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  • #31
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree with your post.

    My point is we are not competing and due to lack of assets we certainly aren't rebuilding - right now. I would look at the process of team evolution for the majority of teams to be:
    tear down, rebuild, compete, contend, rinse and repeat

    @RaptorsMR says fans couldn't take another rebuild. I agree with him - in 2-3 seasons when one will be forced upon the franchise unless JV and Ross become All-Stars.

    The end result of your take and mine is the same, I believe: stop the half-assed rebuilds and turn back on this path the team currently finds itself traveling. It leads nowhere good.
    I would ask @RaptorsMR how fans could possibly consider "another" rebuild, considering that there has never been a proper rebuild completed in the first place.

    The fans were urging for a proper rebuild to be done immediately upon Bosh's departure, but it was delayed, then accelerated. I think this team needs to do "a" proper rebuild, not "another" one.


    TOP 10 SIGNS YOUR TEAM IS NOT DOING A PROPER REBUILD

    10. It only lasts 1 season; the season your new prized draft pick is playing overseas!

    9. The 3 key holdovers on the roster, who all have significant weaknesses (talent/heart/age/contract status), are all still on the team nearly 3 years after the rebuild [should have] started (DeRozan, Bargnani, Calderon)!

    8. One of those 3 key holdovers was rewarded with a huge contract extension, despite not proving he's worth it, less than a month into the season following the draft in which the #8 overall pick was used to select his replacement!

    7. The key offseason signing heading into the 2nd season of the true rebuild was a gross overpayment for an unproven player coming off a disastrous season, who was signed less for what he brings to the table and more in half-baked attempt to block another team from trading for a player they had no business pursuing in the first place!

    6. Despite having 3 PFs who are all capable of starting and multiple positions that require immediate upgrading, nothing proactive has been done to either clear the logjam at one position, or address the weaknesss at other positions; nothing has been legitimately done to address the glaring weakness at the SF position, which has been a black-hole of suckage since the last franchise player left town!

    5. The rebuilding plan was accelerated, seemingly so that old vets and D-league castoffs can get sizeable chunks of playing time, rather than giving young players the opportunity to develop... all in a foolhearty attempt to make a highly improbable run at the 8th seed for the playoffs!

    4. A future 1st round pick (not just any 1st round pick, but one that ties-up all future 1st round picks from being used as tradeable assets for up to six years) is traded for a shoot-first PG with a reputation for having a me-first attitude, to replace a veteran PG who's witnessed 3 other shoot-first/me-first PGs get run out of town!

    3. In the 1st season of the true rebuild - a lockout shortened season with a new coach, no training camp and the #5 overall pick from the past draft playing overseas - the team used washed-up vets and D-league scrubs to scratch-and-claw their way to several extra 'character/culture building' victories, costing them a legitmate chance at a top-6 draft pick in a loaded draft!

    2. The team makes signing a nearly washed-up 38-year old who's greatest benefit is to the team's marketing department, their #1 priority in only the 2nd offseason of the rebuild!

    1. The "I don't know how to do a proper rebuild" GM is in charge of the alleged rebuild!!!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:57 PM.

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    • #32
      Craiger wrote: View Post
      I don't agree with the bolded. Drafting Jonas was a gimme especially given the draft class and who was left. Don't get me wrong, there were definetely other options available to the team, but I don't think drafting Jonas indicated they were rebuilding.

      Especially considering what they did just before (sign Casey) and the way the referred to Jonas (a Tyson Chandler) and Bargnani (comparing him to Dirk) - all this right off Dallas championship run.

      The reaction by this organization to drafting Jonas was a sign, to me anyways, the rebuild had ended and they just had to wait out the year. And to go along with what pcrombeen and others was said, it was half assed. A retool, never a rebuild.
      Let me put it to you another way -- Orlando Magic drafted Dwight Howard and they weren't finished rebuilding yet.

      If Toronto management thought we were finished with the rebuild after drafting Jonas, then they should all be fired. Immediately.
      your pal,
      ebrian

      Comment


      • #33
        ebrian wrote: View Post
        Let me put it to you another way -- Orlando Magic drafted Dwight Howard and they weren't finished rebuilding yet.

        If Toronto management thought we were finished with the rebuild after drafting Jonas, then they should all be fired. Immediately.
        They were going to add or change some peices ofcourse, but the rebuild was done. They had their core (bargnani, val, demar). The actions they took after was more or less support this (Chasing Nash, Lowry, Ross drafted for need - and, as has come out since, trying to move that pick).

        Non-core players come and go. Some are better than others, but they are generally speaking expendable. But its a change to that core group that really constitutes a rebuild (to me anyways), that never really happened except for adding Jonas. Thats why I always see this as a retooling, not a rebuild.

        Comment


        • #34
          ebrian wrote: View Post
          i wonder what family gatherings are like for the colangelo's. What does jerry say when he looks at his son?

          J: "bry.. Pass me the gravy."
          b:
          j: "so.. Rebuilding again? How's that going?"
          b: "good, it's going good."
          j: "seriously though, when are you going to start?"
          b: "what do you mean?"
          j: "derozan? Really? Landry fields?"
          b: "i..."
          j: "you do understand what that means, right? To rebuild?"
          b: "yes, i...um.. Jonas, and ross."
          j: "..and lowry. Right. I mean, you understand the concept of rebuilding, correct?"
          b: "sir.. I.. 13 games. And nash."
          j: "just know, that no matter what, i still love you."
          b: "...."
          lol!!!!

          Comment


          • #35
            I'm a little confused. There is a lot of this idea that acquiring a superstar is the only way to get better. Guess what folks, unless the Raptors manage to somehow lose 70 ish games in a season, there is no superhero coming to save us in the draft. All you are going to get is guys like Ross and DeRozan who may have a chance at being special. And you know what else: getting that top pick doesn't neccessarily guarentee success (ehem Washington).

            We have talent, Ed Davis is quickly becoming a top ten power forward who is doing well in all three facets of the game: rebounding, scoring, and defence. Demar Derozan, despite going through a rough patch right now, is a pretty good second or third option on any team and is playing better defense this year then he has in the past. Terrance Ross looks like he could be very scary, especially if he gets some consistency to that shot, and Jonas has franchise center written all over him.

            You guys keep talking about getting a whole bunch of picks and getting a bunch of young talent to build around: news flash, that's what we have right now. This is the time to try to pick up some veterans and try to build something, not trade away the young talent we've managed to build up in order to get different young talent 4 years down the road.

            Another point: this team is pretty good. Since Bargs went down we lead the league in offensive efficiency. See the CNNSI stats thread. We have had 11 games -11!!! - where we held a lead in the fourth and lost it. That isn't lack of talent, that's poor execution and having young players who are nervous and don't have the stage presence to at this point in their careers to put us over the top. If we win 6 of those 11 this team is 0.500 and in the playoffs and we are not having this conversation. It's this king of silly reactionism that leads to teams never getting out of the lottery.
            "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

            -Churchill

            Comment


            • #36
              hateslosing wrote: View Post
              I'm a little confused. There is a lot of this idea that acquiring a superstar is the only way to get better. Guess what folks, unless the Raptors manage to somehow lose 70 ish games in a season, there is no superhero coming to save us in the draft. All you are going to get is guys like Ross and DeRozan who may have a chance at being special. And you know what else: getting that top pick doesn't neccessarily guarentee success (ehem Washington).

              We have talent, Ed Davis is quickly becoming a top ten power forward who is doing well in all three facets of the game: rebounding, scoring, and defence. Demar Derozan, despite going through a rough patch right now, is a pretty good second or third option on any team and is playing better defense this year then he has in the past. Terrance Ross looks like he could be very scary, especially if he gets some consistency to that shot, and Jonas has franchise center written all over him.

              You guys keep talking about getting a whole bunch of picks and getting a bunch of young talent to build around: news flash, that's what we have right now. This is the time to try to pick up some veterans and try to build something, not trade away the young talent we've managed to build up in order to get different young talent 4 years down the road.

              Another point: this team is pretty good. Since Bargs went down we lead the league in offensive efficiency. See the CNNSI stats thread. We have had 11 games -11!!! - where we held a lead in the fourth and lost it. That isn't lack of talent, that's poor execution and having young players who are nervous and don't have the stage presence to at this point in their careers to put us over the top. If we win 6 of those 11 this team is 0.500 and in the playoffs and we are not having this conversation. It's this king of silly reactionism that leads to teams never getting out of the lottery.
              I don't think anyone is questioning that this team could get better without a superstar. The problem is thats not getting you far. And even the teams that are more than first round playoff fodder (ie. rarely do more than lose in the 2nd round instead) that don't have a superstar, are extremely well built teams with numerous (potential) all-stars

              And yes this team has a few young players that were picks - but nobody has shown they are even remotely close to special. Just good or pretty good. Not Lebrons or Pauls, or even Currys or Georges. (except perhaps Jonas)

              The bolded part I couldn't disagree with more. Whats happened is completely a lack of talent. Top tier, top notch, all-star, superstar, star, stud.... whatever names one wants to give.... talent. There is more quality players on this team than a bunch of teams, and thats why the Raps beat the bad teams. But it completely lacks that high end talent, and thats why they can't beat the good teams.

              Edit: should have added. Toronto isn't getting that talent without the draft or the assets that are picks. And the best chance to get that level of talent is with a high pick.
              Last edited by Craiger; Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:36 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Craiger wrote: View Post
                I don't think anyone is questioning that this team could get better without a superstar. The problem is thats not getting you far. And even the teams that are more than first round playoff fodder (ie. rarely do more than lose in the 2nd round instead) that don't have a superstar, are extremely well built teams with numerous (potential) all-stars

                And yes this team has a few young players that were picks - but nobody has shown they are even remotely close to special. Just good or pretty good. Not Lebrons or Pauls, or even Currys or Georges. (except perhaps Jonas)

                The bolded part I couldn't disagree with more. Whats happened is completely a lack of talent. Top tier, top notch, all-star, superstar, star, stud.... whatever names one wants to give.... talent. There is more quality players on this team than a bunch of teams, and thats why the Raps beat the bad teams. But it completely lacks that high end talent, and thats why they can't beat the good teams.

                Edit: should have added. Toronto isn't getting that talent without the draft or the assets that are picks. And the best chance to get that level of talent is with a high pick.
                A few things here. First that nobody they have is close to special: Ed Davis has all star potential. He's averaging 14 and 8 in January and you can see the improvent he's made offensively since he became a starter. He's also a pretty good defender and a very good athlete. he's only 23 and once he gets his man muscles he's going to be a very toungh cover. I'd also say that Jose and Lowry are both borderline all stars.

                If the standard is Lebron or Paul, we are in for a long wait, because those guys are generational talents.

                The idea that high end talent, which I take to mean a super duper star, is needed to beat good teams down the stretch is a myth. You need good execution and you need to hustle on D. These are things that come from buying in and from experience. Giving up an offensive rebound off a free throw in the last two minutes has nothing to do with a lack of talent, it is about a lack of focus. Taking long jumpers 5 seconds into the shot clock isa problem with guys not buying in enough. Now you can argue that focus can't be learned, but I think it comes with experience. Is it nice to have Lebron James to execute for you? Absolutely, but it's not necesary. I'm not talking about game winning shots here, those are mostly luck, I'm talking about solid play down the stretch.
                "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                -Churchill

                Comment


                • #38
                  hateslosing wrote: View Post
                  I'm a little confused. There is a lot of this idea that acquiring a superstar is the only way to get better. Guess what folks, unless the Raptors manage to somehow lose 70 ish games in a season, there is no superhero coming to save us in the draft. All you are going to get is guys like Ross and DeRozan who may have a chance at being special. And you know what else: getting that top pick doesn't neccessarily guarentee success (ehem Washington).

                  We have talent, Ed Davis is quickly becoming a top ten power forward who is doing well in all three facets of the game: rebounding, scoring, and defence. Demar Derozan, despite going through a rough patch right now, is a pretty good second or third option on any team and is playing better defense this year then he has in the past. Terrance Ross looks like he could be very scary, especially if he gets some consistency to that shot, and Jonas has franchise center written all over him.

                  You guys keep talking about getting a whole bunch of picks and getting a bunch of young talent to build around: news flash, that's what we have right now. This is the time to try to pick up some veterans and try to build something, not trade away the young talent we've managed to build up in order to get different young talent 4 years down the road.

                  Another point: this team is pretty good. Since Bargs went down we lead the league in offensive efficiency. See the CNNSI stats thread. We have had 11 games -11!!! - where we held a lead in the fourth and lost it. That isn't lack of talent, that's poor execution and having young players who are nervous and don't have the stage presence to at this point in their careers to put us over the top. If we win 6 of those 11 this team is 0.500 and in the playoffs and we are not having this conversation. It's this king of silly reactionism that leads to teams never getting out of the lottery.
                  Who is talking getting the number one pick? Who is talking becoming the worst team in the league? I believe the conversation here is cash out veterans with any sort of value or cash out veterans with little value for veterans with even less value in exchange for prospects and picks.

                  Can you show me ED's defense? DeRozan is an average starter with a star contract. I agree Ross could be scary... he might also just be what he is. JV may be a franchise centre but what if he isn't?

                  Your third paragraph shows you did not get the point or understand the thread: who wants to trade away the young players currently on the roster? JV and TR are definitely keepers. DD's contract makes him a keeper same with Fields - desired or not. Acy looks like he can give 12 mins of hustle and energy each night. ED has his flaws right now but he is still cheap and making progress. Amir Johnson is a reserve big man every team would love to have.

                  The Raptors are playing their young guys big minutes and they should keep doing that. But instead of hoping this group of youth continues to develop and get better to all-star levels, why not get more youth and promising players that may actually have a chance at being an all-star. Most all-star talent in this league is known at a very early stage in their careers. Irving and Griffin are recent examples #1's who are all-stars by their second year. But there are a host of other players who become all stars early who were not #1 picks. The point is all-star talent tends to identify itself early. The more young guys you get, the more chance of hitting that lottery gold whether it is early lottery or mid first round. The one thing that Stefanski and Colangelo do exceptionally well is draft, so why not build to their strengths? Even in your post of maybes, possibilities, and ifs there is still no certainty when it comes to the talent currently on the roster. And, worst case scenario, lets say all these picks and prospects don't deliver the all-star and we continue to have a cast of TR's, DD's, ED's, AJ's, LF's, etc. then what? Well, that is when you can cash some assets (rookie contracts and picks) out to get that talent. Toronto is currently team filled with promising but not necessarily spectacular players, minimal draft picks, and overpaid role players. Overall they lack talent and financial flexibility - the worst combination possible!

                  Here is a news flash: 11 games with a fourth quarter lead and ending up losing (not to mention the games up by 20 and lost) is in fact a sign of a lack of talent. Great talent can find a way to overcome poor execution. Essentially your argument is if the Raptors don't turn over the ball down the stretch, run every set perfectly, and stop the other team from scoring, they will win. Well, yeah, no shit. But the problem is the really good teams (and most often the ones with the stars) lock it down on defense when it matters most and have a player who can create something from nothing. In case you have not noticed, the NBA is a stars league. The stars are promoted and shine when the game matters most. The Raptors have no one who can step up when a play breaks down or the defense becomes suffocating. Teams plan for DD and he disappears - and the Raptors broadcasters act as if this is a good thing! The defense collapses on the lanes and the Raps are forced to take jump shot after jump shot, why? Because no one - outside of Lowry - can create their own shot. The Raptors are 1-17 versus teams over .500 - that speaks volumes!

                  Your post is everything that has gone on in Toronto for 7 years and I have been guilty of in the past as well: one big excuse after another. At some point promises and potential have to become something more than hot air.... and heaven knows there is no shortage of hot air rising from the ACC. Yes there is progress but there is hardly

                  The bottom line is the Raptors record is what they are. The "11 games leading in the 4th" argument is no different than the start of the year when the refrain was "It is only 11 games in to the season guys!" Their performance in extremely important games against Philly and Milwaukee - after starting the year 4-19 - are indicative of what they are: a lottery team (*with no pick!*) and a first round ceiling at best.

                  I hate to tell you but this kind of silly reactionism is not the cause for the lack of playoff appearances, it is the belief that everything is gumdrops and jelly beans in Raptorland and the team is on the path to success at worst and greatness at best.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Cleveland was in the same boat and they are not finished rebuilding.

                    The difference is Cleveland didn't cut corners. They were not just bad, they were awful. They have also been lucky but they have created their own luck.

                    You comment on half-measures is the answer. The Raptors have not dared to be awful and they have not dared to be great.
                    Cleveland could afford not to cut corners whereas Toronto could not. Before they(Cleveland) went on a rebuilding mode, thanks to Lebron, they were quite a successful team. If I remember correctly, they finished with the best record in the East 2 or 3 times and made the Eastern Conf. final a couple of times. On the whole, they had about 5 successful years. When a team enjoys such success, it is reasonable for it to expect it's fans to be patient while a rebuild takes place. We all know what Toronto went through during that time.

                    As far as the 'rebuild' is concerned, correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard anyone from the Raps. brass claim that they are not in 'rebuild mode'. Not his exact words but BC has said that after spending a year making a culture change, creating some cap space and getting a good pick(Ross-not bad for 8), they are now in the next stage of the 'rebuild'. This means that the 'rebuild' is not complete only it's not in the initial stage.

                    While I do agree that handing DD the extension has handicapped the team financially, I also believe that some flexibility is being created and we will hear about it shortly. In Lowry, Jose, Bargnani to name a few, we have some trade-able assets, so I have a good feeling about this.
                    Attitude Is A Choice.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      Cleveland could afford not to cut corners whereas Toronto could not. Before they(Cleveland) went on a rebuilding mode, thanks to Lebron, they were quite a successful team. If I remember correctly, they finished with the best record in the East 2 or 3 times and made the Eastern Conf. final a couple of times. On the whole, they had about 5 successful years. When a team enjoys such success, it is reasonable for it to expect it's fans to be patient while a rebuild takes place. We all know what Toronto went through during that time.

                      As far as the 'rebuild' is concerned, correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard anyone from the Raps. brass claim that they are not in 'rebuild mode'. Not his exact words but BC has said that after spending a year making a culture change, creating some cap space and getting a good pick(Ross-not bad for 8), they are now in the next stage of the 'rebuild'. This means that the 'rebuild' is not complete only it's not in the initial stage.

                      While I do agree that handing DD the extension has handicapped the team financially, I also believe that some flexibility is being created and we will hear about it shortly. In Lowry, Jose, Bargnani to name a few, we have some trade-able assets, so I have a good feeling about this.
                      1st paragraph: The fact Toronto had NO success during Bosh's last 2 years in Toronto and then he left was the perfect opportunity to rebuild properly. Colangelo fought this tooth and nail only to succumb and buy in for less than a year.

                      2nd paragraph: I really don't care about Colangelo's words. The guy's interviews are about as meaningful and worthwhile as a sack of poop (although part of that is keeping cards close to the chest). His actions speak volumes: he was ready to sign Nash, he traded away a lottery pick with playoff protections, he signed role players to large deals. That does not appear to be someone who is still in rebuild mode. The reality is he thought Bargnani was his star (so did I for the record) and built a team around his star - only the star is not a star.

                      I hope your last paragraph is correct. Unfortunately we are not privy to the texts and phone calls and can only discuss what we currently see. But like I said, I hope you are right. I think another 3 drafts/2 seasons and this team could be ready for the big time - assuming they acquire picks and keep the cap space for 2015.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        There is a lot here to respond to.

                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        Who is talking getting the number one pick? Who is talking becoming the worst team in the league? I believe the conversation here is cash out veterans with any sort of value or cash out veterans with little value for veterans with even less value in exchange for prospects and picks.

                        Can you show me ED's defense? DeRozan is an average starter with a star contract. I agree Ross could be scary... he might also just be what he is. JV may be a franchise centre but what if he isn't?

                        Your third paragraph shows you did not get the point or understand the thread: who wants to trade away the young players currently on the roster? JV and TR are definitely keepers. DD's contract makes him a keeper same with Fields - desired or not. Acy looks like he can give 12 mins of hustle and energy each night. ED has his flaws right now but he is still cheap and making progress. Amir Johnson is a reserve big man every team would love to have.

                        The Raptors are playing their young guys big minutes and they should keep doing that. But instead of hoping this group of youth continues to develop and get better to all-star levels, why not get more youth and promising players that may actually have a chance at being an all-star. Most all-star talent in this league is known at a very early stage in their careers. Irving and Griffin are recent examples #1's who are all-stars by their second year. But there are a host of other players who become all stars early who were not #1 picks. The point is all-star talent tends to identify itself early. The more young guys you get, the more chance of hitting that lottery gold whether it is early lottery or mid first round. The one thing that Stefanski and Colangelo do exceptionally well is draft, so why not build to their strengths? Even in your post of maybes, possibilities, and ifs there is still no certainty when it comes to the talent currently on the roster. And, worst case scenario, lets say all these picks and prospects don't deliver the all-star and we continue to have a cast of TR's, DD's, ED's, AJ's, LF's, etc. then what? Well, that is when you can cash some assets (rookie contracts and picks) out to get that talent. Toronto is currently team filled with promising but not necessarily spectacular players, minimal draft picks, and overpaid role players. Overall they lack talent and financial flexibility - the worst combination possible!
                        OK so the message here is we have not yet found any gurenteed all stars so we should keep doing everything we can to amass young talent. Fair enough. So where are all of these guys going to get playing time to develop into all-stars? If we get a 1st overall guy who is an instant star, then great, but you said that isn't the aim here. So if we have a bunch of guys who may or may not be stars that we need to give minutes too, isn't that going to lead to none of them actually developping properly? All of these later picks who became stars, like Rondo for example, needed to get put into a starting roll to show that they were great. Then there is roster space, since I'm assuming that you want to keep some veterans fo the young guys to play with and learn from. How many more young potential all-stars can we add, who all need 24 minutes a game? I'm not saying you're wrong that we shouldn't add more good prospects, and maybe we'll get lucky and one of them will end up being awesome, but at some point you have to say enough is enough and start building to win instead of just collecting early to mid level draft picks.

                        I'm also not saying we are not rebuilding anymore which is the premis of this thread. I am saying that we have added all of the youth we should at one time and it's time to start seeing if there is something there.

                        Here is a news flash: 11 games with a fourth quarter lead and ending up losing (not to mention the games up by 20 and lost) is in fact a sign of a lack of talent. Great talent can find a way to overcome poor execution. Essentially your argument is if the Raptors don't turn over the ball down the stretch, run every set perfectly, and stop the other team from scoring, they will win. Well, yeah, no shit. But the problem is the really good teams (and most often the ones with the stars) lock it down on defense when it matters most and have a player who can create something from nothing. In case you have not noticed, the NBA is a stars league. The stars are promoted and shine when the game matters most. The Raptors have no one who can step up when a play breaks down or the defense becomes suffocating. Teams plan for DD and he disappears - and the Raptors broadcasters act as if this is a good thing! The defense collapses on the lanes and the Raps are forced to take jump shot after jump shot, why? Because no one - outside of Lowry - can create their own shot. The Raptors are 1-17 versus teams over .500 - that speaks volumes!
                        The Raptors are a jump shooting team, and I agree that it is due to having no one who can penetrate or consistently make their own shot. The thing is, why is a team that can't penetrate the 11th most efficient team in terms of offense and first over the last 20? I've read people saying that when teams lock down on us we can't get a shot off, and I think that's bull shit. We get away from our game plan, and we have guys jack up stupid shots, and that has nothing to do with the other team. I say it again, this is not a talent problem, it is a problem of guys losing focus down the stretch and playing hero ball in a system that is designed for team play. It's Alan Anderson taking 5 rediculous shots in overtime instead of moving the ball around until something opens up. The problem with us when we play good teams is that they don't lose focus, regardless if they are a superstar team or not, they execute their game plan with consistency. The Pacers don't have a superstar, Paul George, while an all-star, is not that much better than Derozan and is hardly a super elite guy, but they get it done by executing their offense late in games. They are disciplined and well coached, but they are not a star driven team.

                        Your post is everything that has gone on in Toronto for 7 years and I have been guilty of in the past as well: one big excuse after another. At some point promises and potential have to become something more than hot air.... and heaven knows there is no shortage of hot air rising from the ACC. Yes there is progress but there is hardly

                        The bottom line is the Raptors record is what they are. The "11 games leading in the 4th" argument is no different than the start of the year when the refrain was "It is only 11 games in to the season guys!" Their performance in extremely important games against Philly and Milwaukee - after starting the year 4-19 - are indicative of what they are: a lottery team (*with no pick!*) and a first round ceiling at best.
                        I'm not excusing anything. This team has enough talent to compete with any team in the league, they have shown that numerous times. They lose games because they aren't disciplined, which is a correctible coaching issue. I think they have a ceiling in the playoffs, and even still have a very small chance of getting in this year if they get hot again.

                        I hate to tell you but this kind of silly reactionism is not the cause for the lack of playoff appearances, it is the belief that everything is gumdrops and jelly beans in Raptorland and the team is on the path to success at worst and greatness at best.
                        Everything isn't gumdrops and jellybeans, but now is the time for getting good veterens to build around what we have. More picks and prospects will not make this team into a contender: finally getting something through a trade or free agency will. Lowry was a start and a step in the right direction. Now it's time to see what we can make out of this core. Maybe we'll fail and have to start again, but that isn't so different than what your suggesting we do now.
                        "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                        -Churchill

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          hateslosing wrote: View Post
                          There is a lot here to respond to.



                          OK so the message here is we have not yet found any gurenteed all stars so we should keep doing everything we can to amass young talent. Fair enough. So where are all of these guys going to get playing time to develop into all-stars? If we get a 1st overall guy who is an instant star, then great, but you said that isn't the aim here. So if we have a bunch of guys who may or may not be stars that we need to give minutes too, isn't that going to lead to none of them actually developping properly? All of these later picks who became stars, like Rondo for example, needed to get put into a starting roll to show that they were great. Then there is roster space, since I'm assuming that you want to keep some veterans fo the young guys to play with and learn from. How many more young potential all-stars can we add, who all need 24 minutes a game? I'm not saying you're wrong that we shouldn't add more good prospects, and maybe we'll get lucky and one of them will end up being awesome, but at some point you have to say enough is enough and start building to win instead of just collecting early to mid level draft picks.

                          I'm also not saying we are not rebuilding anymore which is the premis of this thread. I am saying that we have added all of the youth we should at one time and it's time to start seeing if there is something there.
                          The Raptors as is are a lottery team. In the quest for more picks plus their own (unfortunately not this year unless it goes top 3 which you never know) luck can and usually does lead to a top 3 pick.

                          Guys get minutes who work hard and produce. Nothing wrong with healthy competition. There are enough minutes to go around: cut DD back as he clearly hits a wall every season, do not play the MP/AA's of the world, Fields is a role player - 20 mins max, cut out the 2 PG lineups.

                          The Raptors have 5 young guys (ED, TR, DD, JV, QA), a young role players moving forward (LF), and 9 veterans. The Raps veterans should be 2-3 guys like JL3, Gray, AA - solid professionals, good character, min salary, hard workers - and a young veteran or two like Amir. That is it. Just because you are young doesn't make you of less character. Hard work and work ethic are traits you have or you don't - you don't need veterans to show that. You need veterans to show what it takes to survive and stay in the league.

                          Rookie contracts are going to be a valuable commodity moving forward. I don't think you can have too many as Houston has showed.


                          hateslosing wrote: View Post
                          The Raptors are a jump shooting team, and I agree that it is due to having no one who can penetrate or consistently make their own shot. The thing is, why is a team that can't penetrate the 11th most efficient team in terms of offense and first over the last 20? I've read people saying that when teams lock down on us we can't get a shot off, and I think that's bull shit. We get away from our game plan, and we have guys jack up stupid shots, and that has nothing to do with the other team. I say it again, this is not a talent problem, it is a problem of guys losing focus down the stretch and playing hero ball in a system that is designed for team play. It's Alan Anderson taking 5 rediculous shots in overtime instead of moving the ball around until something opens up. The problem with us when we play good teams is that they don't lose focus, regardless if they are a superstar team or not, they execute their game plan with consistency. The Pacers don't have a superstar, Paul George, while an all-star, is not that much better than Derozan and is hardly a super elite guy, but they get it done by executing their offense late in games. They are disciplined and well coached, but they are not a star driven team.
                          Quality of the opponents have been weak (13 under .500 in last 20 games) and 12 at home.

                          Paul George is THAT much better than DD. He passes, defends, rebounds, shoots. George is also a year younger.

                          hateslosing wrote: View Post
                          I'm not excusing anything. This team has enough talent to compete with any team in the league, they have shown that numerous times. They lose games because they aren't disciplined, which is a correctible coaching issue. I think they have a ceiling in the playoffs, and even still have a very small chance of getting in this year if they get hot again.
                          The Raptors competing with any team in the league is not the problem and for the record I agree with you on that. The problem is the Raps don't have enough talent to beat any team in the league. It might be semantics on my part but for the Raptors to beat the best of the best they need to play their best game while the really good team needs to have an off night. When we start comparing the best Raptors game versus the best (insert really good team here) game, well, then the problem is evident. Do not underestimate teams playing to the level of their competition.


                          hateslosing wrote: View Post
                          Everything isn't gumdrops and jellybeans, but now is the time for getting good veterens to build around what we have. More picks and prospects will not make this team into a contender: finally getting something through a trade or free agency will. Lowry was a start and a step in the right direction. Now it's time to see what we can make out of this core. Maybe we'll fail and have to start again, but that isn't so different than what your suggesting we do now.
                          What assets do the Raptors have to get these veterans via trade? There is a reason the Raps are not a great team and other teams don't want the veterans off bad teams unless they are expiring.

                          What free agent is coming to Toronto at this point in time? (I am not one of those "no one will come here because it is Canada" btw). Steve Nash wouldn't even sign at this time because it is all about perceived chance to win and money (not in that order).

                          What cap space do the Raptors have at this time? As of now they have $58M on the books for next season and likely around $52M when options and amnesty factored in.


                          The final bold sentence is the problem. If it fails - and it likely will based on current path - it is another forced rebuild and wasted opportunity for acquiring more talent via draft/trade/free agency while TR and JV and anyone coming after are still on rookie deals. Now is not the time to start looking to win, 2 more seasons, 3 more drafts (13,14,15), do the rebuild RIGHT.

                          The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Colangelo has been doing the same thing over and over for years and the results are not changing.

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                          • #43
                            Here is my whole take in a very short sentence on the whole take other teams shit for prospects/picks and accumulation of young talent:

                            Raptors have 3 more seasons before extensions (and the restricted FA that goes along with it) kick in for TR and JV; it is a 3year window starting now.

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                            • #44
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              I would ask @RaptorsMR how fans could possibly consider "another" rebuild, considering that there has never been a proper rebuild completed in the first place.

                              The fans were urging for a proper rebuild to be done immediately upon Bosh's departure, but it was delayed, then accelerated. I think this team needs to do "a" proper rebuild, not "another" one.


                              TOP 10 SIGNS YOUR TEAM IS NOT DOING A PROPER REBUILD

                              10. It only lasts 1 season; the season your new prized draft pick is playing overseas!

                              9. The 3 key holdovers on the roster, who all have significant weaknesses (talent/heart/age/contract status), are all still on the team nearly 3 years after the rebuild [should have] started (DeRozan, Bargnani, Calderon)!

                              8. One of those 3 key holdovers was rewarded with a huge contract extension, despite not proving he's worth it, less than a month into the season following the draft in which the #8 overall pick was used to select his replacement!

                              7. The key offseason signing heading into the 2nd season of the true rebuild was a gross overpayment for an unproven player coming off a disastrous season, who was signed less for what he brings to the table and more in half-baked attempt to block another team from trading for a player they had no business pursuing in the first place!

                              6. Despite having 3 PFs who are all capable of starting and multiple positions that require immediate upgrading, nothing proactive has been done to either clear the logjam at one position, or address the weaknesss at other positions; nothing has been legitimately done to address the glaring weakness at the SF position, which has been a black-hole of suckage since the last franchise player left town!

                              5. The rebuilding plan was accelerated, seemingly so that old vets and D-league castoffs can get sizeable chunks of playing time, rather than giving young players the opportunity to develop... all in a foolhearty attempt to make a highly improbable run at the 8th seed for the playoffs!

                              4. A future 1st round pick (not just any 1st round pick, but one that ties-up all future 1st round picks from being used as tradeable assets for up to six years) is traded for a shoot-first PG with a reputation for having a me-first attitude, to replace a veteran PG who's witnessed 3 other shoot-first/me-first PGs get run out of town!

                              3. In the 1st season of the true rebuild - a lockout shortened season with a new coach, no training camp and the #5 overall pick from the past draft playing overseas - the team used washed-up vets and D-league scrubs to scratch-and-claw their way to several extra 'character/culture building' victories, costing them a legitmate chance at a top-6 draft pick in a loaded draft!

                              2. The team makes signing a nearly washed-up 38-year old who's greatest benefit is to the team's marketing department, their #1 priority in only the 2nd offseason of the rebuild!

                              1. The "I don't know how to do a proper rebuild" GM is in charge of the alleged rebuild!!!
                              Ding ding ding!

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                              • #45
                                It seems that everyone is upset at the state of this current Raptors team. Excellent, not long now until the man behind this gets the boot.

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