that they were great. Then there is roster space, since I'm assuming that you want to keep some veterans fo the young guys to play with and learn from. How many more young potential all-stars can we add, who all need 24 minutes a game? I'm not saying you're wrong that we shouldn't add more good prospects, and maybe we'll get lucky and one of them will end up being awesome, but at some point you have to say enough is enough and start building to win instead of just collecting early to mid level draft picks.

I'm also not saying we are not rebuilding anymore which is the premis of this thread. I am saying that we have added all of the youth we should at one time and it's time to start seeing if there is something there.

The Raptors as is are a lottery team. In the quest for more picks plus their own (unfortunately not this year unless it goes top 3 which you never know) luck can and usually does lead to a top 3 pick.

Guys get minutes who work hard and produce. Nothing wrong with healthy competition. There are enough minutes to go around: cut DD back as he clearly hits a wall every season, do not play the MP/AA's of the world, Fields is a role player - 20 mins max, cut out the 2 PG lineups.

The Raptors have 5 young guys (ED, TR, DD, JV, QA), a young role players moving forward (LF), and 9 veterans. The Raps veterans should be 2-3 guys like JL3, Gray, AA - solid professionals, good character, min salary, hard workers - and a young veteran or two like Amir. That is it. Just because you are young doesn't make you of less character. Hard work and work ethic are traits you have or you don't - you don't need veterans to show that. You need veterans to show what it takes to survive and stay in the league.

Rookie contracts are going to be a valuable commodity moving forward. I don't think you can have too many as Houston has showed.

The Raptors are a jump shooting team, and I agree that it is due to having no one who can penetrate or consistently make their own shot. The thing is, why is a team that can't penetrate the 11th most efficient team in terms of offense and first over the last 20? I've read people saying that when teams lock down on us we can't get a shot off, and I think that's bull shit. We get away from our game plan, and we have guys jack up stupid shots, and that has nothing to do with the other team. I say it again, this is not a talent problem, it is a problem of guys losing focus down the stretch and playing hero ball in a system that is designed for team play. It's Alan Anderson taking 5 rediculous shots in overtime instead of moving the ball around until something opens up. The problem with us when we play good teams is that they don't lose focus, regardless if they are a superstar team or not, they execute their game plan with consistency. The Pacers don't have a superstar, Paul George, while an all-star, is not that much better than Derozan and is hardly a super elite guy, but they get it done by executing their offense late in games. They are disciplined and well coached, but they are not a star driven team.

Quality of the opponents have been weak (13 under .500 in last 20 games) and 12 at home.

Paul George is THAT much better than DD. He passes, defends, rebounds, shoots. George is also a year younger.

I'm not excusing anything. This team has enough talent to compete with any team in the league, they have shown that numerous times. They lose games because they aren't disciplined, which is a correctible coaching issue. I think they have a ceiling in the playoffs, and even still have a very small chance of getting in this year if they get hot again.

The Raptors competing with any team in the league is not the problem and for the record I agree with you on that. The problem is the Raps don't have enough talent to beat any team in the league. It might be semantics on my part but for the Raptors to beat the best of the best they need to play their best game while the really good team needs to have an off night. When we start comparing the best Raptors game versus the best (insert really good team here) game, well, then the problem is evident. Do not underestimate teams playing to the level of their competition.

Everything isn't gumdrops and jellybeans, but now is the time for getting good veterens to build around what we have. More picks and prospects will not make this team into a contender: finally getting something through a trade or free agency will. Lowry was a start and a step in the right direction. Now it's time to see what we can make out of this core. Maybe we'll fail and have to start again, but that isn't so different than what your suggesting we do now.

What assets do the Raptors have to get these veterans via trade? There is a reason the Raps are not a great team and other teams don't want the veterans off bad teams unless they are expiring.

What free agent is coming to Toronto at this point in time? (I am not one of those "no one will come here because it is Canada" btw). Steve Nash wouldn't even sign at this time because it is all about perceived chance to win and money (not in that order).

What cap space do the Raptors have at this time? As of now they have $58M on the books for next season and likely around $52M when options and amnesty factored in.


The final bold sentence is the problem. If it fails - and it likely will based on current path - it is another forced rebuild and wasted opportunity for acquiring more talent via draft/trade/free agency while TR and JV and anyone coming after are still on rookie deals. Now is not the time to start looking to win, 2 more seasons, 3 more drafts (13,14,15), do the rebuild RIGHT.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Colangelo has been doing the same thing over and over for years and the results are not changing.

[Matt52]

Here is my whole take in a very short sentence on the whole take other teams shit for prospects/picks and accumulation of young talent:

Raptors have 3 more seasons before extensions (and the restricted FA that goes along with it) kick in for TR and JV; it is a 3year window starting now.

[Sig]

I would ask @RaptorsMR how fans could possibly consider "another" rebuild, considering that there has never been a proper rebuild completed in the first place.

The fans were urging for a proper rebuild to be done immediately upon Bosh's departure, but it was delayed, then accelerated. I think this team needs to do "a" proper rebuild, not "another" one.


TOP 10 SIGNS YOUR TEAM IS NOT DOING A PROPER REBUILD

10. It only lasts 1 season; the season your new prized draft pick is playing overseas!

9. The 3 key holdovers on the roster, who all have significant weaknesses (talent/heart/age/contract status), are all still on the team nearly 3 years after the rebuild [should have] started (DeRozan, Bargnani, Calderon)!

8. One of those 3 key holdovers was rewarded with a huge contract extension, despite not proving he's worth it, less than a month into the season following the draft in which the #8 overall pick was used to select his replacement!

7. The key offseason signing heading into the 2nd season of the true rebuild was a gross overpayment for an unproven player coming off a disastrous season, who was signed less for what he brings to the table and more in half-baked attempt to block another team from trading for a player they had no business pursuing in the first place!

6. Despite having 3 PFs who are all capable of starting and multiple positions that require immediate upgrading, nothing proactive has been done to either clear the logjam at one position, or address the weaknesss at other positions; nothing has been legitimately done to address the glaring weakness at the SF position, which has been a black-hole of suckage since the last franchise player left town!

5. The rebuilding plan was accelerated, seemingly so that old vets and D-league castoffs can get sizeable chunks of playing time, rather than giving young players the opportunity to develop... all in a foolhearty attempt to make a highly improbable run at the 8th seed for the playoffs!

4. A future 1st round pick (not just any 1st round pick, but one that ties-up all future 1st round picks from being used as tradeable assets for up to six years) is traded for a shoot-first PG with a reputation for having a me-first attitude, to replace a veteran PG who's witnessed 3 other shoot-first/me-first PGs get run out of town!

3. In the 1st season of the true rebuild - a lockout shortened season with a new coach, no training camp and the #5 overall pick from the past draft playing overseas - the team used washed-up vets and D-league scrubs to scratch-and-claw their way to several extra 'character/culture building' victories, costing them a legitmate chance at a top-6 draft pick in a loaded draft!

2. The team makes signing a nearly washed-up 38-year old who's greatest benefit is to the team's marketing department, their #1 priority in only the 2nd offseason of the rebuild!

1. The "I don't know how to do a proper rebuild" GM is in charge of the alleged rebuild!!!

Ding ding ding!

[Sig]

It seems that everyone is upset at the state of this current Raptors team. Excellent, not long now until the man behind this gets the boot.

[hateslosing]

Guys get minutes who work hard and produce. Nothing wrong with healthy competition. There are enough minutes to go around: cut DD back as he clearly hits a wall every season, do not play the MP/AA's of the world, Fields is a role player - 20 mins max, cut out the 2 PG lineups.

The Raptors have 5 young guys (ED, TR, DD, JV, QA), a young role players moving forward (LF), and 9 veterans. The Raps veterans should be 2-3 guys like JL3, Gray, AA - solid professionals, good character, min salary, hard workers - and a young veteran or two like Amir. That is it. Just because you are young doesn't make you of less character. Hard work and work ethic are traits you have or you don't - you don't need veterans to show that. You need veterans to show what it takes to survive and stay in the league.

Rookie contracts are going to be a valuable commodity moving forward. I don't think you can have too many as Houston has showed.




Quality of the opponents have been weak (13 under .500 in last 20 games) and 12 at home.

Paul George is THAT much better than DD. He passes, defends, rebounds, shoots. George is also a year younger.



The Raptors competing with any team in the league is not the problem and for the record I agree with you on that. The problem is the Raps don't have enough talent to beat any team in the league. It might be semantics on my part but for the Raptors to beat the best of the best they need to play their best game while the really good team needs to have an off night. When we start comparing the best Raptors game versus the best (insert really good team here) game, well, then the problem is evident. Do not underestimate teams playing to the level of their competition.




What assets do the Raptors have to get these veterans via trade? There is a reason the Raps are not a great team and other teams don't want the veterans off bad teams unless they are expiring.

What free agent is coming to Toronto at this point in time? (I am not one of those "no one will come here because it is Canada" btw). Steve Nash wouldn't even sign at this time because it is all about perceived chance to win and money (not in that order).

What cap space do the Raptors have at this time? As of now they have $58M on the books for next season and likely around $52M when options and amnesty factored in.


The final bold sentence is the problem. If it fails - and it likely will based on current path - it is another forced rebuild and wasted opportunity for acquiring more talent via draft/trade/free agency while TR and JV and anyone coming after are still on rookie deals. Now is not the time to start looking to win, 2 more seasons, 3 more drafts (13,14,15), do the rebuild RIGHT.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Colangelo has been doing the same thing over and over for years and the results are not changing.

I still don't think you are going to have enough minutes to see what the guys are going to do, but hey, maybe it will work.

I like Paul George, but he is not an elite talent. He is an all star, but I'm not sure that he is the kind of guy you build around as your number one option.

As far as acquiring talent, you've got Andrea and at least one borderline all star point guard to move. If you can't turn that into a few good players, or even some prospects like you suggest, you aren't GMing right.

I would rather see what BC can do building a contender than rebuilding. He was once known for his wheeling and dealing, and I would much rather see him try do make this a playoff team for two or three years with the possibility of him failing and having someone else come blow it up rather than watch him continue to spin his wheels. I will add this, I would be fine with a strategy around acquiring more picks if someone new was the one in charge. In my mind BC played his hand by trading this years pick for Lowry and it's time for him to try to win or let someone else rebuild proper.

[ebrian]

I would rather see what BC can do building a contender than rebuilding. He was once known for his wheeling and dealing, and I would much rather see him try do make this a playoff team for two or three years with the possibility of him failing and having someone else come blow it up rather than watch him continue to spin his wheels. I will add this, I would be fine with a strategy around acquiring more picks if someone new was the one in charge. In my mind BC played his hand by trading this years pick for Lowry and it's time for him to try to win or let someone else rebuild proper.

What do you think he's been trying to do? Certainly not rebuilding. I haven't seen it. He's been telling everyone that he wants to rebuild but secretly trying to build a contender and failing miserably. Did any of the moves we saw this offseason look to you like rebuilding moves?

[footarez]

I would rather see what BC can do building a contender than rebuilding. He was once known for his wheeling and dealing, and I would much rather see him try do make this a playoff team for two or three years with the possibility of him failing and having someone else come blow it up rather than watch him continue to spin his wheels. I will add this, I would be fine with a strategy around acquiring more picks if someone new was the one in charge. In my mind BC played his hand by trading this years pick for Lowry and it's time for him to try to win or let someone else rebuild proper.

I think Colangelo is doing (trying to do ) that now. I guess in a couple of weeks we will know.If he makes a trade to acquire a player who can help us win now - great. And if we actually make the playoffs or some noise in the playoffs - even better. We don't have a pick anyway. But if he brings a bad player or a player who doesn't really help this team he must be let go.

[Nilanka]

Paul George, while an all-star, is not that much better than Derozan and is hardly a super elite guy

Wowzers. Paul George is a million times better than DeRozan in every facet of the game. And he's well on his way to becoming an elite guy.

A classic case of overvaluing the hometown heroes.

[Nilanka]

This team plus veterans does nothing to help us.

You need elite young talent (like Carter and McGrady) before you even entertain the idea of rounding out the roster with vets.

The "rebuilding" needs to continue until elite level talent is obtained (whether via trade, draft or free agency). Constructing a roster before that is just spinning wheels....something this franchise has been doing for 9 years.

[ebrian]

This team plus veterans does nothing to help us.

You need elite young talent (like Carter and McGrady) before you even entertain the idea of rounding out the roster with vets.

The "rebuilding" needs to continue until elite level talent is obtained (whether via trade, draft or free agency). Constructing a roster before that is just spinning wheels....something this franchise has been doing for 9 years.

I agree, except for the "needs to continue" part because I don't think it has even started. When will we actually start rebuilding? That's what I want to know. I think we should start right away but you look at the moves we've done this past year, after reading some of the posts of what we should be doing as a rebuilding team.. we haven't done any of that. I see no evidence of rebuilding. Do you?

[Nilanka]

I agree, except for the "needs to continue" part because I don't think it has even started. When will we actually start rebuilding? That's what I want to know. I think we should start right away but you look at the moves we've done this past year, after reading some of the posts of what we should be doing as a rebuilding team.. we haven't done any of that. I see no evidence of rebuilding. Do you?

Last year, I would've said "yes, we're definitely rebuilding". Acquiring Jonas and Ross were good indicators of that.

But chasing Nash, gambling on Fields, keeping Bargnani, etc. screams Colangelo had no intentions of properly rebuilding.

[slaw]

I would rather see what BC can do building a contender than rebuilding. He was once known for his wheeling and dealing, and I would much rather see him try do make this a playoff team for two or three years with the possibility of him failing and having someone else come blow it up rather than watch him continue to spin his wheels. I will add this, I would be fine with a strategy around acquiring more picks if someone new was the one in charge. In my mind BC played his hand by trading this years pick for Lowry and it's time for him to try to win or let someone else rebuild proper.

You saw BC try to build a contender. That was called 2006-2010. It was a total disaster that included two early first round playoff exits and one season above .500. And remember, BC started with: an all-star PF who is one of the most efficient big men in the history of the NBA, a #1 overall pick, and cap space.

Currently, he has: no all-stars, no first round pick and no cap space.

What more do you need to see?

[hateslosing]

I think Colangelo is doing (trying to do ) that now. I guess in a couple of weeks we will know.If he makes a trade to acquire a player who can help us win now - great. And if we actually make the playoffs or some noise in the playoffs - even better. We don't have a pick anyway. But if he brings a bad player or a player who doesn't really help this team he must be let go.

Agreed.

Wowzers. Paul George is a million times better than DeRozan in every facet of the game. And he's well on his way to becoming an elite guy.

A classic case of overvaluing the hometown heroes.

You could be right, I've only seen George play a handful of times. Still, he shoots a lower percentage than Demar and turns the ball over almost 3 times a game. He's probably a much better defender and rebounder, plus he shoots the 3 better, which are probably more important than the offens anyway. Maybe he is going to be a superstar but he strikes as more of a borderline guy, call him a rich man's DD.

What do you think he's been trying to do? Certainly not rebuilding. I haven't seen it. He's been telling everyone that he wants to rebuild but secretly trying to build a contender and failing miserably. Did any of the moves we saw this offseason look to you like rebuilding moves?

You saw BC try to build a contender. That was called 2006-2010. It was a total disaster that included two early first round playoff exits and one season above .500. And remember, BC started with: an all-star PF who is one of the most efficient big men in the history of the NBA, a #1 overall pick, and cap space.

Currently, he has: no all-stars, no first round pick and no cap space.

What more do you need to see?

I don't need to see anymore. He's trying to build around Bargs and I think he should try and finish what he started then get out of town. I think I didn't communicate my thought clearly: I don't want BC building this team from scratch again. He's failed twice. I want him to either pull out a miracle or have someone else come in and blow it up. Having BC build from scratch or around some new all star is a bad plan. The best solution is to fire BC and bring someone in immediately but I don't think that's going to happen.

[Sig]

Wowzers. Paul George is a million times better than DeRozan in every facet of the game. And he's well on his way to becoming an elite guy.

A classic case of overvaluing the hometown heroes.

^^^