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  • #16
    Is the talent level higher than last year? Yes, JV, Ross, Fields, and Lowry are certainly upgrades over the players they replaced.

    Do the Raptors have as much financial flexibility moving forward? No, the DeRozan and Fields contracts are too rich for my tastes.

    I believe the Raptors are moving in the right direction and it will be a series of small incremental gains for the next few years, not the big jump we had hoped.

    Comment


    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

      The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.
      I think you hit the nail on the head here. I said this in another post a while ago, but luck is the biggest and yet least discussed aspect of building a successful pro sports team (notice I said team and not organization). Cleveland took a big chance with the Baron Davis contract and pick, but it paid off for them. In contrast, the Raps have had terrible luck with the lottery, from moving down spots to losing a coin flip last year. They lucked out in the worst possible year to do so by winning the draft in 2006. Just look at this list of #1 choices from the last 11 drafts:

      2002 - Yao Ming
      2003 - LeBron James
      2004 - Dwight Howard
      2005 - Andrew Bogut (who even with his injuries is still more valuable than Bargs)
      2006 - Bargs
      2007 - Greg Oden (Durant chosen second)
      2008 - Derrick Rose
      2009 - Blake Griffin
      2010 - John Wall
      2011 - Kyrie Irving
      2012 - Anthony Davis

      Just look at that list. There is franchise-altering talent in the top spot every year with the exception of 2006 (Bargs), 2007 when Durant was chosen second, and 2005 when Chris Paul was taken 3rd (and Bogut, when healthy and on his game, is arguably a franchise-changing talent). On top of that there are guys like Wade peppered in there at lower spots. The Raps managed to secure some decent talent in that time, like Bosh at 4, but they've never really had an outstanding, home-run pick. So you know what I'm expecting? With no real franchise-changing star in this year's draft, the Raps are going to win it. Book it.

      But that's not the point.

      As Matt52 pointed out, sometimes you have to make your own luck. I look at Houston as a perfect example. They've been searching for a star for years, but never managed to land one in the draft. Much like the Raps, they had teams that competed (based on Morey's ability to find players that were undervalued), but the down side to that is that they never fully tanked. What they DID do is stockpile assets and jumped on the chance to land James Harden. And it wouldn't have mattered who they got, in the end they were going to get someone. Because they had a plan and they were pushing year after year to make it happen. And that's my point.

      I don't think BC has a plan.

      He might. But as far as I can tell, the moves he's made during his tenure scream 'throwing shit at a wall and hoping something sticks' rather than 'master plan'. Most damning is that he hasn't committed to either being terrible and loading up in the draft or to piecing together a team via trades by auctioning off youth and picks for latent. Instead he's done a little of each and nothing has really panned out. Granted, some of that is luck. But it seems to me that a lot of it is based around one thing: his clearly mistaken belief that in 2006 he landed his franchise player and that he wouldn't need another one going forward.

      Comment


      • #18
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

        The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.

        You comment on half-measures is the answer. The Raptors have not dared to be awful and they have not dared to be great.
        Good topic of discussion.

        I like where Cleveland is now. I compare them to the Raps because they were in similar situation when both Bosh and Lebron left.

        They have gone the route of the draft and they are imo one player (muhammad perhaps?) away from having a proper young core to build around. Kyrie is a star no question and Tristan, Zeller and Waiters will all grow with the team.

        The Raps have no elite talent and until they find a way to make that happen we will be stuck trying to accelerate a rebuild that never got fully underway.

        Hopefully a new GM will come in a see this and tear this team down immediately.

        I'm glad Colangelo's years of mismangement has become apparent to the fan base and what we really have as a team. The Raps are just not that good and have a low ceiling, which is evident by their record. Only a fool of a GM would be announcing an "accelerated rebuold" when he never built properly to begin with and the team has no all-star talent at the foundation. lol

        Comment


        • #19
          WhatWhat wrote: View Post
          We are neither building or rebuilding. There are only half-measures. We are the midpoint between the Bucks and Isiah's Knicks.
          Agreed. Many of us have been saying for years now that a big part of the problem has been management trying to have it both ways: field a team that can win immediately, which is comprised almost wholly of young players and bargain players. That's almost impossible.

          It's all been said before. They've wasted years being terrible and getting nowhere, so, how do you now sell a rebuild when that is what you were supposed to be doing in the first place? Again, said it before, it's why you fire Colangelo when Bosh left. They needed to start then cause it was never about 2 years, it was about 5 or 6 years as Colangelo threw away the first 2. Now, you're pushing 6-7 years.

          The whole thing is just awful.

          Comment


          • #20
            sleepz wrote: View Post
            Good topic of discussion.

            I like where Cleveland is now. I compare them to the Raps because they were in similar situation when both Bosh and Lebron left.

            They have gone the route of the draft and they are imo one player (muhammad perhaps?) away from having a proper young core to build around. Kyrie is a star no question and Tristan, Zeller and Waiters will all grow with the team.

            The Raps have no elite talent and until they find a way to make that happen we will be stuck trying to accelerate a rebuild that never got fully underway.

            Hopefully a new GM will come in a see this and tear this team down immediately.

            I'm glad Colangelo's years of mismangement has become apparent to the fan base and what we really have as a team. The Raps are just not that good and have a low ceiling, which is evident by their record. Only a fool of a GM would be announcing an "accelerated rebuold" when he never built properly to begin with and the team has no all-star talent at the foundation. lol
            I agree with this. Better to start all over again ASAP, rather than stall for a couple of years.

            Comment


            • #21
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              This tweet from @RaptorsMR last night got me thinking about a lot of things:

              1) Moving out of a rebuild is not done by simply saying, "OK, we are finishing our rebuild now" or "We are going to accelerate the process." Unfortunately, that is exactly what Colangelo and Co. have done leading in to this season. If that is in fact the case though, well, the Raptors are now just a shitty team.

              2) Like it or not the Raptors are still very much in a rebuild. The problem is the Raptors don't have very many assets to help the process outside of development and maturation of current players - they have no first round draft pick this season and they have limited to no financial flexibility without a major trade between now and trade deadline or amnestying Bargnani.

              3) What would acknowledgement of a rebuild actually look like? Calderon starting - been going on for years. DeRozan carrying the scoring load - been going on for years. Patch work at small forward - been going on for years. Frustration with Bargnani - been going on for years. Amir, a stiff, or a rookie starting at C - been going on for years. A point guard controversy/debate - been going on for years. All those things have been going on for years and are continuing so how can one assume the rebuild is complete?

              4) Despite the Raptors insistence they are not doing a rebuild, lets consider the veteran situation on this team:
              • Bargnani has missed half the last 2 seasons and is hardly a contributor to winning or success,
              • Kleiza has missed the better part of 3 years due to a terrible injury and has no future with this team,
              • Amir is what he is: a solid reserve big man who can start when needed but lack of focus leads to inconsistencies,
              • Aaron Gray barely plays and is deep depth off the bench,
              • John Lucas is the Aaron Gray of PGs,
              • Pietrus is a shell of his former self and no longer plays,
              • Anderson is a 30 year old journeyman who is a solid 5th wing off the bench but the Raptors use as a clutch time performer which is great if you want to live and die by the D-Leaguer,
              • Calderon is an UFA with no guarantee to stay and continues to start leading the team nowhere,
              • Lowry is a shell of his former self and despite his immense talent he looks to be an utter failure in Toronto,
              • DeRozan is the youngest veteran and an NBA starter - nothing more, nothing less - getting paid star money starting next season. Like many NBA players he has incredible games followed by bad games. The difference between a star and starter is consistency.


              Now ask yourself, which of those veterans are going to blaze a trail to the playoffs? Which of those veterans are capable of making an all-star game? Which of those veterans are anything more than role players - admittedly some very good role players but role players nonetheless? Which of those players are absolute keepers moving forward?

              I don't know about you but the answer I keep getting is "none" outside of Lowry who could be an all-star in my opinion but has shown even he isn't an absolute keeper.

              This of course leaves ED, TR, JV, QA, DD, and LF as players under 25 with 4 years or less NBA experience plus add in Amir and you have a nice nucleus that is not going to win you many games but are all solid pieces should REAL talent find its way in to the locker room.

              5) Of the 10 veterans listed in 4), only 5 actually play at this time.... yet the team is not rebuilding.... hmmm.

              6) The roster continues to have about 40% turnover each season..... yet no rebuild..... hmmmmm.

              6) So wrapping up, the best thing Toronto can do is accept the reality they are still very much in a rebuild. The Raptors aren't good and a lack of talent continues to be the problem in getting the team out of a state of rebuilding and into a state of competing.

              I agree with @RaptorsMR that fans don't want another rebuild but it is not about having another rebuild now - the Raptors have never left rebuilding in the the first place and it is already a given. Fans don't want another forced rebuild in 2-3 seasons - that is the issue.

              Now is the time to fully embrace rebuilding because the team is certainly not competing with the teams over .500. This team was built around Bargnani and the idea Andrea was a star - and that plan was a failure. The Raptors already have a head start in continuing to rebuild because Ross and JV have shown they are legit NBA talent which is more than most draft picks. The only thing Steffi and Bryan seem to do well is draft - so why not build to your strength?

              Do anything and everything possible to accumulate 2013 and 2014 draft picks and discarded young players (Derrick Williams, Alec Burks, etc.) who still have potential. In exchange, take on the worst of the worst contracts or if need be part with a talented player such as Lowry or trade DeRozan. Plan for big cap space in the summer of 2015 when Ross and JV are in final year of rookie deals and Fields and Amir have just come off the books.

              Now is the time to create an environment where you can get your own star(s) by:
              1) drafting him/them,
              2) acquiring assets to trade for him/them,
              3) making a team attractive enough to entice a free agent in a couple of seasons.



              Play hard, play to win, play to develop and grow. But for the love all that is sacred and pure, enough of this half-assed bullsh!t Raptors fans have been forced to claim is the path to success - it is not. This path leads to mediocrity and forced rebuilding shortly down the road. **End rant**
              Despite BC'S denial there is a lack of talent. He is ultimately responsible. If he fails to improve the talent level by trade deadline then he needs to be fired.

              Comment


              • #22
                NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                Jonas is our franchise player boys


                Maybe but how long too wait to find out? It took most of us 6 years to figure out that AB is not a star.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I don't see Jonas being more than a Tyson Chandler type. A very good player, and one who could help you win a championship, but not a "franchise player" who deserves building around.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I think this is precisely why I had my doubts about this particular team from the very start.

                    I saw the patterns that things hadn't changed. Let's just put aside the actual abilities of each player mentioned and just focus on a general "glazed eyes" overview of what transpired this past summer.

                    Things you don't do if you're serious about rebuilding:
                    - you do not offer a player who is average at his position a star-like contract (Derozan)
                    - you especially don't do this before you even have a chance to evaluate if he's worth that amount
                    - you don't trade away a first round draft pick for a point guard (Lowry) when you're already paying (a lot) for another (Calderon)
                    - you don't think for a second about pursuing a 38 year-old former all star when you won 30% of your games the year before
                    - you don't overbid yourself and overpay players who have no business making the kind of money you're offering (Fields)
                    - you don't keep building around a guy (Bargnani) when he has taken you nowhere over the past 4-5 years

                    To me, the drafting of Jonas was a clear cut signal to management and ownership that we were entering not only a rebuilding phase but one that would take 3-5 years. Firstly big men take awhile. Secondly, European game translation sometimes takes awhile. Thirdly it was widely considered a weak draft. Finally, we had to wait a year for development to start.

                    So any moves made contrary to what should be done when you're looking at a 3-4 year window is a potential sabotage, and you look at the above list and it's clear that they never had any intention to follow through. So either we're talking about a guy who has trouble committing to a plan, or he just has no plan. He's never looking at the big picture.

                    You can call it accelerated rebuilding, but I think of it as the slowest possible way to rebuild because you keep sabotaging yourself time and time again. He needs to learn to stick with the big picture vision. This means acquire draft picks, trade expiring contracts, staying on the low side of cap space when possible so that he can be opportunistic when a team is desperate to unload or in the long run, when there's an opportunity to sign a big name to complete the puzzle.
                    your pal,
                    ebrian

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      This tweet from @RaptorsMR last night got me thinking about a lot of things:

                      1) Moving out of a rebuild is not done by simply saying, "OK, we are finishing our rebuild now" or "We are going to accelerate the process." Unfortunately, that is exactly what Colangelo and Co. have done leading in to this season. If that is in fact the case though, well, the Raptors are now just a shitty team.

                      2) Like it or not the Raptors are still very much in a rebuild. The problem is the Raptors don't have very many assets to help the process outside of development and maturation of current players - they have no first round draft pick this season and they have limited to no financial flexibility without a major trade between now and trade deadline or amnestying Bargnani.

                      3) What would acknowledgement of a rebuild actually look like? Calderon starting - been going on for years. DeRozan carrying the scoring load - been going on for years. Patch work at small forward - been going on for years. Frustration with Bargnani - been going on for years. Amir, a stiff, or a rookie starting at C - been going on for years. A point guard controversy/debate - been going on for years. All those things have been going on for years and are continuing so how can one assume the rebuild is complete?

                      4) Despite the Raptors insistence they are not doing a rebuild, lets consider the veteran situation on this team:
                      • Bargnani has missed half the last 2 seasons and is hardly a contributor to winning or success,
                      • Kleiza has missed the better part of 3 years due to a terrible injury and has no future with this team,
                      • Amir is what he is: a solid reserve big man who can start when needed but lack of focus leads to inconsistencies,
                      • Aaron Gray barely plays and is deep depth off the bench,
                      • John Lucas is the Aaron Gray of PGs,
                      • Pietrus is a shell of his former self and no longer plays,
                      • Anderson is a 30 year old journeyman who is a solid 5th wing off the bench but the Raptors use as a clutch time performer which is great if you want to live and die by the D-Leaguer,
                      • Calderon is an UFA with no guarantee to stay and continues to start leading the team nowhere,
                      • Lowry is a shell of his former self and despite his immense talent he looks to be an utter failure in Toronto,
                      • DeRozan is the youngest veteran and an NBA starter - nothing more, nothing less - getting paid star money starting next season. Like many NBA players he has incredible games followed by bad games. The difference between a star and starter is consistency.


                      Now ask yourself, which of those veterans are going to blaze a trail to the playoffs? Which of those veterans are capable of making an all-star game? Which of those veterans are anything more than role players - admittedly some very good role players but role players nonetheless? Which of those players are absolute keepers moving forward?

                      I don't know about you but the answer I keep getting is "none" outside of Lowry who could be an all-star in my opinion but has shown even he isn't an absolute keeper.

                      This of course leaves ED, TR, JV, QA, DD, and LF as players under 25 with 4 years or less NBA experience plus add in Amir and you have a nice nucleus that is not going to win you many games but are all solid pieces should REAL talent find its way in to the locker room.

                      5) Of the 10 veterans listed in 4), only 5 actually play at this time.... yet the team is not rebuilding.... hmmm.

                      6) The roster continues to have about 40% turnover each season..... yet no rebuild..... hmmmmm.

                      6) So wrapping up, the best thing Toronto can do is accept the reality they are still very much in a rebuild. The Raptors aren't good and a lack of talent continues to be the problem in getting the team out of a state of rebuilding and into a state of competing.

                      I agree with @RaptorsMR that fans don't want another rebuild but it is not about having another rebuild now - the Raptors have never left rebuilding in the the first place and it is already a given. Fans don't want another forced rebuild in 2-3 seasons - that is the issue.

                      Now is the time to fully embrace rebuilding because the team is certainly not competing with the teams over .500. This team was built around Bargnani and the idea Andrea was a star - and that plan was a failure. The Raptors already have a head start in continuing to rebuild because Ross and JV have shown they are legit NBA talent which is more than most draft picks. The only thing Steffi and Bryan seem to do well is draft - so why not build to your strength?

                      Do anything and everything possible to accumulate 2013 and 2014 draft picks and discarded young players (Derrick Williams, Alec Burks, etc.) who still have potential. In exchange, take on the worst of the worst contracts or if need be part with a talented player such as Lowry or trade DeRozan. Plan for big cap space in the summer of 2015 when Ross and JV are in final year of rookie deals and Fields and Amir have just come off the books.

                      Now is the time to create an environment where you can get your own star(s) by:
                      1) drafting him/them,
                      2) acquiring assets to trade for him/them,
                      3) making a team attractive enough to entice a free agent in a couple of seasons.



                      Play hard, play to win, play to develop and grow. But for the love all that is sacred and pure, enough of this half-assed bullsh!t Raptors fans have been forced to claim is the path to success - it is not. This path leads to mediocrity and forced rebuilding shortly down the road. **End rant**


                      Whether or not the team is rebuilding depends not so much on where we are as where we're going.
                      You can't look at the team, and its lack of potential or veteran talent, and say, therefore we are still rebuilding.
                      This is only evidence that we should be rebuilding, not whether are rebuilding.

                      The most recent half assed rebuild started when Bosh Left for Miami and ended when:
                      - Colangelo traded away our first round draft pick for a veteran pg
                      - Colangelo blew all our cap space signing Fields and extending Derozan
                      These moves clearly show that our front office (for better or worse) decided the time to win was now, rather than accumulating more young talent.
                      So the Raptors are not currently "rebuilding", nor are they "winning now". Instead, the Raptors are in the same perpetual limbo that they always find themselves in.
                      So you are correct that nothing has changed really over the last few years. I would just argue that this is no longer a rebuild, but a failed attempt to win now.... which will likely necessitate another rebuild (of the half-assed variety no doubt)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        pcrombeen wrote: View Post
                        Whether or not the team is rebuilding depends not so much on where we are as where we're going.
                        You can't look at the team, and its lack of potential or veteran talent, and say, therefore we are still rebuilding.
                        This is only evidence that we should be rebuilding, not whether are rebuilding.

                        The most recent half assed rebuild started when Bosh Left for Miami and ended when:
                        - Colangelo traded away our first round draft pick for a veteran pg
                        - Colangelo blew all our cap space signing Fields and extending Derozan
                        These moves clearly show that our front office (for better or worse) decided the time to win was now, rather than accumulating more young talent.
                        So the Raptors are not currently "rebuilding", nor are they "winning now". Instead, the Raptors are in the same perpetual limbo that they always find themselves in.
                        So you are correct that nothing has changed really over the last few years. I would just argue that this is no longer a rebuild, but a failed attempt to win now.... which will likely necessitate another rebuild (of the half-assed variety no doubt)
                        I agree with your post.

                        My point is we are not competing and due to lack of assets we certainly aren't rebuilding - right now. I would look at the process of team evolution for the majority of teams to be:
                        tear down, rebuild, compete, contend, rinse and repeat

                        @RaptorsMR says fans couldn't take another rebuild. I agree with him - in 2-3 seasons when one will be forced upon the franchise unless JV and Ross become All-Stars.

                        The end result of your take and mine is the same, I believe: stop the half-assed rebuilds and turn back on this path the team currently finds itself traveling. It leads nowhere good.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          I agree with your post.

                          My point is we are not competing and due to lack of assets we certainly aren't rebuilding - right now. I would look at the process of team evolution for the majority of teams to be:
                          tear down, rebuild, compete, contend, rinse and repeat

                          @RaptorsMR says fans couldn't take another rebuild. I agree with him - in 2-3 seasons when one will be forced upon the franchise unless JV and Ross become All-Stars.

                          The end result of your take and mine is the same, I believe: stop the half-assed rebuilds and turn back on this path the team currently finds itself traveling. It leads nowhere good.
                          I wonder what family gatherings are like for the Colangelo's. What does Jerry say when he looks at his son?

                          J: "Bry.. pass me the gravy."
                          B:
                          J: "So.. rebuilding again? How's that going?"
                          B: "Good, it's going good."
                          J: "Seriously though, when are you going to start?"
                          B: "What do you mean?"
                          J: "DeRozan? Really? Landry Fields?"
                          B: "I..."
                          J: "You do understand what that means, right? To rebuild?"
                          B: "Yes, I...um.. Jonas, and Ross."
                          J: "..and Lowry. Right. I mean, you understand the concept of rebuilding, correct?"
                          B: "Sir.. I.. 13 games. And Nash."
                          J: "Just know, that no matter what, I still love you."
                          B: "...."
                          your pal,
                          ebrian

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ebrian wrote: View Post
                            I think this is precisely why I had my doubts about this particular team from the very start.

                            I saw the patterns that things hadn't changed. Let's just put aside the actual abilities of each player mentioned and just focus on a general "glazed eyes" overview of what transpired this past summer.

                            Things you don't do if you're serious about rebuilding:
                            - you do not offer a player who is average at his position a star-like contract (Derozan)
                            - you especially don't do this before you even have a chance to evaluate if he's worth that amount
                            - you don't trade away a first round draft pick for a point guard (Lowry) when you're already paying (a lot) for another (Calderon)
                            - you don't think for a second about pursuing a 38 year-old former all star when you won 30% of your games the year before
                            - you don't overbid yourself and overpay players who have no business making the kind of money you're offering (Fields)
                            - you don't keep building around a guy (Bargnani) when he has taken you nowhere over the past 4-5 years

                            To me, the drafting of Jonas was a clear cut signal to management and ownership that we were entering not only a rebuilding phase but one that would take 3-5 years. Firstly big men take awhile. Secondly, European game translation sometimes takes awhile. Thirdly it was widely considered a weak draft. Finally, we had to wait a year for development to start.

                            So any moves made contrary to what should be done when you're looking at a 3-4 year window is a potential sabotage, and you look at the above list and it's clear that they never had any intention to follow through. So either we're talking about a guy who has trouble committing to a plan, or he just has no plan. He's never looking at the big picture.

                            You can call it accelerated rebuilding, but I think of it as the slowest possible way to rebuild because you keep sabotaging yourself time and time again. He needs to learn to stick with the big picture vision. This means acquire draft picks, trade expiring contracts, staying on the low side of cap space when possible so that he can be opportunistic when a team is desperate to unload or in the long run, when there's an opportunity to sign a big name to complete the puzzle.
                            I don't agree with the bolded. Drafting Jonas was a gimme especially given the draft class and who was left. Don't get me wrong, there were definetely other options available to the team, but I don't think drafting Jonas indicated they were rebuilding.

                            Especially considering what they did just before (sign Casey) and the way the referred to Jonas (a Tyson Chandler) and Bargnani (comparing him to Dirk) - all this right off Dallas championship run.

                            The reaction by this organization to drafting Jonas was a sign, to me anyways, the rebuild had ended and they just had to wait out the year. And to go along with what pcrombeen and others was said, it was half assed. A retool, never a rebuild.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Nilanka wrote: View Post
                              I don't see Jonas being more than a Tyson Chandler type. A very good player, and one who could help you win a championship, but not a "franchise player" who deserves building around.
                              You're in for a huge surprise then

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Craiger wrote: View Post
                                I don't agree with the bolded. Drafting Jonas was a gimme especially given the draft class and who was left. Don't get me wrong, there were definetely other options available to the team, but I don't think drafting Jonas indicated they were rebuilding.

                                Especially considering what they did just before (sign Casey) and the way the referred to Jonas (a Tyson Chandler) and Bargnani (comparing him to Dirk) - all this right off Dallas championship run.

                                The reaction by this organization to drafting Jonas was a sign, to me anyways, the rebuild had ended and they just had to wait out the year. And to go along with what pcrombeen and others was said, it was half assed. A retool, never a rebuild.
                                The reaction to me was that they didn't know what they were doing. If you expect Jonas to join the NBA this year and become a NBA starter caliber immediately, you must be extremely disappointed. He's at least 2-3 years away from that.

                                Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say..

                                If this organization thought that, then they should all be fired.
                                Last edited by ebrian; Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:52 PM.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

                                Comment

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