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CNNSI's view on Colangelo's plan in wake of Gay Deal

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  • #31
    -The optimist in me can picture Gay flourishing in Toronto. It only takes eyes to see he has the tools to be an MVP-type player, and by all reports he's a good guy. But something wasn't working in Memphis. I watched him in person on Monday night and on TV a hundred times. For all his skill, length and grace there were clearly times he was not going as hard as he could. He has not been an efficient player of late -- how much of that has been because he's unwilling to go hard, at the rim, on the break, off the curl? One take is that he was simply dispirited. Maybe a change of scene, and being in a city where he will be the focal point, will do wonders for him. With the right mindset, he could destroy defenses. And of course the mega-talent who doesn't play super hard in Toronto will bring up Vince Carter stories. But that's not the insult you might think it is: His reputation took a beating, but Carter has long been excellent.

    -For the Raptors, Davis had served as insurance against Andrea Bargnani, who has been both injured and in trade rumors. Does Davis' departure assure that Bargnani -- who has not been a standout player this season at all -- will have a bigger role moving forward? If so, that, and the loss of Calderon, could make it tough for the Raptors to get much better anytime soon, no matter how well Gay plays
    From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay

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    • #32
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.
      http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay
      I'm over the negative american media. They don't seem to be critical of two max players coming off the bench in Pau and Amar'e so whatever. If somehow BC can turn a Bargnani into a bag of balls and DeRozan into a Millsap, all is well for me.
      “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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      • #33
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        From Henry Abbott at espn. He's clearly also confused as to exactly how this will work out for Toronto, it seems.
        http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ading-rudy-gay
        Not sure why anyone would attempt to evaluate this trade assuming the Raptors' roster is a final product.

        Comment


        • #34
          It's amazing that our fans are writing us off as a mediocre team for years to come.

          A. we have no clue how this your core will turn out. We have three rookies and numberous players not yet in their prime.

          B. Just recently reports are coming out that current players (Durant) were Raptor fans during the Carter years. Winning has a trickle effect. Maybe this team doesn't win a championship ,but they could be a strong playoff team that is fun to watch. This fanchise has been asscoiated with losing, it would be nice to change this view. In time we might be able to attract high end free agents.

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          • #35
            Quite simply a make or break trade for BC. Any other subsequent trade he makes won't be tantamount to this.

            I am very dubious as his track record of big trades as a GM of the raptors have been one-sided beatdowns for out trade partners. Meanwhile his draft record isn't too shabby.

            I am against Ross losing time, plain and simple. He is the biggest bright spot of the year, and yea I am more into slow rebuild, not rolling the dice. I think defense and rebounding are the biggest fundamental attribute to turning your team around without star studded talent like a Durant, James, Harden, Paul, etc.

            I think building through the draft is the sane way for such an undesirable market like Toronto, that is how the Raptors will get a franchise-changing impact perennial all-star player.

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            • #36
              JasonS wrote: View Post
              Quite simply a make or break trade for BC. Any other subsequent trade he makes won't be tantamount to this.

              I am very dubious as his track record of big trades as a GM of the raptors have been one-sided beatdowns for out trade partners. Meanwhile his draft record isn't too shabby.

              I am against Ross losing time, plain and simple. He is the biggest bright spot of the year, and yea I am more into slow rebuild, not rolling the dice. I think defense and rebounding are the biggest fundamental attribute to turning your team around without star studded talent like a Durant, James, Harden, Paul, etc.

              I think building through the draft is the sane way for such an undesirable market like Toronto, that is how the Raptors will get a franchise-changing impact perennial all-star player.
              Bargnani (#1 in 2006), DeRozan (#9 in 2009), Davis (#13 in 2010), Valanciunas (#5 in 2011) and Ross (#8 in 2012)...

              Do you really think they would have been any better over the next 3-7 years if they just continued on as is, as opposed to trading an expiring contract and backup player for top-tier SF???

              They HAVE used the draft to build the young core of their team, whether directly as keeper pieces (Valnciunas & Ross) or indirectly as trade bait (Davis and hopefully DeRozan & Bargnani, as well as a future 1st round pick for Lowry).

              TORONTO CORE
              C: Valanciunas (draft pick)
              PF: Johnson (trade)
              SF: Gay (traded draft pick Davis for him)
              SG: Ross (draft pick)
              SG: DeRozan (draft pick)
              SG: Fields (signing)
              PG: Lowry (traded future draft pick for him)

              Only Amir & Fields were NOT acquired using 1st round draft picks, but they are both projected to be 2nd unit players.

              If DeRozan and/or Bargnani can be traded for a legit, talented, young starting PF, then the entire starting unit will have been acquired either directly or indirectly via Toronto's 1st round draft picks!
              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:44 PM.

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              • #37
                I really don't think Ross is going to get his minutes squeezed that much, like the original article suggests. Most of Gay's minutes will come at the expense of Alan Anderson, who's game is not dissimilar from Gay's but with less passing and even more enthusiasm for questionable shots. And far less consistency. I'd expect to see Anderson's minutes drop from 28 down to about 10, Fields to drop from 25 down to 20 with some of his minutes coming at PF, Ross to drop from 22 to 20, and DeRozan dropping from 35 down to about 32. That alone creates about 27 minutes for Gay, and he can pick up another 7-10 minutes at the expense of the thin PF spot.

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                • #38
                  octothorp wrote: View Post
                  I really don't think Ross is going to get his minutes squeezed that much, like the original article suggests. Most of Gay's minutes will come at the expense of Alan Anderson, who's game is not dissimilar from Gay's but with less passing and even more enthusiasm for questionable shots. And far less consistency. I'd expect to see Anderson's minutes drop from 28 down to about 10, Fields to drop from 25 down to 20 with some of his minutes coming at PF, Ross to drop from 22 to 20, and DeRozan dropping from 35 down to about 32. That alone creates about 27 minutes for Gay, and he can pick up another 7-10 minutes at the expense of the thin PF spot.
                  +1. i think ross will be first wing off the bench and if he is playing poorly checked by alan. i also think fields is our back up 4 now.

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                  • #39
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    ...but we have proven in the past that Demar can't/doesn't pass once he starts his drives. With the defences collapsing, Gay will either need to shoot better or Demar will have the pass better. I'm not sure I'm confident in either one happening....
                    I will give Demar this. Every year he has come back to the team after the summer with an added or improved aspect of his game. This year he has improved his dribble, added a (26% ) three point shot, improved his rebounding and improved his assists. Once the roster is solidified, (next year after AB trade/Kleiza amnesty), and he is no longer the prime target of other teams defensice efforts, I believe his game will improve yet again.

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                    • #40
                      Puffer wrote: View Post
                      I will give Demar this. Every year he has come back to the team after the summer with an added or improved aspect of his game. This year he has improved his dribble, added a (26% ) three point shot, improved his rebounding and improved his assists. Once the roster is solidified, (next year after AB trade/Kleiza amnesty), and he is no longer the prime target of other teams defensice efforts, I believe his game will improve yet again.
                      I agree that Demar does come back each year improved, and perhaps he will improve his passing. I tried but cannot find the original article or the thread posting about this (it was a month or two ago) but he is statistically one of the least likely players to pass once he starts his drive. Without spacing, there may not be enough lanes for Demar, Gay and Lowry to drive. They will need to keep their head up to avoid charges or bowling into a sea of bodies and taking bad shots. They will need to learn to find each other on the drive and find spacing in other ways.

                      Is it possible they will adapt? Yes, but it might take a while and have some growing pains. Is everyone going to be patient and happy when it takes into next season, or will people just start calling for Demar to be traded since he no longer "fits"?
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • #41
                        Axel wrote: View Post
                        A little over the top in my opinion but it's yours so that's fine. You say that Gay struggled because of the style of play that Memphis employed, but isn't that the style that we were building towards? BC hired Casey to coach a defensive team. He brought in players that fit that mold too.

                        I personally think that Granger is the better fit ($$ not with-standing, I still take Granger) but that train has sailed and it's time to move on. Can Gay elevate his game and not just his stats in Toronto? I hope so, but this roster has no balance right now, which is the general point of the SI article, that Colangelo is haphazard in putting together the team. Which is an assessment that, for the time being, seems bang on.
                        No, with Lowry running the point we are going to go from a half court plodding offence to a high octane transition offence. As different as it can be...and we will be running up the court with two of the most athletic wings in the game breaking to the basket.

                        Granger is not the better fit because you have no idea whatsoever how he will return after the injury. He's a better spot up shooter but not a better player at all.

                        And Gay actually is a very underrated wing defender and rebounder so I don't think this totally takes us out of Casey's comfort range defensively.

                        How is this roster not more balanced than it was? Our weakest position was SF and we now have a Marquis SF. We had too many point guards so we traded one. We had a long jam at the bigs that doesn't feel that way because of all of the injuries...

                        Colangelo needs to trade some of our wings to shore up the PG position and then lets see what else he would do. I think we're a more complete team today then we were before but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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                        • #42
                          Gman wrote: View Post
                          No, with Lowry running the point we are going to go from a half court plodding offence to a high octane transition offence. As different as it can be...and we will be running up the court with two of the most athletic wings in the game breaking to the basket.

                          Granger is not the better fit because you have no idea whatsoever how he will return after the injury. He's a better spot up shooter but not a better player at all.

                          And Gay actually is a very underrated wing defender and rebounder so I don't think this totally takes us out of Casey's comfort range defensively.

                          How is this roster not more balanced than it was? Our weakest position was SF and we now have a Marquis SF. We had too many point guards so we traded one. We had a long jam at the bigs that doesn't feel that way because of all of the injuries...

                          Colangelo needs to trade some of our wings to shore up the PG position and then lets see what else he would do. I think we're a more complete team today then we were before but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
                          Before this trade, our line-up was Jose, Demar, Fields, Davis and Amir. Jose was the deep shooting threat that gave Demar the lanes to slash, while Fields worked off ball and Davis and Amir ran high Pick and Roll and cleaned the boards. Basically they could spread the floor by having Jose and Amir run the high PNR, with Davis crashing glass, Fields cutting baseline and Demar rotating out for the kick out then drive or mid-range jumper.

                          Now our line-up is Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani (supposed to be back any day now), and Amir. Lowry is a better player than Jose, but Jose was the better perimeter shooter. Lowry, Demar and Gay all are at their best when attacking the basket. 3 slashers and the only shooter is Bargnani, who hasnt been able to hit anything this year. Lowry works best as a drive and kick PG, but this team doesn't have good perimeter shooters. So all we can do is drive and drive, then drive some more. It wont take long for defences to pack the lane and take away the driving lanes, forcing us to settling for long two-point shots aka the worst shot in basketball, statistically speaking.

                          It's is true that Granger might not be the same player, but point before was that he stylistically would be a better fit and the team could have waited to see how his situation played out. Plus Granger is a couple million per cheaper than Gay and less overlap with Demar.

                          Gay is a capable defender, but for this line-up to work they need a deep threat or a low post scorer. This roster currently has neither. For this to work, Casey will likely have to play the up-tempo small ball style that Philly used last season.

                          Is Rudy Gay a marquee SF? (Note that his name or rank isn't Marquis). I don't know that he is or isn't. I think he could be in the right situation. A starting lineup with Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani and Amir/Val isn't that situation. We need a solid spot up jump shooter to spread the defence and open up the driving lanes. Terrence Ross is better suited for that role, but will the Raps move Demar to the bench? Ideally yes, but I just don't have faith in that happening.

                          Gay is makes our team more talented, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll be better. The 2000's Pistons (a team someone mentioned we could emulate since we struggle to get/retain star players) were made up as the sum greater than the parts, but that only worked because the players were complimentary. Multiple shooters, mutiple defenders and very well coached. We don't have enough of either to be great. Is it a step in the right direction? Very likely yes, but as is, this roster will struggle much more than people think. As a previous thread pointed out, the Raps have been carried by their ridiculously efficient offence of late (108 points per 100 possessions) while still being a fairly poor defensive team.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                          • #43
                            Axel wrote: View Post
                            Before this trade, our line-up was Jose, Demar, Fields, Davis and Amir. Jose was the deep shooting threat that gave Demar the lanes to slash, while Fields worked off ball and Davis and Amir ran high Pick and Roll and cleaned the boards. Basically they could spread the floor by having Jose and Amir run the high PNR, with Davis crashing glass, Fields cutting baseline and Demar rotating out for the kick out then drive or mid-range jumper.

                            Now our line-up is Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani (supposed to be back any day now), and Amir. Lowry is a better player than Jose, but Jose was the better perimeter shooter. Lowry, Demar and Gay all are at their best when attacking the basket. 3 slashers and the only shooter is Bargnani, who hasnt been able to hit anything this year. Lowry works best as a drive and kick PG, but this team doesn't have good perimeter shooters. So all we can do is drive and drive, then drive some more. It wont take long for defences to pack the lane and take away the driving lanes, forcing us to settling for long two-point shots aka the worst shot in basketball, statistically speaking.

                            It's is true that Granger might not be the same player, but point before was that he stylistically would be a better fit and the team could have waited to see how his situation played out. Plus Granger is a couple million per cheaper than Gay and less overlap with Demar.

                            Gay is a capable defender, but for this line-up to work they need a deep threat or a low post scorer. This roster currently has neither. For this to work, Casey will likely have to play the up-tempo small ball style that Philly used last season.

                            Is Rudy Gay a marquee SF? (Note that his name or rank isn't Marquis). I don't know that he is or isn't. I think he could be in the right situation. A starting lineup with Lowry, Demar, Gay, Bargnani and Amir/Val isn't that situation. We need a solid spot up jump shooter to spread the defence and open up the driving lanes. Terrence Ross is better suited for that role, but will the Raps move Demar to the bench? Ideally yes, but I just don't have faith in that happening.

                            Gay is makes our team more talented, but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll be better. The 2000's Pistons (a team someone mentioned we could emulate since we struggle to get/retain star players) were made up as the sum greater than the parts, but that only worked because the players were complimentary. Multiple shooters, mutiple defenders and very well coached. We don't have enough of either to be great. Is it a step in the right direction? Very likely yes, but as is, this roster will struggle much more than people think. As a previous thread pointed out, the Raps have been carried by their ridiculously efficient offence of late (108 points per 100 possessions) while still being a fairly poor defensive team.
                            Kyle Lowry is shooting .399 from the three. Rudy Gay is way better spot up shooter than Landry Field. Defenders will respect him more than they ever did Fields. DeMar should be able to make a better clic of his midrange jumpers since he'll be left open more often. I would rather Amir and JV to start. We already have to many shooters in that starting group.
                            @Chr1st1anL

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                            • #44
                              Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              Kyle Lowry is shooting .399 from the three. Rudy Gay is way better spot up shooter than Landry Field. Defenders will respect him more than they ever did Fields. DeMar should be able to make a better clic of his midrange jumpers since he'll be left open more often. I would rather Amir and JV to start. We already have to many shooters in that starting group.
                              You're right that Gay is a better shooter than Fields, but then again basically everyone is a better shooter than Fields right now. I'd put more faith in Popeye Jones to hit a shot than Fields at this point.

                              Lowry is a good shooter, but are you suggesting that we take our second best player, who is at heart a drive and kick ball handler and turn him into a spot up shooter? If that is the case, we would have been better off trading Lowry for a legit PF and let Jose be the spot-up shooter.

                              Demar can make mid-range jumpers amoung the best of them, but that is fundamentally and league wide recognized as the worst shot in basketball. So in effect, he is the best at playing the least efficiently.

                              At the end of the day, we have 3 players in the starting 5 that want the ball so they can drive to the net. If we start Amir and JV, then we have only Lowry that can hit a shot from 20 feet consistently. Amir and JV are going to have to get out of the way (to not clog up the lane) then crash hard to get any chance of an offensive rebound and knowing them, will likely result in a ton of loose ball fouls as they try to crash over defenders already in place on the drive.

                              I think the only way this offence works (with this current roster) is if Ross starts and Bargnani plays well to keep defences honest.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Axel wrote: View Post
                                You're right that Gay is a better shooter than Fields, but then again basically everyone is a better shooter than Fields right now. I'd put more faith in Popeye Jones to hit a shot than Fields at this point.

                                Lowry is a good shooter, but are you suggesting that we take our second best player, who is at heart a drive and kick ball handler and turn him into a spot up shooter? If that is the case, we would have been better off trading Lowry for a legit PF and let Jose be the spot-up shooter.

                                Demar can make mid-range jumpers amoung the best of them, but that is fundamentally and league wide recognized as the worst shot in basketball. So in effect, he is the best at playing the least efficiently.

                                At the end of the day, we have 3 players in the starting 5 that want the ball so they can drive to the net. If we start Amir and JV, then we have only Lowry that can hit a shot from 20 feet consistently. Amir and JV are going to have to get out of the way (to not clog up the lane) then crash hard to get any chance of an offensive rebound and knowing them, will likely result in a ton of loose ball fouls as they try to crash over defenders already in place on the drive.

                                I think the only way this offence works (with this current roster) is if Ross starts and Bargnani plays well to keep defences honest.
                                You do know that we've only had one real good three point threat the last month in the starting line up. The offensive has been just fine. Kyle Lowry likes to drive yes but, he isn't one dimentional his averages 3 three point field goals a game.
                                @Chr1st1anL

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