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Thread: CNNSI Grades the same as ESPN C- for Raps

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Default CNNSI Grades the same as ESPN C- for Raps

    Full article below. Detroit got an A for its salary dump and Memphis got B+.

    http://nba.si.com/2013/01/31/grizzli...2_a8&eref=sihp

    TORONTO RAPTORS: C-

    Incoming: Rudy Gay, Hamed Haddadi
    Outgoing: Jose Calderon, Ed Davis, a 2013 second-round pick and cash

    Letís start with the good news: The Point Forward has advocated since at least December that Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo should trade Jose Calderon in advance of this yearís deadline because there was no good reason for Calderon to re-sign in Toronto this summer. Something was better than nothing, the simple logic went.

    OK, now the bad news: this wasnít exactly what we had in mind. At all. The Raptors are taking a massive plunge in acquiring Gay, who is set to be paid $37.1 million over the next two seasons. There are situations in which that type of financial commitment to Gay could make sense; Toronto just isnít one of them, not with big commitments already made to Andrea Bargnani, Landry Fields, and Amir Johnson, plus a large new deal kicking in for DeMar DeRozan next season. Letís not forget: Kyle Lowry is due for a raise relatively soon, too.

    While Gay certainly addresses a position of need at the three, his shot-happy ways are likely to create friction alongside the likes of Bargnani and DeRozan, who also require shots and touches. Given that the available small forward options were Fields, Mickael Pietrus and Linas Kleiza, drastically overpaying for average-ish results probably doesnít sound that bad to Raptors fans, but the duplication of skill sets among key players and the lack of distribution-minded playmakers is going to become an issue quickly.

    The quality of this deal, then, hinges on whether Gay can have a transforming, superstar-like impact. There are plenty of doubters who will say the answer is a flat ďnoĒ because his numbers have flat-lined in recent years, his shooting percentages (40.8 percent overall and 31.0 percent on threes) leave much to be desired, and his 14.3 Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is mediocre at best. Thereís no question Gay will see a significant uptick in his numbers as he shifts from being one of many options in Memphis to becoming the clear No. 1 guy in Toronto, but this boils down to whether or not you want him to be the guy taking 20+ shots a night if the quality of those shots donít improve significantly from the ones heís taken over the last four or five years.

    There are other questions too. Does he make his teammates better? Heís never averaged more than three assists per game. Can he mesh with Bargnani, another perimeter chucker, once he returns from injury? That seems highly unlikely. Does he possess the personality type to lead a young team to new heights? Heís regarded as a good teammate, without question, but he wasnít necessarily the emotional leader in Memphis. The biggest question mark: If his commitment to excellence was sometimes doubted in Memphis, a solid playoff team in recent years, how will he respond to a stiffer challenge in Toronto? The answer to that one wonít come in the immediate aftermath of this trade, which will likely spark some big nights, but in the dog days down the stretch.

    This move has the overwhelming feel of an oft-criticized executive desperate to make a splashy shake-up that relieve some of the heat during another lottery season. Will this buy Colangelo more time? Perhaps. Will this move make Toronto a playoff team next season? Probably not. Will it make for an expensive roster that is unlikely to deliver good value? Almost without a doubt. Does it force the Raptors to ship out out Bargnani? Hopefully, for the Raptorsí fan baseís sake, but that will likely prove easier said than done, especially in the short term.

    Toronto appears to have gotten worked on the minor details of this trade too. Surely Memphis fought hard for Davisí inclusion, but why go further than that? Ken Berger of CBSSports.com reports that Haddadi, making $1.3 million this year, is likely to be bought out, adding to the expense. Thatís not horrible, and the salaries must match, but that should have been reason enough for Toronto to not include a pick or cash, let alone both. Itís worth noting that second-round picks can be sold for upwards of $2 million these days. The Grizzlies just kept reaching into Colangeloís wallet when he had his head turned.

    ~~
    Winners and Losers (excerpts for Raps purposes only).

    Rudy Gay: Loser. Expectations are bound to be sky-high in basketball-mad Toronto and he wonít have much proven help in the short-term.

    Rudy Gayís fantasy owners: Winners. It will be a shock if he doesnít wind up averaging 20+ points per game for the rest of his stay in Toronto.

    Rudy Gayís All-Star prospects: Winner. He just might crack the 2014 All-Star Game if he gets his shooting numbers back on track and puts up a monster scoring figure in the weaker Eastern Conference. The frontcourt competition is significantly less in the East compared to the West.

    Raptors coach Dwane Casey: Loser. Heís going to need to petition the league to allow his team to play with two basketballs at the same time on offense.

    Andrea Bargnani: Loser. No particular reason this time, just generally speaking. Just kidding. The writing on the wall for his future in Toronto just gets bigger and bigger.

    Kyle Lowry: Winner. He doesnít need to answer questions about whose job it is and he is on track to have all the leverage once heís a free agent in 2014.

    Terrence Ross: Loser (?). The promising Raptors rookie has been averaging 17+ minutes per game this year. Can the Raptors still squeeze out meaningful minutes for him with Gay and DeRozan getting paid big dollars?

    ~~

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    The one thing that concerns me about this deal (in a basketball sense, not fiscally speaking) is how this affects T. Ross. I really like his game and think he has the tools to be the best of the 3 wingers on this team. Hopefully he still gets lots of playing time.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Ross is the sole reason that I am expecting at least one of demar/fields/anderson to be traded before the deadline

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    I very much doubt that they can trade Fields or Demar. Demar might be movable next year if he plays well, but I'm fairly certain we are stuck with Fields until his deal expires. Anderson is definitely a guy I can see having value at the deadline. A low cost, smart player who would do very well on a contender.

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    when is peitrus getting waved

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    The one thing that concerns me about this deal (in a basketball sense, not fiscally speaking) is how this affects T. Ross. I really like his game and think he has the tools to be the best of the 3 wingers on this team. Hopefully he still gets lots of playing time.
    Ross was an untouchable in the negotiations. I think that says it all.

    DeRozan is odd man out. Problem I have saying that is I don't know if I think that is real or hope it is real.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    All this sh!tting on the Raps for loss of financial flexibility is a joke. What has cap space done for the Raptors in the past in free agency? The only use for cap space would be to take awful contracts for picks which I would not have opposed but whatever. The real tell on how this plays out is when we see what happens to DeRozan and Bargnani.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote SI.com wrote:
    Andrea Bargnani: Loser. No particular reason this time, just generally speaking.
    HAHAHAHA This is terribly mean, but hilarious none the less.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    HAHAHAHA This is terribly mean, but hilarious none the less.
    I knew Rap-Repub fans would like that.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    All this sh!tting on the Raps for loss of financial flexibility is a joke. What has cap space done for the Raptors in the past in free agency? The only use for cap space would be to take awful contracts for picks which I would not have opposed but whatever. The real tell on how this plays out is when we see what happens to DeRozan and Bargnani.
    I think the issue with the flexibility is that this team still isn't that good, and now we lack the flexibility to make future moves. Can we move Bargnani now and still take on a bad deal with a good pick? I'm not sure we can (we'll have to run the numbers). I don't think anyone is fooling themselves into thinking the cap space for for free agents.

    Think of it this way, with Fields, Demar and Gay, we now have 3 wing players that are all regarded as over-paid and are all likely "untradable" (in the traditional sense. If we can trade Hedo, anyone can be traded). For 3 wingers that can't shoot that well and make up over $30 million in committment next year (I didn't check the numbers, but thats my calculation off the top of my head), it just seems like perhaps this wasn't the best move.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Ross is the sole reason that I am expecting at least one of demar/fields/anderson to be traded before the deadline
    I would expect it to be Anderson...at least in terms of odds....If a Bargs trade happens, look for AA to be an added piece to any such deal. The thing is his salary is so low, even if a team doesn't want him, they cna take him and waive him.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think the issue with the flexibility is that this team still isn't that good, and now we lack the flexibility to make future moves. Can we move Bargnani now and still take on a bad deal with a good pick? I'm not sure we can (we'll have to run the numbers). I don't think anyone is fooling themselves into thinking the cap space for for free agents.

    Think of it this way, with Fields, Demar and Gay, we now have 3 wing players that are all regarded as over-paid and are all likely "untradable" (in the traditional sense. If we can trade Hedo, anyone can be traded). For 3 wingers that can't shoot that well and make up over $30 million in committment next year (I didn't check the numbers, but thats my calculation off the top of my head), it just seems like perhaps this wasn't the best move.
    I agree, the flexibility isn't about having cap space to sign guys, it's about making it much more difficult to move assets and make an upgrade. If some of our wings are indeed overpaid, it means we're likely only to trade them in moves where we don't get much of value back. IF we are clearly lacking pieces to be more than just a borderline playoff team, how the hell will we add them??? And all this without even having solved the Bargs issue yet, and as you say, makes it a lot harder to accept taking another bad contract back...

    Oh, and yeah, you're roughly right on the numbers....they will be making more than 30 mill next season between them...and that number escalates...

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Here is part of whart CBS Sports said about the new Raps lineup.
    "...For the time being, the Raptors potentially have a line-up of Lowry, Ross, DeRozan, Gay, and Valanciunas once everybody is healthy. The bench isn't ideal yet, but the structure of what the Raptors need to do with this line-up is apparent.

    They need to cause chaos. That five-man line-up is one that can pressure the ball on the perimeter, protect the rim, and turn stops and turnovers into quick baskets the other way. Dwane Casey isn't the type of coach that likes to push the ball a ton (Raptors are 24th in the NBA in pace) but they are a team that benefits best when they're playing quick basketball without rushing."

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ey...o-get-rudy-gay

    I agree with this assessment. This could make for crazy fun basketball if Casey adjusts to his existing resources. Ross, Lowry, Derozan, JV and Gay all love to run. Chaos is right.

    We'll have to see how it turns out.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think the issue with the flexibility is that this team still isn't that good, and now we lack the flexibility to make future moves. Can we move Bargnani now and still take on a bad deal with a good pick? I'm not sure we can (we'll have to run the numbers). I don't think anyone is fooling themselves into thinking the cap space for for free agents.

    Think of it this way, with Fields, Demar and Gay, we now have 3 wing players that are all regarded as over-paid and are all likely "untradable" (in the traditional sense. If we can trade Hedo, anyone can be traded). For 3 wingers that can't shoot that well and make up over $30 million in committment next year (I didn't check the numbers, but thats my calculation off the top of my head), it just seems like perhaps this wasn't the best move.
    I wrote threads and threads and threads on flexibility that lead to nothing.

    We don't know what kind of deals are out there. The Raptors got an upper tier SF who is overpaid for a promising PF who couldn't stop anyone. If Rudy Gay was paid $12-13M this is a non-issue because Memphis doesn't trade him.

    As you said, free agency is a non-starter and there was no free agent available better than Gay this summer.

    I am cautiously optimistic (and I feel confident I'll get burned on that) but I want to see what happens next.

    Lost in all of this is the Raptors gave up their 3rd best prospect while keeping the top 2 in JV and TR.

    And heaven help us all if the Raptors actually get a top 3 pick this year because they will be a playoff team next year.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Sorry to change topics, but just curious how much you guys think Ed Davis would command once his rookie scale contract is up? Could that be something to consider when guaging this trade? I would think he'd command more than Amir or Fields putting him around $8 Million a season. When you put that up against Gay's contract and consider that you are filling a position of need at SF for a player (ED) that is a duplicate of Amir, albeit with more upside, and that you already are paying Andrea whom occupies the same position....Thoughts?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I wrote threads and threads and threads on flexibility that lead to nothing.

    We don't know what kind of deals are out there. The Raptors got an upper tier SF who is overpaid for a promising PF who couldn't stop anyone. If Rudy Gay was paid $12-13M this is a non-issue because Memphis doesn't trade him.

    I am cautiously optimistic (and I feel confident I'll get burned on that) but I want to see what happens next.
    I read and agreed with each and every one of those threads, unfortunately Colangelo isn't on the forum...(or is he?).

    I agree that we only can get Gay because of his contract, but perhaps Gay wasn't the right target. Maybe we wait a bit longer and the Pacers move Granger ($13 million) for the exact same package? It's hard to say.

    I neither love or hate the deal. I hate that we are a capped out team that might break .500. I love that we added talent.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    The move in isolation warrants a C- based on the cap situation. But if we somehow find ways to trade/dump/amnesty Bargnani, Kleiza, DeRozan and/or Fields, the picture looks a lot brighter.

    I'm excited about a core of Lowry, Gay, Jonas and Ross (and maybe even Amir).

    A Lowry/Gay pairing might be enticing enough to attract a 3rd banana this summer....Millsap perhaps???
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I read and agreed with each and every one of those threads, unfortunately Colangelo isn't on the forum...(or is he?).

    I agree that we only can get Gay because of his contract, but perhaps Gay wasn't the right target. Maybe we wait a bit longer and the Pacers move Granger ($13 million) for the exact same package? It's hard to say.

    I neither love or hate the deal. I hate that we are a capped out team that might break .500. I love that we added talent.
    I remember a thread around the start of the season, that had a poll for which SF the Raptors should target. I voted for Gay then and I would still rather have him (down season, big contract and all) instead of guys like Granger, Iguodala, Deng, Ilyasova, etc...

    I think he's a great player and, with a few more moves, Toronto could very quickly become a perennial playoff team.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Sorry to change topics, but just curious how much you guys think Ed Davis would command once his rookie scale contract is up? Could that be something to consider when guaging this trade? I would think he'd command more than Amir or Fields putting him around $8 Million a season. When you put that up against Gay's contract and consider that you are filling a position of need at SF for a player (ED) that is a duplicate of Amir, albeit with more upside, and that you already are paying Andrea whom occupies the same position....Thoughts?
    Davis' numbers were destined to drop with Bargnani's arrival. That I'm sure of. He wouldn't have maintained his current pace.

    And in Memphis, I don't see him getting more than 20 mpg (at best). I just can't see him establishing himself as anything more than a backup PF.

    We FINALLY cashed in on an overvalued player.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    One thing to keep in mind here is that the Raptors are not the only team out there with expiring contracts. There are several teams out there that have a guy like Calderon that they're hoping to get something instead of nothing. If we can find a deal where we get such a player, then the flexibility (albeit a very small wiggle room) of an expiring contract returns.

    With all these "crazies" saying Rudy Gay is basically the same as DeRozan, here's hoping there are owners out there dumb enough to believe this. DeRozan contract is bad, but if BC can spin it in such a way as to say "Hey look, he's the same as Gay but cheaper and younger!", we might have some options.
    Last edited by ebrian; Thu Jan 31st, 2013 at 11:11 AM.
    your pal,
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