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Thread: CNNSI's view on Colangelo's plan in wake of Gay Deal

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Calderon wasn't in the team's long-term plans.

    Davis/Amir are both young PFs with very similar style games - they make each other redundant.

    Gay is only 26, so he is now part of the team's young core, but at a position that was sorely lacking.

    Financial impact aside, the Raps traded a backup PG on an expiring contract and a redundant backup PF for one of the top 10-15 SFs in the league.

    Toronto now has good young core of players at more positions than they did before the trade
    C: Valanciunas
    PF: Johnson
    SF: Gay
    SG: Ross, Fields
    PG: Lowry

    Plus, it's almost guaranteed that the trading isn't done yet. I think Bargnani is 99% gone and I would hope that options to trade DeRozan would also be exhausted. I also hope that Anderson is cashed in while his value is peaked. Once all the moves are done, it will just make this Gay trade look even better.
    Agrede with everything. We traded 2 players we didn't need for 1 we SORELY needed.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post

    That would still be a happy reprieve from our constant lottery ways. Ultimately, I'd be ok being mildly competitive for the next 3 years, then blowing it up if need be. We need some playoff games to boost morale.
    This bugs me a bit though, because it has clouded the long term future of the team a lot. It could just be a lot of false hope that does nothing in the long run. Morale only matters on the team, and they probably wouldn't like being a mediocre team that gets beat in the 1st round a couple of times.

    A lot will be said with BC's next move. If Bargs is traded and we have to take on a useless, bad salary, we are in the selling hope or false hope cycle. BC will have fans believing we are a good team...just one or two moves from something special, but basically incapable of actually making such a move and taking that next step. If it brings back something the team needs...say a vet with real championship experience, like Pau, or a vet with almost as much experience, but more upside, like Millsap...or relieves capspace (both Pau and Millsap do that, as I'd be ok with Pau's bloated contract for only a season), and if it doesn't bring back a useful player, minimum a 1st rd pick without also tacking on a terrible salary....then we might be on the path to actually winning.

    In my mind, there is actually only one logical reason to make this trade: BC believes Ross and JV will be very special, and that Gay won't decline for another 6-7 years. He wants them to build chemistry and still convince Gay to re-sign as a 2nd or 3rd option for something like $8-10 mill a year...BC knows this sacrifices any chance to build on the current team, but believes this team will struggle to add a significant FA (which is fair, because FA is a crapshoot....usually best reserved for rounding out a roster than building a core), that we'd still be at least mediocre enough without Gay to not have a chance at a high/top lottery pick, and so believes the next chance to re-model is in 3 years or so, anyway, when they'll be deciding what to do with JV and Ross, and clearing money.

    Basically, this deal works if Bargs is turned into anything useful, and anything other than another bad contract. And it works if it convinces Gay to be a stay for less money when he's up for a new deal...If Ross and JV are potential all-stars, and frankly I could see either one being a better all around player than Gay relative to position, they are the future, but the future of the team has to look good for them to want to stay.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Gman wrote: View Post
    Wow, talk about writing in a vacuum. I appreciate the glass half empty attitude but at least acknowledge there's some f*cking water in the glass. This is a little ridiculous. Gay is having a down year because Memphis's entire philosophy is to pound it inside to their bigs and then Gay ends up being relegated to a spot up shooter which is not his strength. He's a cutter and slasher extraordinaire...

    Let's acknowledge that we have one of the most athletic teams in the NBA. That Calderon was the wrong half court offence running point guard for the new identity. That Lowry running this offence on the fast break is going to create havoc for other teams. You want an uptempo fun team to watch...we've got it. No question.

    Does Rudy Gay have an onerous contract? Hell yeah...and how else were we going to get a name? I hear Lebron is just pining to come to Toronto. Do you remember the snort of derision that Dwayne Wade gave when he was asked if he would come to Toronto to join Chris Bosh?

    Colangelo has challenges that other GM's don't. Period. Has he made some egregious mistakes? Hell yeah...is it time for him to go? If after a month of this, and the other moves supposedly coming, we're not markedly better than we were, then absolutely...and he knows it.

    We just got a marquis SF for a point guard who's very good (I'm going to miss you Jose) but his numbers were inflated this year because he started as the schedule got soft. Same thing with Davis. We traded when their trade value was at it's absolute highest...and we filled a position that we've been hankering for for years.

    I just find it hilarious that all these pundits who couldn't tell you what the capital of f*cking Canada is all of a sudden take notice when we get a player that's really good. And boy are they pissed. They are raving as if somebody went in to their house and stole their Michael Jordan autographed jersey.

    Instead of taking a tentative wait and see approach to this they are grabbing their writing pitchforks and burning crosses on the lawn. C'mon, these types of screeds have to put into the ethnocentric context from which they're written...

    Now I will go take my meds and contemplate the assassination of the NBA ref corps.
    I don't think this article has anything to do with a bias against the Raptors or Canada. The truth is Rudy Gay has not had a good season - currently ranks 27th(!!!) among small forwards in PER this season and is outside the top 50 for true shooting % for his position alone. Your comments about him being reduced to a spot up shooter are incorrect; he lead the Grizzlies in usage rate and in field goal attempts by a decent margin.

    The biggest problem is that even if he comes in and plays lights out, it's hard to see the team being better than a 7-10 seed and they will have very little options to get over that next hump.

  4. #24
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This bugs me a bit though, because it has clouded the long term future of the team a lot. It could just be a lot of false hope that does nothing in the long run. Morale only matters on the team, and they probably wouldn't like being a mediocre team that gets beat in the 1st round a couple of times.

    A lot will be said with BC's next move. If Bargs is traded and we have to take on a useless, bad salary, we are in the selling hope or false hope cycle. BC will have fans believing we are a good team...just one or two moves from something special, but basically incapable of actually making such a move and taking that next step. If it brings back something the team needs...say a vet with real championship experience, like Pau, or a vet with almost as much experience, but more upside, like Millsap...or relieves capspace (both Pau and Millsap do that, as I'd be ok with Pau's bloated contract for only a season), and if it doesn't bring back a useful player, minimum a 1st rd pick without also tacking on a terrible salary....then we might be on the path to actually winning.

    In my mind, there is actually only one logical reason to make this trade: BC believes Ross and JV will be very special, and that Gay won't decline for another 6-7 years. He wants them to build chemistry and still convince Gay to re-sign as a 2nd or 3rd option for something like $8-10 mill a year...BC knows this sacrifices any chance to build on the current team, but believes this team will struggle to add a significant FA (which is fair, because FA is a crapshoot....usually best reserved for rounding out a roster than building a core), that we'd still be at least mediocre enough without Gay to not have a chance at a high/top lottery pick, and so believes the next chance to re-model is in 3 years or so, anyway, when they'll be deciding what to do with JV and Ross, and clearing money.

    Basically, this deal works if Bargs is turned into anything useful, and anything other than another bad contract. And it works if it convinces Gay to be a stay for less money when he's up for a new deal...If Ross and JV are potential all-stars, and frankly I could see either one being a better all around player than Gay relative to position, they are the future, but the future of the team has to look good for them to want to stay.
    The trade could work to keep both Gay (26) & Lowry (26/27) in Toronto long-term, to grow with Valanciunas (20), Ross (21/22), Amir (25) and Fields (24).

    Obviously DeRozan (23) could still be part of that core group, but I hope he's traded for a starting PF, allowing Johnson to slide back into the backup PF / 3rd-big role.

    Bargnani being traded for anything positive - young prospects, draft picks, expiring contracts - would be a huge win at this point. It would also negate the impact of Gay's contract on the cap situation, making it essentially a moot point in argument against the trade.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The trade could work to keep both Gay (26) & Lowry (26/27) in Toronto long-term, to grow with Valanciunas (20), Ross (21/22), Amir (25) and Fields (24).

    Obviously DeRozan (23) could still be part of that core group, but I hope he's traded for a starting PF, allowing Johnson to slide back into the backup PF / 3rd-big role.

    Bargnani being traded for anything positive - young prospects, draft picks, expiring contracts - would be a huge win at this point. It would also negate the impact of Gay's contract on the cap situation, making it essentially a moot point in argument against the trade.
    My concern with that core is will it win games? Do they have enough outside shooting or open up the lanes for their 3 slashers (Lowry, Demar, Gay)? I don't know the advanced stats on Gay, but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening.

    If Casey can make it work then great, but I worry that the team build is moving away from the grind it out defence team to the up-tempo team that sells tickets but loses games (I wonder where MLSE get that model from?).

  6. #26
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I don't think this article has anything to do with a bias against the Raptors or Canada. The truth is Rudy Gay has not had a good season - currently ranks 27th(!!!) among small forwards in PER this season and is outside the top 50 for true shooting % for his position alone. Your comments about him being reduced to a spot up shooter are incorrect; he lead the Grizzlies in usage rate and in field goal attempts by a decent margin.

    The biggest problem is that even if he comes in and plays lights out, it's hard to see the team being better than a 7-10 seed and they will have very little options to get over that next hump.
    Yes absolutely, Gay gets a lot of shots dumped on him at the end of the clock. Have you watched a lot of Memphis? And because he's shooting from range which is not his strength his shooting percentage is way down. Not his number of attempts...which if they were in slashing and transition situations would be much higher.

    And you are talking about a team that hasn't had a small forward in a long time and yet we are competitive with really good teams most of the time. Sometimes you just need a slight adjustment either through addition or subtraction to see a profound change. The point I'm making is that everybody is talking out their ass right now until we actually see what the on court production will look like.

    Was I a tad too optimistic? Possibly but I was refuting Valdemort from CNNSI. A guy who was basically saying that our entire team has cancer of the testicles and they need to be put out to pasture and shot...and then split them up selling some of them for dog food and some of them to the glue factory.

    I think out of the two of us, (me and the CNNSI guy), mine has a larger foothold in reality.

    And I appreciate your naivety about the States and how they're grain fed their own superiority since birth and yet are perfectly rationale in evaluating situations like this. And Santa Claus and the Toothfairy want to sell you a bridge.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    My concern with that core is will it win games? Do they have enough outside shooting or open up the lanes for their 3 slashers (Lowry, Demar, Gay)? I don't know the advanced stats on Gay, but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening.

    If Casey can make it work then great, but I worry that the team build is moving away from the grind it out defence team to the up-tempo team that sells tickets but loses games (I wonder where MLSE get that model from?).
    That's why I hope DeRozan gets traded. Not only would it return a starting PF, but it would allow Fields (short-term) / Ross (long-term) to start at SG. I think a wing combo of Gay/Ross has the potential to be lethal in the future!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Gman wrote: View Post
    Yes absolutely, Gay gets a lot of shots dumped on him at the end of the clock. Have you watched a lot of Memphis? And because he's shooting from range which is not his strength his shooting percentage is way down. Not his number of attempts...which if they were in slashing and transition situations would be much higher.

    And you are talking about a team that hasn't had a small forward in a long time and yet we are competitive with really good teams most of the time. Sometimes you just need a slight adjustment either through addition or subtraction to see a profound change. The point I'm making is that everybody is talking out their ass right now until we actually see what the on court production will look like.

    Was I a tad too optimistic? Possibly but I was refuting Valdemort from CNNSI. A guy who was basically saying that our entire team has cancer of the testicles and they need to be put out to pasture and shot...and then split them up selling some of them for dog food and some of them to the glue factory.

    I think out of the two of us, (me and the CNNSI guy), mine has a larger foothold in reality.

    And I appreciate your naivety about the States and how they're grain fed their own superiority since birth and yet are perfectly rationale in evaluating situations like this. And Santa Claus and the Toothfairy want to sell you a bridge.
    A little over the top in my opinion but it's yours so that's fine. You say that Gay struggled because of the style of play that Memphis employed, but isn't that the style that we were building towards? BC hired Casey to coach a defensive team. He brought in players that fit that mold too.

    I personally think that Granger is the better fit ($$ not with-standing, I still take Granger) but that train has sailed and it's time to move on. Can Gay elevate his game and not just his stats in Toronto? I hope so, but this roster has no balance right now, which is the general point of the SI article, that Colangelo is haphazard in putting together the team. Which is an assessment that, for the time being, seems bang on.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    That's why I hope DeRozan gets traded. Not only would it return a starting PF, but it would allow Fields (short-term) / Ross (long-term) to start at SG. I think a wing combo of Gay/Ross has the potential to be lethal in the future!
    That would fix it but I am skeptical that Demar can be traded any time soon. If the league views him as overpaid at $9.5 million per year, then what player are you getting in return? Who would even trade for him? I honestly don't know but I think we are with Demar for at least 2 or 3 more years before he is movable, and by then where are we?

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    That's why I hope DeRozan gets traded. Not only would it return a starting PF, but it would allow Fields (short-term) / Ross (long-term) to start at SG. I think a wing combo of Gay/Ross has the potential to be lethal in the future!
    Best case scenario might be that Ross starts and Demar goes to the 6th man role. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    -The optimist in me can picture Gay flourishing in Toronto. It only takes eyes to see he has the tools to be an MVP-type player, and by all reports he's a good guy. But something wasn't working in Memphis. I watched him in person on Monday night and on TV a hundred times. For all his skill, length and grace there were clearly times he was not going as hard as he could. He has not been an efficient player of late -- how much of that has been because he's unwilling to go hard, at the rim, on the break, off the curl? One take is that he was simply dispirited. Maybe a change of scene, and being in a city where he will be the focal point, will do wonders for him. With the right mindset, he could destroy defenses. And of course the mega-talent who doesn't play super hard in Toronto will bring up Vince Carter stories. But that's not the insult you might think it is: His reputation took a beating, but Carter has long been excellent.

    -For the Raptors, Davis had served as insurance against Andrea Bargnani, who has been both injured and in trade rumors. Does Davis' departure assure that Bargnani -- who has not been a standout player this season at all -- will have a bigger role moving forward? If so, that, and the loss of Calderon, could make it tough for the Raptors to get much better anytime soon, no matter how well Gay plays
    From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay
    I'm over the negative american media. They don't seem to be critical of two max players coming off the bench in Pau and Amar'e so whatever. If somehow BC can turn a Bargnani into a bag of balls and DeRozan into a Millsap, all is well for me.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay
    Not sure why anyone would attempt to evaluate this trade assuming the Raptors' roster is a final product.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star saints91's Avatar
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    It's amazing that our fans are writing us off as a mediocre team for years to come.

    A. we have no clue how this your core will turn out. We have three rookies and numberous players not yet in their prime.

    B. Just recently reports are coming out that current players (Durant) were Raptor fans during the Carter years. Winning has a trickle effect. Maybe this team doesn't win a championship ,but they could be a strong playoff team that is fun to watch. This fanchise has been asscoiated with losing, it would be nice to change this view. In time we might be able to attract high end free agents.

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    Quite simply a make or break trade for BC. Any other subsequent trade he makes won't be tantamount to this.

    I am very dubious as his track record of big trades as a GM of the raptors have been one-sided beatdowns for out trade partners. Meanwhile his draft record isn't too shabby.

    I am against Ross losing time, plain and simple. He is the biggest bright spot of the year, and yea I am more into slow rebuild, not rolling the dice. I think defense and rebounding are the biggest fundamental attribute to turning your team around without star studded talent like a Durant, James, Harden, Paul, etc.

    I think building through the draft is the sane way for such an undesirable market like Toronto, that is how the Raptors will get a franchise-changing impact perennial all-star player.

  16. #36
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote JasonS wrote: View Post
    Quite simply a make or break trade for BC. Any other subsequent trade he makes won't be tantamount to this.

    I am very dubious as his track record of big trades as a GM of the raptors have been one-sided beatdowns for out trade partners. Meanwhile his draft record isn't too shabby.

    I am against Ross losing time, plain and simple. He is the biggest bright spot of the year, and yea I am more into slow rebuild, not rolling the dice. I think defense and rebounding are the biggest fundamental attribute to turning your team around without star studded talent like a Durant, James, Harden, Paul, etc.

    I think building through the draft is the sane way for such an undesirable market like Toronto, that is how the Raptors will get a franchise-changing impact perennial all-star player.
    Bargnani (#1 in 2006), DeRozan (#9 in 2009), Davis (#13 in 2010), Valanciunas (#5 in 2011) and Ross (#8 in 2012)...

    Do you really think they would have been any better over the next 3-7 years if they just continued on as is, as opposed to trading an expiring contract and backup player for top-tier SF???

    They HAVE used the draft to build the young core of their team, whether directly as keeper pieces (Valnciunas & Ross) or indirectly as trade bait (Davis and hopefully DeRozan & Bargnani, as well as a future 1st round pick for Lowry).

    TORONTO CORE
    C: Valanciunas (draft pick)
    PF: Johnson (trade)
    SF: Gay (traded draft pick Davis for him)
    SG: Ross (draft pick)
    SG: DeRozan (draft pick)
    SG: Fields (signing)
    PG: Lowry (traded future draft pick for him)

    Only Amir & Fields were NOT acquired using 1st round draft picks, but they are both projected to be 2nd unit players.

    If DeRozan and/or Bargnani can be traded for a legit, talented, young starting PF, then the entire starting unit will have been acquired either directly or indirectly via Toronto's 1st round draft picks!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 31st, 2013 at 03:44 PM.

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    I really don't think Ross is going to get his minutes squeezed that much, like the original article suggests. Most of Gay's minutes will come at the expense of Alan Anderson, who's game is not dissimilar from Gay's but with less passing and even more enthusiasm for questionable shots. And far less consistency. I'd expect to see Anderson's minutes drop from 28 down to about 10, Fields to drop from 25 down to 20 with some of his minutes coming at PF, Ross to drop from 22 to 20, and DeRozan dropping from 35 down to about 32. That alone creates about 27 minutes for Gay, and he can pick up another 7-10 minutes at the expense of the thin PF spot.

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I really don't think Ross is going to get his minutes squeezed that much, like the original article suggests. Most of Gay's minutes will come at the expense of Alan Anderson, who's game is not dissimilar from Gay's but with less passing and even more enthusiasm for questionable shots. And far less consistency. I'd expect to see Anderson's minutes drop from 28 down to about 10, Fields to drop from 25 down to 20 with some of his minutes coming at PF, Ross to drop from 22 to 20, and DeRozan dropping from 35 down to about 32. That alone creates about 27 minutes for Gay, and he can pick up another 7-10 minutes at the expense of the thin PF spot.
    +1. i think ross will be first wing off the bench and if he is playing poorly checked by alan. i also think fields is our back up 4 now.
    For The Win

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    ...but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening....
    I will give Demar this. Every year he has come back to the team after the summer with an added or improved aspect of his game. This year he has improved his dribble, added a (26% ) three point shot, improved his rebounding and improved his assists. Once the roster is solidified, (next year after AB trade/Kleiza amnesty), and he is no longer the prime target of other teams defensice efforts, I believe his game will improve yet again.

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I will give Demar this. Every year he has come back to the team after the summer with an added or improved aspect of his game. This year he has improved his dribble, added a (26% ) three point shot, improved his rebounding and improved his assists. Once the roster is solidified, (next year after AB trade/Kleiza amnesty), and he is no longer the prime target of other teams defensice efforts, I believe his game will improve yet again.
    I agree that Demar does come back each year improved, and perhaps he will improve his passing. I tried but cannot find the original article or the thread posting about this (it was a month or two ago) but he is statistically one of the least likely players to pass once he starts his drive. Without spacing, there may not be enough lanes for Demar, Gay and Lowry to drive. They will need to keep their head up to avoid charges or bowling into a sea of bodies and taking bad shots. They will need to learn to find each other on the drive and find spacing in other ways.

    Is it possible they will adapt? Yes, but it might take a while and have some growing pains. Is everyone going to be patient and happy when it takes into next season, or will people just start calling for Demar to be traded since he no longer "fits"?

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