Agrede with everything. We traded 2 players we didn't need for 1 we SORELY needed.CalgaryRapsFan wrote:
Agrede with everything. We traded 2 players we didn't need for 1 we SORELY needed.
"I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder
This bugs me a bit though, because it has clouded the long term future of the team a lot. It could just be a lot of false hope that does nothing in the long run. Morale only matters on the team, and they probably wouldn't like being a mediocre team that gets beat in the 1st round a couple of times.
A lot will be said with BC's next move. If Bargs is traded and we have to take on a useless, bad salary, we are in the selling hope or false hope cycle. BC will have fans believing we are a good team...just one or two moves from something special, but basically incapable of actually making such a move and taking that next step. If it brings back something the team needs...say a vet with real championship experience, like Pau, or a vet with almost as much experience, but more upside, like Millsap...or relieves capspace (both Pau and Millsap do that, as I'd be ok with Pau's bloated contract for only a season), and if it doesn't bring back a useful player, minimum a 1st rd pick without also tacking on a terrible salary....then we might be on the path to actually winning.
In my mind, there is actually only one logical reason to make this trade: BC believes Ross and JV will be very special, and that Gay won't decline for another 6-7 years. He wants them to build chemistry and still convince Gay to re-sign as a 2nd or 3rd option for something like $8-10 mill a year...BC knows this sacrifices any chance to build on the current team, but believes this team will struggle to add a significant FA (which is fair, because FA is a crapshoot....usually best reserved for rounding out a roster than building a core), that we'd still be at least mediocre enough without Gay to not have a chance at a high/top lottery pick, and so believes the next chance to re-model is in 3 years or so, anyway, when they'll be deciding what to do with JV and Ross, and clearing money.
Basically, this deal works if Bargs is turned into anything useful, and anything other than another bad contract. And it works if it convinces Gay to be a stay for less money when he's up for a new deal...If Ross and JV are potential all-stars, and frankly I could see either one being a better all around player than Gay relative to position, they are the future, but the future of the team has to look good for them to want to stay.
I don't think this article has anything to do with a bias against the Raptors or Canada. The truth is Rudy Gay has not had a good season - currently ranks 27th(!!!) among small forwards in PER this season and is outside the top 50 for true shooting % for his position alone. Your comments about him being reduced to a spot up shooter are incorrect; he lead the Grizzlies in usage rate and in field goal attempts by a decent margin.
The biggest problem is that even if he comes in and plays lights out, it's hard to see the team being better than a 7-10 seed and they will have very little options to get over that next hump.
The trade could work to keep both Gay (26) & Lowry (26/27) in Toronto long-term, to grow with Valanciunas (20), Ross (21/22), Amir (25) and Fields (24).
Obviously DeRozan (23) could still be part of that core group, but I hope he's traded for a starting PF, allowing Johnson to slide back into the backup PF / 3rd-big role.
Bargnani being traded for anything positive - young prospects, draft picks, expiring contracts - would be a huge win at this point. It would also negate the impact of Gay's contract on the cap situation, making it essentially a moot point in argument against the trade.
My concern with that core is will it win games? Do they have enough outside shooting or open up the lanes for their 3 slashers (Lowry, Demar, Gay)? I don't know the advanced stats on Gay, but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening.
If Casey can make it work then great, but I worry that the team build is moving away from the grind it out defence team to the up-tempo team that sells tickets but loses games (I wonder where MLSE get that model from?).
Go Raps Go
In Casey We Trust
"The idea isn't to block every shot, the idea is to make your opponent think you might" - Bill Russell
Yes absolutely, Gay gets a lot of shots dumped on him at the end of the clock. Have you watched a lot of Memphis? And because he's shooting from range which is not his strength his shooting percentage is way down. Not his number of attempts...which if they were in slashing and transition situations would be much higher.
And you are talking about a team that hasn't had a small forward in a long time and yet we are competitive with really good teams most of the time. Sometimes you just need a slight adjustment either through addition or subtraction to see a profound change. The point I'm making is that everybody is talking out their ass right now until we actually see what the on court production will look like.
Was I a tad too optimistic? Possibly but I was refuting Valdemort from CNNSI. A guy who was basically saying that our entire team has cancer of the testicles and they need to be put out to pasture and shot...and then split them up selling some of them for dog food and some of them to the glue factory.
I think out of the two of us, (me and the CNNSI guy), mine has a larger foothold in reality.
And I appreciate your naivety about the States and how they're grain fed their own superiority since birth and yet are perfectly rationale in evaluating situations like this. And Santa Claus and the Toothfairy want to sell you a bridge.
That's why I hope DeRozan gets traded. Not only would it return a starting PF, but it would allow Fields (short-term) / Ross (long-term) to start at SG. I think a wing combo of Gay/Ross has the potential to be lethal in the future!
A little over the top in my opinion but it's yours so that's fine. You say that Gay struggled because of the style of play that Memphis employed, but isn't that the style that we were building towards? BC hired Casey to coach a defensive team. He brought in players that fit that mold too.
I personally think that Granger is the better fit ($$ not with-standing, I still take Granger) but that train has sailed and it's time to move on. Can Gay elevate his game and not just his stats in Toronto? I hope so, but this roster has no balance right now, which is the general point of the SI article, that Colangelo is haphazard in putting together the team. Which is an assessment that, for the time being, seems bang on.
Go Raps Go
In Casey We Trust
That would fix it but I am skeptical that Demar can be traded any time soon. If the league views him as overpaid at $9.5 million per year, then what player are you getting in return? Who would even trade for him? I honestly don't know but I think we are with Demar for at least 2 or 3 more years before he is movable, and by then where are we?
Go Raps Go
In Casey We Trust
Best case scenario might be that Ross starts and Demar goes to the 6th man role. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening.
Go Raps Go
In Casey We Trust
From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.-The optimist in me can picture Gay flourishing in Toronto. It only takes eyes to see he has the tools to be an MVP-type player, and by all reports he's a good guy. But something wasn't working in Memphis. I watched him in person on Monday night and on TV a hundred times. For all his skill, length and grace there were clearly times he was not going as hard as he could. He has not been an efficient player of late -- how much of that has been because he's unwilling to go hard, at the rim, on the break, off the curl? One take is that he was simply dispirited. Maybe a change of scene, and being in a city where he will be the focal point, will do wonders for him. With the right mindset, he could destroy defenses. And of course the mega-talent who doesn't play super hard in Toronto will bring up Vince Carter stories. But that's not the insult you might think it is: His reputation took a beating, but Carter has long been excellent.
-For the Raptors, Davis had served as insurance against Andrea Bargnani, who has been both injured and in trade rumors. Does Davis' departure assure that Bargnani -- who has not been a standout player this season at all -- will have a bigger role moving forward? If so, that, and the loss of Calderon, could make it tough for the Raptors to get much better anytime soon, no matter how well Gay plays
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay
I'm over the negative american media. They don't seem to be critical of two max players coming off the bench in Pau and Amar'e so whatever. If somehow BC can turn a Bargnani into a bag of balls and DeRozan into a Millsap, all is well for me.
“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
Not sure why anyone would attempt to evaluate this trade assuming the Raptors' roster is a final product.
"I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder
It's amazing that our fans are writing us off as a mediocre team for years to come.
A. we have no clue how this your core will turn out. We have three rookies and numberous players not yet in their prime.
B. Just recently reports are coming out that current players (Durant) were Raptor fans during the Carter years. Winning has a trickle effect. Maybe this team doesn't win a championship ,but they could be a strong playoff team that is fun to watch. This fanchise has been asscoiated with losing, it would be nice to change this view. In time we might be able to attract high end free agents.
Quite simply a make or break trade for BC. Any other subsequent trade he makes won't be tantamount to this.
I am very dubious as his track record of big trades as a GM of the raptors have been one-sided beatdowns for out trade partners. Meanwhile his draft record isn't too shabby.
I am against Ross losing time, plain and simple. He is the biggest bright spot of the year, and yea I am more into slow rebuild, not rolling the dice. I think defense and rebounding are the biggest fundamental attribute to turning your team around without star studded talent like a Durant, James, Harden, Paul, etc.
I think building through the draft is the sane way for such an undesirable market like Toronto, that is how the Raptors will get a franchise-changing impact perennial all-star player.
Bargnani (#1 in 2006), DeRozan (#9 in 2009), Davis (#13 in 2010), Valanciunas (#5 in 2011) and Ross (#8 in 2012)...
Do you really think they would have been any better over the next 3-7 years if they just continued on as is, as opposed to trading an expiring contract and backup player for top-tier SF???
They HAVE used the draft to build the young core of their team, whether directly as keeper pieces (Valnciunas & Ross) or indirectly as trade bait (Davis and hopefully DeRozan & Bargnani, as well as a future 1st round pick for Lowry).
TORONTO CORE
C: Valanciunas (draft pick)
PF: Johnson (trade)
SF: Gay (traded draft pick Davis for him)
SG: Ross (draft pick)
SG: DeRozan (draft pick)
SG: Fields (signing)
PG: Lowry (traded future draft pick for him)
Only Amir & Fields were NOT acquired using 1st round draft picks, but they are both projected to be 2nd unit players.
If DeRozan and/or Bargnani can be traded for a legit, talented, young starting PF, then the entire starting unit will have been acquired either directly or indirectly via Toronto's 1st round draft picks!
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 31st, 2013 at 03:44 PM.
I really don't think Ross is going to get his minutes squeezed that much, like the original article suggests. Most of Gay's minutes will come at the expense of Alan Anderson, who's game is not dissimilar from Gay's but with less passing and even more enthusiasm for questionable shots. And far less consistency. I'd expect to see Anderson's minutes drop from 28 down to about 10, Fields to drop from 25 down to 20 with some of his minutes coming at PF, Ross to drop from 22 to 20, and DeRozan dropping from 35 down to about 32. That alone creates about 27 minutes for Gay, and he can pick up another 7-10 minutes at the expense of the thin PF spot.
+1. i think ross will be first wing off the bench and if he is playing poorly checked by alan. i also think fields is our back up 4 now.
For The Win
I will give Demar this. Every year he has come back to the team after the summer with an added or improved aspect of his game. This year he has improved his dribble, added a (26%) three point shot, improved his rebounding and improved his assists. Once the roster is solidified, (next year after AB trade/Kleiza amnesty), and he is no longer the prime target of other teams defensice efforts, I believe his game will improve yet again.
I agree that Demar does come back each year improved, and perhaps he will improve his passing. I tried but cannot find the original article or the thread posting about this (it was a month or two ago) but he is statistically one of the least likely players to pass once he starts his drive. Without spacing, there may not be enough lanes for Demar, Gay and Lowry to drive. They will need to keep their head up to avoid charges or bowling into a sea of bodies and taking bad shots. They will need to learn to find each other on the drive and find spacing in other ways.I will give Demar this. Every year he has come back to the team after the summer with an added or improved aspect of his game. This year he has improved his dribble, added a (26%
Is it possible they will adapt? Yes, but it might take a while and have some growing pains. Is everyone going to be patient and happy when it takes into next season, or will people just start calling for Demar to be traded since he no longer "fits"?
Go Raps Go
In Casey We Trust
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