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Thread: CNNSI's view on Colangelo's plan in wake of Gay Deal

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    A little over the top in my opinion but it's yours so that's fine. You say that Gay struggled because of the style of play that Memphis employed, but isn't that the style that we were building towards? BC hired Casey to coach a defensive team. He brought in players that fit that mold too.

    I personally think that Granger is the better fit ($$ not with-standing, I still take Granger) but that train has sailed and it's time to move on. Can Gay elevate his game and not just his stats in Toronto? I hope so, but this roster has no balance right now, which is the general point of the SI article, that Colangelo is haphazard in putting together the team. Which is an assessment that, for the time being, seems bang on.
    No, with Lowry running the point we are going to go from a half court plodding offence to a high octane transition offence. As different as it can be...and we will be running up the court with two of the most athletic wings in the game breaking to the basket.

    Granger is not the better fit because you have no idea whatsoever how he will return after the injury. He's a better spot up shooter but not a better player at all.

    And Gay actually is a very underrated wing defender and rebounder so I don't think this totally takes us out of Casey's comfort range defensively.

    How is this roster not more balanced than it was? Our weakest position was SF and we now have a Marquis SF. We had too many point guards so we traded one. We had a long jam at the bigs that doesn't feel that way because of all of the injuries...

    Colangelo needs to trade some of our wings to shore up the PG position and then lets see what else he would do. I think we're a more complete team today then we were before but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Gman wrote: View Post
    No, with Lowry running the point we are going to go from a half court plodding offence to a high octane transition offence. As different as it can be...and we will be running up the court with two of the most athletic wings in the game breaking to the basket.

    Granger is not the better fit because you have no idea whatsoever how he will return after the injury. He's a better spot up shooter but not a better player at all.

    And Gay actually is a very underrated wing defender and rebounder so I don't think this totally takes us out of Casey's comfort range defensively.

    How is this roster not more balanced than it was? Our weakest position was SF and we now have a Marquis SF. We had too many point guards so we traded one. We had a long jam at the bigs that doesn't feel that way because of all of the injuries...

    Colangelo needs to trade some of our wings to shore up the PG position and then lets see what else he would do. I think we're a more complete team today then we were before but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
    Before this trade, our line-up was Jose, Demar, Fields, Davis and Amir. Jose was the deep shooting threat that gave Demar the lanes to slash, while Fields worked off ball and Davis and Amir ran high Pick and Roll and cleaned the boards. Basically they could spread the floor by having Jose and Amir run the high PNR, with Davis crashing glass, Fields cutting baseline and Demar rotating out for the kick out then drive or mid-range jumper.

    Now our line-up is Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani (supposed to be back any day now), and Amir. Lowry is a better player than Jose, but Jose was the better perimeter shooter. Lowry, Demar and Gay all are at their best when attacking the basket. 3 slashers and the only shooter is Bargnani, who hasnt been able to hit anything this year. Lowry works best as a drive and kick PG, but this team doesn't have good perimeter shooters. So all we can do is drive and drive, then drive some more. It wont take long for defences to pack the lane and take away the driving lanes, forcing us to settling for long two-point shots aka the worst shot in basketball, statistically speaking.

    It's is true that Granger might not be the same player, but point before was that he stylistically would be a better fit and the team could have waited to see how his situation played out. Plus Granger is a couple million per cheaper than Gay and less overlap with Demar.

    Gay is a capable defender, but for this line-up to work they need a deep threat or a low post scorer. This roster currently has neither. For this to work, Casey will likely have to play the up-tempo small ball style that Philly used last season.

    Is Rudy Gay a marquee SF? (Note that his name or rank isn't Marquis). I don't know that he is or isn't. I think he could be in the right situation. A starting lineup with Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani and Amir/Val isn't that situation. We need a solid spot up jump shooter to spread the defence and open up the driving lanes. Terrence Ross is better suited for that role, but will the Raps move Demar to the bench? Ideally yes, but I just don't have faith in that happening.

    Gay is makes our team more talented, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll be better. The 2000's Pistons (a team someone mentioned we could emulate since we struggle to get/retain star players) were made up as the sum greater than the parts, but that only worked because the players were complimentary. Multiple shooters, mutiple defenders and very well coached. We don't have enough of either to be great. Is it a step in the right direction? Very likely yes, but as is, this roster will struggle much more than people think. As a previous thread pointed out, the Raps have been carried by their ridiculously efficient offence of late (108 points per 100 possessions) while still being a fairly poor defensive team.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Before this trade, our line-up was Jose, Demar, Fields, Davis and Amir. Jose was the deep shooting threat that gave Demar the lanes to slash, while Fields worked off ball and Davis and Amir ran high Pick and Roll and cleaned the boards. Basically they could spread the floor by having Jose and Amir run the high PNR, with Davis crashing glass, Fields cutting baseline and Demar rotating out for the kick out then drive or mid-range jumper.

    Now our line-up is Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani (supposed to be back any day now), and Amir. Lowry is a better player than Jose, but Jose was the better perimeter shooter. Lowry, Demar and Gay all are at their best when attacking the basket. 3 slashers and the only shooter is Bargnani, who hasnt been able to hit anything this year. Lowry works best as a drive and kick PG, but this team doesn't have good perimeter shooters. So all we can do is drive and drive, then drive some more. It wont take long for defences to pack the lane and take away the driving lanes, forcing us to settling for long two-point shots aka the worst shot in basketball, statistically speaking.

    It's is true that Granger might not be the same player, but point before was that he stylistically would be a better fit and the team could have waited to see how his situation played out. Plus Granger is a couple million per cheaper than Gay and less overlap with Demar.

    Gay is a capable defender, but for this line-up to work they need a deep threat or a low post scorer. This roster currently has neither. For this to work, Casey will likely have to play the up-tempo small ball style that Philly used last season.

    Is Rudy Gay a marquee SF? (Note that his name or rank isn't Marquis). I don't know that he is or isn't. I think he could be in the right situation. A starting lineup with Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani and Amir/Val isn't that situation. We need a solid spot up jump shooter to spread the defence and open up the driving lanes. Terrence Ross is better suited for that role, but will the Raps move Demar to the bench? Ideally yes, but I just don't have faith in that happening.

    Gay is makes our team more talented, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll be better. The 2000's Pistons (a team someone mentioned we could emulate since we struggle to get/retain star players) were made up as the sum greater than the parts, but that only worked because the players were complimentary. Multiple shooters, mutiple defenders and very well coached. We don't have enough of either to be great. Is it a step in the right direction? Very likely yes, but as is, this roster will struggle much more than people think. As a previous thread pointed out, the Raps have been carried by their ridiculously efficient offence of late (108 points per 100 possessions) while still being a fairly poor defensive team.
    Kyle Lowry is shooting .399 from the three. Rudy Gay is way better spot up shooter than Landry Field. Defenders will respect him more than they ever did Fields. DeMar should be able to make a better clic of his midrange jumpers since he'll be left open more often. I would rather Amir and JV to start. We already have to many shooters in that starting group.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Kyle Lowry is shooting .399 from the three. Rudy Gay is way better spot up shooter than Landry Field. Defenders will respect him more than they ever did Fields. DeMar should be able to make a better clic of his midrange jumpers since he'll be left open more often. I would rather Amir and JV to start. We already have to many shooters in that starting group.
    You're right that Gay is a better shooter than Fields, but then again basically everyone is a better shooter than Fields right now. I'd put more faith in Popeye Jones to hit a shot than Fields at this point.

    Lowry is a good shooter, but are you suggesting that we take our second best player, who is at heart a drive and kick ball handler and turn him into a spot up shooter? If that is the case, we would have been better off trading Lowry for a legit PF and let Jose be the spot-up shooter.

    Demar can make mid-range jumpers amoung the best of them, but that is fundamentally and league wide recognized as the worst shot in basketball. So in effect, he is the best at playing the least efficiently.

    At the end of the day, we have 3 players in the starting 5 that want the ball so they can drive to the net. If we start Amir and JV, then we have only Lowry that can hit a shot from 20 feet consistently. Amir and JV are going to have to get out of the way (to not clog up the lane) then crash hard to get any chance of an offensive rebound and knowing them, will likely result in a ton of loose ball fouls as they try to crash over defenders already in place on the drive.

    I think the only way this offence works (with this current roster) is if Ross starts and Bargnani plays well to keep defences honest.

  5. #45
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    You're right that Gay is a better shooter than Fields, but then again basically everyone is a better shooter than Fields right now. I'd put more faith in Popeye Jones to hit a shot than Fields at this point.

    Lowry is a good shooter, but are you suggesting that we take our second best player, who is at heart a drive and kick ball handler and turn him into a spot up shooter? If that is the case, we would have been better off trading Lowry for a legit PF and let Jose be the spot-up shooter.

    Demar can make mid-range jumpers amoung the best of them, but that is fundamentally and league wide recognized as the worst shot in basketball. So in effect, he is the best at playing the least efficiently.

    At the end of the day, we have 3 players in the starting 5 that want the ball so they can drive to the net. If we start Amir and JV, then we have only Lowry that can hit a shot from 20 feet consistently. Amir and JV are going to have to get out of the way (to not clog up the lane) then crash hard to get any chance of an offensive rebound and knowing them, will likely result in a ton of loose ball fouls as they try to crash over defenders already in place on the drive.

    I think the only way this offence works (with this current roster) is if Ross starts and Bargnani plays well to keep defences honest.
    You do know that we've only had one real good three point threat the last month in the starting line up. The offensive has been just fine. Kyle Lowry likes to drive yes but, he isn't one dimentional his averages 3 three point field goals a game.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    You do know that we've only had one real good three point threat the last month in the starting line up. The offensive has been just fine. Kyle Lowry likes to drive yes but, he isn't one dimentional his averages 3 three point field goals a game.
    We haven't had a three threat, but it hasn't been as important when the offence was built around ball movement and pick and roll (Jose's specialities). That offence is dead and gone.

    I agree, Kyle isn't one dimensional. In fact, I think he is still the best player on this team, but by adding an overlap of slashers that can't shoot, Lowry is going to find his driving lanes smaller and smaller. Lowry has been playing with Alan Anderson and Terrence Ross, the only two shooters on this team (other than Lowry). Telling Lowry to play the spot up shooter so Gay and Demar can drive is counter-intuitive to his style and what he does best.

    I hope this deal works out, but the styles clash unless we move Demar to the bench for Ross (or even Anderson). No shooters = no lanes. No lanes for the slashers = lots of long twos. Long twos = the worst shot in basketball.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    We haven't had a three threat, but it hasn't been as important when the offence was built around ball movement and pick and roll (Jose's specialities). That offence is dead and gone.

    I agree, Kyle isn't one dimensional. In fact, I think he is still the best player on this team, but by adding an overlap of slashers that can't shoot, Lowry is going to find his driving lanes smaller and smaller. Lowry has been playing with Alan Anderson and Terrence Ross, the only two shooters on this team (other than Lowry). Telling Lowry to play the spot up shooter so Gay and Demar can drive is counter-intuitive to his style and what he does best.

    I hope this deal works out, but the styles clash unless we move Demar to the bench for Ross (or even Anderson). No shooters = no lanes. No lanes for the slashers = lots of long twos. Long twos = the worst shot in basketball.
    It was Jose specialities but Kyle Lowry can run it too. I find that they only ran the pick n roll when the play was falling apart. I feel like we're going to get a lot of easy buckets off are defence. With Lowry and Gay being in the top 20 in steal last couple of years. I really think that Gay's 3 point percentage will go up.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    You're right that Gay is a better shooter than Fields, but then again basically everyone is a better shooter than Fields right now. I'd put more faith in Popeye Jones to hit a shot than Fields at this point.

    Lowry is a good shooter, but are you suggesting that we take our second best player, who is at heart a drive and kick ball handler and turn him into a spot up shooter? If that is the case, we would have been better off trading Lowry for a legit PF and let Jose be the spot-up shooter.

    Demar can make mid-range jumpers amoung the best of them, but that is fundamentally and league wide recognized as the worst shot in basketball. So in effect, he is the best at playing the least efficiently.

    At the end of the day, we have 3 players in the starting 5 that want the ball so they can drive to the net. If we start Amir and JV, then we have only Lowry that can hit a shot from 20 feet consistently. Amir and JV are going to have to get out of the way (to not clog up the lane) then crash hard to get any chance of an offensive rebound and knowing them, will likely result in a ton of loose ball fouls as they try to crash over defenders already in place on the drive.

    I think the only way this offence works (with this current roster) is if Ross starts and Bargnani plays well to keep defences honest.
    Ross starts at SG then DD comes off bench?

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    We haven't had a three threat, but it hasn't been as important when the offence was built around ball movement and pick and roll (Jose's specialities). That offence is dead and gone.

    I agree, Kyle isn't one dimensional. In fact, I think he is still the best player on this team, but by adding an overlap of slashers that can't shoot, Lowry is going to find his driving lanes smaller and smaller. Lowry has been playing with Alan Anderson and Terrence Ross, the only two shooters on this team (other than Lowry). Telling Lowry to play the spot up shooter so Gay and Demar can drive is counter-intuitive to his style and what he does best.

    I hope this deal works out, but the styles clash unless we move Demar to the bench for Ross (or even Anderson). No shooters = no lanes. No lanes for the slashers = lots of long twos. Long twos = the worst shot in basketball.
    Tross and AA can hit the 3.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Ross starts at SG then DD comes off bench?
    1) I don't think Ross is ready to be a full time starting SG in the NBA.
    2) Moving Derozan to the bench is just further proof that Colangelo has created a complete clusterfudge of this roster. Bargnani and Derozan were propped up as the cornerstones of this franchise 3 months ago, now they are coming off the bench and making over $20 million combined starting next season. That is a criminal use of cap space to have that much money tied up in your bench players.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Tross and AA can hit the 3.
    Agreed, but neither is starting, so it doesn't exactly help the lineup of Gay and Demar.

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    Just wouldn't be a normal day if CNNSI printed anything BUT this type of stuff about a Toronto franchise.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    1) I don't think Ross is ready to be a full time starting SG in the NBA.
    2) Moving Derozan to the bench is just further proof that Colangelo has created a complete clusterfudge of this roster. Bargnani and Derozan were propped up as the cornerstones of this franchise 3 months ago, now they are coming off the bench and making over $20 million combined starting next season. That is a criminal use of cap space to have that much money tied up in your bench players.
    Long-term, Ross should be the starter. Short-term, they will play Demar, but his game is ideal for the 6th man role. Instant offence off the bench, while the more well-rounded game of Anderson or Ross fits better with Gay.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Bargnani and Derozan were propped up as the cornerstones of this franchise 3 months ago, now they are coming off the bench and making over $20 million combined starting next season. That is a criminal use of cap space to have that much money tied up in your bench players.
    It's criminal use of cap space regardless of whether they're coming off the bench or not. Bad contracts no matter how you look at them.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Long-term, Ross should be the starter. Short-term, they will play Demar, but his game is ideal for the 6th man role. Instant offence off the bench, while the more well-rounded game of Anderson or Ross fits better with Gay.
    No problem with Ross being the SG long term. My point is that he's not ready for that role today or the rest of the season. He has had some good games, but I feel like he's being overvalued so far this season because he produces highlights that tend to stand out in people's memory. When you take a closer look at his game log, he's really only averaging one above average game for every four or so.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    It's criminal use of cap space regardless of whether they're coming off the bench or not. Bad contracts no matter how you look at them.
    I agree that both are overpaid, one drastically more than the other. But I disagree with the statement that it doesn't matter whether they're coming off the bench or not. DeRozan would have a much easier time earning his $9 million playing the 35 minutes that he does in his current role opposed to swapping roles with Ross.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    No problem with Ross being the SG long term. My point is that he's not ready for that role today or the rest of the season. He has had some good games, but I feel like he's being overvalued so far this season because he produces highlights that tend to stand out in people's memory. When you take a closer look at his game log, he's really only averaging one above average game for every four or so.
    He is extremely inconsistent! His terrible shot selection doesn't help either.

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